RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted May 1, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 1, 2021 10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: Agree but many railwaymen used the vernacular word vack-um although that was also probably also a consequence of Regional accentsl as it definitely wasn't universal even on the WR. The term 'loose coupled' applied to any unfitted freight train or part thereof so properly applied to the unfitted part of a train with a fitted head when used in the correct context. The term 'fly shunting' (instead of loose shunting) was used in some early Rule Books, for example it is used in that context in my 1877 GWR/LNWR Joint Rule Book. But by 1904, if not earlier, it had been replaced by the terms 'Loose Shunting' and 'Double Shunting' in the RCH standard Rules (Rule 113) - the earliest Rule Book I have which confirms that is my 1904 GWR Rule Book. Fly shunting was not separately identified in the Rule Book until 1972 when it was transferred from the General Appendix to the Rule Book but it had been defined in the General Appendix since at least February 1911 - that being the earliset dated reference I can find in GWR publications. In some cases it seems the pre-1904 understanding might well have passed down to later generations but from the early 20th century Fly Shunting had been very clearly defined together with a warning about its dangers and the requirement for it only to be undertaken by experienced Shunters. You'd need to be well out of date on your shunting Rules and Regulations to be calling loose (or double) shunting fly shunting - probably because such people had never been involved in fly shunting. However there might be an older derivation as there was a very early GWR everyday term used by some people to describe their local freight trip as 'the fly'. Oddly although it had long been in the Rules the term double shunting was, in my experience, invariably never used in everyday railway conversation. I would be amazed if it didn't. Fly shunting is difficult enough as everything needs to be very carefully timed to do it right. And that means it is really impossible over points worked by a signal box because the Signalman can't see the correct moment to change the points and handsignalling him to do so would cost time that wasn't available It makes perfect sense that a facing point, hand operated and with no facing point lock, is not likely to be on a running line, especially on a fairly busy 4 track line. Such things escaped the 15 year old trainspotter who saw it happen but has learned a bit since. It was mighty exciting seeing a gunpowder van heading for the end of the dock with a bloke jumping up and down with all his weight on the handbrake lever! I did wonder whether that type of shunting with a loaded gunpowder van was covered by any rules. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 1 hour ago, t-b-g said: I did wonder whether that type of shunting with a loaded gunpowder van was covered by any rules. I have visions of some practical joker placing detonator discreetly before they do it and watching the reaction. 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 2, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 2, 2021 12 hours ago, t-b-g said: It makes perfect sense that a facing point, hand operated and with no facing point lock, is not likely to be on a running line, especially on a fairly busy 4 track line. Such things escaped the 15 year old trainspotter who saw it happen but has learned a bit since. It was mighty exciting seeing a gunpowder van heading for the end of the dock with a bloke jumping up and down with all his weight on the handbrake lever! I did wonder whether that type of shunting with a loaded gunpowder van was covered by any rules. RCH Rule 240, footnote 'Loose shunting of vehicles containing explosives is strictly prohibited.' This became part of clause b of Rule 110 in the BR 1950 Rule Book. And fly shunting was a form of loose shunting because the wagon was not attached to a loco while moving (for part of the time) 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 2, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 2, 2021 13 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said: Reminds me of a Yorkshire man I knew who used to talk of 'Arrow ont'Ill. Nobody knew where he meant! Did he mean 30919? That was/is certainly ont'Ill. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post The Johnster Posted May 2, 2021 RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted May 2, 2021 16 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said: I have visions of some practical joker placing detonator discreetly before they do it and watching the reaction. When I first joined the railway as a trainee freight guard at Canton in 1970, I was sent over to Penarth North Curve goods yard, actually on the Penarth Dock branch behind Canton Shed, to pick up what I could about railway work while waiting for the next induction course to begin. This was great fun and I learned more in the first few days than I ever had before or have since. One day, having ridden down to Ferry Road on the 08 with the trip. We came back light engine, and the normal working was for the travelling shunter to operate the ground frame at Grangetown, and the loco to proceed towards Ninian Park Halt to set back into the yard, then run back on an empty through road to pick up the shunter. As we ran into the platform at Ninian Park, with only me and the driver aboard the 08, the driver asked me if I could drive. Not quite catching on and thinking he wanted to talk about cars, I replied in the affirmative. 'Good', he said, 'go and pick George up; I'm going over the cafe for breakfast'. Now alone on the 08, with the ground signal cleared for me to enter the yard, and put on the spot a bit, not wanting to block running lines, I put my foot on the deadman's, put her into reverse, blew the straight air off, and gingerly opened the throttle. The loco began to move in the direction I wanted it to, so I gave her a little more, by the time I passed the shunter's cabin and the little group of blokes standing outside it I'd developed enough confidence to give it a bit of Casey Jones, leaning out of the window in the approved style. It never occurred to me that I was being set up. Down through the empty road and out along the headshunt at the other end to pick George up, and he made no comment about the new driver, being in on the plot of course. By this time I was an old hand top link man, and with consummate professionality and, though I say so myself, not a little panache, started the return journey. The b*ggers had laid detonators in my path and my game was interrupted by a series of loud bangs in rapid succession. I braked to a stop. Well, that was the end of sports, wasn't it, we were all going to get the sack, weren't we, and it was all my fault. White faced, I crossed the footplate expecting to see a pile of smashed wagonry, but there was nothing. George maintained a magificent poker face, and when I returned to 'my' side, there was Ted, the other shunter, pumping up my flat tyre with a bicycle pump, finishing off with a kick to make sure the pressure was right. The next few minutes were filled with a lot of laughing from everybody else and a lot of very bad language from me... 6 13 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmdon Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 On 01/05/2021 at 15:29, The Johnster said: We're drifting a bit, even by my standards... Railway vernacular, both professional and enthusiast, would be a pretty comprehensive subject in it's own right. I learned 'vackum' both on the job and on the Guard's Training Course. The instructor, I've forgotten his name now, was a Yorkshireman who insisted that 'vackum' was the correct way to enunciate this particular word, but as I say I'd already had it drummed into me by local railwaymen. Only scientists, I was told, said 'vacyewum', and they were the b*ggers responsible for the atom bomb... Our Yorkshire instructor had a rather lovely habit of describing ground signals, which we knew as 'dummies', as 'dollies' (actually quite reasonable as signals were on dolls). I recall a yarn of his about a driver who'd 'it a dolly over at Wath wi' an electric'. Trouble at t'mill, it's grim oop north... I started volunteering as a 9 year old on the SVR at the back end of the 80s - they were dollies to us too 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 In the United States they used a method called pole shunting. Either side of the end sill of a wagon or loco they had a poling pocket. A pole around 20 foot in length was positioned between the pocket on the wagon being shunted and the pocket on a wagon or loco on an adjacent track. The loco or moving wagon would then shunt the wagon to be moved on the opposite track. I believe the practice was eventually outlawed but it did last a long time. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted May 3, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3, 2021 34 minutes ago, GWR-fan said: In the United States they used a method called pole shunting. Either side of the end sill of a wagon or loco they had a poling pocket. A pole around 20 foot in length was positioned between the pocket on the wagon being shunted and the pocket on a wagon or loco on an adjacent track. The loco or moving wagon would then shunt the wagon to be moved on the opposite track. I believe the practice was eventually outlawed but it did last a long time. Not only in the US - though I don't think in the North East the wagons had poling pockets. See photo here. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted May 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) There were also various stunts of dubious legality with ropes and cables, I mean aside from using capstans and winches. And of course there was gravity shunting, even with passenger stock at Wellington (Salop). Train from Much Wenlock arrives in down bay, passengers detrain and station work completed, train is set back on to kickback siding on incline. Guard applies handbrake in van, loco uncouples and stands aside out of the way. Guard then releases the vacuum brakes by pulling the isolating cord, marked by a white painted star on the solebar. Once he has the road, he releases the handbrake and the coaches drop back into the bay powered by Newton’s First Law, the handbrake is re-applied, and the loco is called in to the bay to couple on at the other end. Vacuum is connected, brake continuity test performed, tail lamp placed on rear, passengers allowed to board, and we’re right away Much Wenlock! I believe a model of this was featured in MRJ many years ago, with the gravity movement replicated at realistic speed using a flywheel geared to one of the coach axles. Edited May 3, 2021 by The Johnster 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR Chuffer Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Not only in the US The Midland Railway branch terminus at Barnoldswick was authorised to use "chain shunting" on adjacent tracks, similar concept and no pole pockets required. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted May 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2021 Gravity shunting with passenger stock was part & parcel of work at Cowes, Isle of Wight. I never witnessed it myself, but a fair few have recorded themselves. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted May 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2021 Pretty sure that "chain shunting" was used to shunt the mill siding at Ashburton — but this may have been unofficial. I've seen a video of chain shunting being used on an 'O' gauge layout, though I can't remember which one. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR Chuffer Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 15 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said: this may have been unofficial The busy branch was 1 engine in steam and the first train - passenger and/or mixed - would come along with 2 locos. One would be "locked" in the goods yard to shunt the incoming and outgoing wagons for as long as was necessary whilst the other took the outward passenger, returning later to unlock the yard. The chain shunting was written into the local rules in use up to and after WW2 (I've read in someone's memories that worked there at the time) and probably enabled them to get rid of the loco that was based there full time up until WW1. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted May 3, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3, 2021 3 hours ago, The Johnster said: There were also various stunts of dubious legality with ropes and cables, I mean aside from using capstans and winches. And of course there was gravity shunting, even with passenger stock at Wellington (Salop). Train from Much Wenlock arrives in down bay, passengers detrain and station work completed, train is set back on to kickback siding on incline. Guard applies handbrake in van, loco uncouples and stands aside out of the way. Guard then releases the vacuum brakes by pulling the isolating cord, marked by a white painted star on the solebar. Once he has the road, he releases the handbrake and the coaches drop back into the bay powered by Newton’s First Law, the handbrake is re-applied, and the loco is called in to the bay to couple on at the other end. Vacuum is connected, brake continuity test performed, tail lamp placed on rear, passengers allowed to board, and we’re right away Much Wenlock! I believe a model of this was featured in MRJ many years ago, with the gravity movement replicated at realistic speed using a flywheel geared to one of the coach axles. I believe there was a similar arrangement at Holywell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) Sam's Trains has a look at some of the decorated coaches... Edited May 3, 2021 by Free At Last 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 4 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said: Pretty sure that "chain shunting" was used to shunt the mill siding at Ashburton — but this may have been unofficial. I've seen a video of chain shunting being used on an 'O' gauge layout, though I can't remember which one. I've done it on a large O gauge layout. Surprising how many obstacles there can be in the form of signal posts, yard lamps, telegraph poles, location cabinets etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ikcdab Posted May 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2021 58 minutes ago, Free At Last said: Sam's Trains has a look at some of the decorated coaches... Just watched it. They look great! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schooner Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) On 01/05/2021 at 12:29, The Stationmaster said: However there might be an older derivation as there was a very early GWR everyday term used by some people to describe their local freight trip as 'the fly'. From canal usage possibly? A fly-boat, by c.1800 terms anyway IIRC, being one that worked without stopping (overnight), and some ran to timetables. The coaches continue to impress, very well done to all at Hattons Edited May 3, 2021 by Schooner And to all who contributed their knowledge so generously, of course, without whom the end result would be poorer 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 3, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3, 2021 12 minutes ago, Schooner said: The coaches continue to impress, very well done to all at Hattons Agreed. I have one minor grumble, the tension locks look a bit droopy & loose (not unsual, unfortunately!). Noticeable while Sam was running them was they bobbed up and down as the tension varied. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philou Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 Well .... I'm sold. They do look very good. I will say this: Had I not known that they were generic, I would have accepted them as pukka and would have been none the wiser. Well done Hatton's for taking on board the very many comments expressed here on RMWeb and coming up with what could possibly be the defintive generic coach. Now, where do I sign up ..................... Cheers, Philip 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ighten Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 TBF the first thing to remove from such wonderful looking things are the tension locks - Order placed even though its going to be seriously rule 1 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted May 4, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, Free At Last said: Sam's Trains has a look at some of the decorated coaches... Damn cunning move by these Hattons chappies to get it on Sams Trains . Huge exposure . And it worked! I’ve known about these coaches since introduction but only paid rudimentary interest . Sams videos of the painted pre production models now has me seriously interested . I had half a liking for the GWR ones ,really don’t need them , but they look really good in this video, so seriously considering it . The real surprise to me was the LMS versions which look superb . I’m wondering if a rake of these will look good behind the forthcoming Rails Precedent that I have on order in LMS Crimson . I think I’ll hold off for moment though until see haulage capacity of the loco and free running capabilities of these coaches . The only downside I could see on video was that some coaches weren’t particularly free running , although as Sam pointed out these were pre production models and it might be different on the production run . Edited May 4, 2021 by Legend correct grammar 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Harrison Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 14 hours ago, Free At Last said: Sam's Trains has a look at some of the decorated coaches... Mouthwatering. I can't wait for mine to arrive. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 4, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 4, 2021 Sam's form of presentation grates because I find it verbose and lugubrious. "Cut to the chase!" I tell the screen. But his closeups are very revealing and in this case it all looks astonishingly good. Value for money appears to be generous. 1 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted May 4, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 4, 2021 I was interested that they had a 'Smoking' sign in one window of a GWR coach. I will not be picky and ask if they have changed the colour of the seats. That sort of detail is amazing, and would make what I am building look a little poor. However, I am waiting for the LNWR coaches as I need through coaches and I am sure they will certainly look the part. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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