'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Nick C]

45 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

You only realise what you had when you lost it.

 

 

Its all very well saying alternative parcel couriers are available - but NONE of them have a thing called a Universal Service Obligation, deliver letters, have pan UK pricing (private couriers charge more for 'awkward' (i.e. remote areas like the Scottish highlands), etc

 

Its pretty clear that the Royal Mail group are trying to position themselves so that they can flog off the profitable parcel side of the business and leave the letter / USO side to wither and die , presumably in the hope the Government will be forced to take it on / subsidise it.

 

The current issue with postal workers is directly attributable to the determination to make the letters division fund itself by a wholesale attack on staffs Terms, Conditions and Pay - rather than do the ethical thing and use the profitable parcel side to fund the 'social' side of the business as doing so hampers the prospects of flogging off the parcel division.

 

Regrettably a typical British disease - enthusiastically embraced by a certain political party where profitable state enterprises are flogged off to their mates in the city and the taxpayers / employees are left to pick up the pieces that get left behind through high subsidies and attacks on workers pay, T&Cs, etc.

 

So while I can fully appreciate why businesses moving away from Royal Mail - I personally am quite happy to stick with RM wherever possible put up with the delays for most things - not for my benefit but because RM deserves to survive!

Well put - at the risk of getting too close to politics, the letter/USO side should never have been privatised in the first place.

 

IMHO, there's a very simple solution. Nationalise the letter/USO delivery, and cross-subsidise it through a levy imposed on the courier companies.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Interesting, so I wonder if this would be plausible ?  (Precedent with Hornby Caledonian carriages).

 

Yes, c. 1958! (But only two carriages.)

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Nick C said:

IMHO, there's a very simple solution. Nationalise the letter/USO delivery, and cross-subsidise it through a levy imposed on the courier companies.

 

Or impose the USO on the courier companies...

 

Much as should have been done for the common carrier obligation when road motor haulage took off, to bring the subject back round to railways!

[BlueLightning]

4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It is my understanding that the weekly Sunny South Specials were LNWR stock

 

Correct, the LBSC built some dual-fitted carriages for the SSE in 1904. Which was the first year of the SSE, however the LNWR rejected their use due to their lack of corridors and gangway connections. The service was run exclusively with LNWR coaching stock, and ran through the summer until 1915.

 

Usually there was a loco change, however as noted elsewhere on trials the train did run with just LNWR or LBSC locos the whole way, the LBSC using I3's for this, and the LNWR using Precursor tender engines, there is a picture of LNWR number 7 Titan sat at the platforms at Brighton ready for the return leg of the service.

 

The LNWR George the Fifth class were built based on the results of these trials, incorporating features from the I3 that gave it an advantage over the Precursor.

 

Gary

[PhilJ W]

7 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Apologies if it's already been covered, but I've come late to the party when Hattons announced the B/G, red and black ones.

Were or would these coaches have been fitted with Mansell or some form of wooden wheel originally?

 

Mike.

Many coaches were fitted with Mansell wheels but when coaches got larger it was found that the Mansell wheels were not strong enough so the solution was to add a third axle, wrought iron also had problems. By the time that reliable steel wheels were available bogie coaches were coming into service. Many six wheelers with Mansell wheels were converted to four wheels not only by removing the centre axle but fitting steel wheels to the remaining axles.

[ChicagoNick]

Anyone put a decoder in that dims the lights and ideally makes a realistic oil lamp flicker for the GWR ones. I have the basic Hattons next 18 one which installs like a charm but may not have the capability to dim.. or maybe I dont have that capability to make it.

[Bucoops]

@ChicagoNick I've put one of these in - https://tramfabriek.nl/function-decoders.html

 

I've not played with it yet but it has quite a few tweaks you can make including flickering.

 

Page 24: https://tramfabriek.nl/weblinks/tom/fd.pdf

Edited December 8, 2022 by Bucoops

[ChicagoNick]

Great.. Train O Matic .. maybe Jenny K can do us a Youtube tutorial on light tweaks for our coaches..

[Jol Wilkinson]

8 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

Interesting, so I wonder if this would be plausible ?  (Precedent with Hornby Caledonian carriages).

 

Only, I believe, if the LNWR Precedent had gone north of Carlisle.

 

I haven't been able to find a reference to Caledonian carriage dimensions but I believe that they may have been built to a slightly larger loading gauge than the LNWR. I recall reading that, following a mishap where some door handles were ripped a CR coach when running south of the Border in LNWR lines, that CR coaches were "banned" from such travels.

 

I don't recall any references but does anyone have examples of CR carriages running on other companies' lines in England?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I don't recall any references but does anyone have examples of CR carriages running on other companies' lines in England?

 Interesting. I've seen a c. 1900 photo showing a North British saloon in a train on the S&DJR. 

[Nick Holliday]

8 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Only, I believe, if the LNWR Precedent had gone north of Carlisle.

 

I haven't been able to find a reference to Caledonian carriage dimensions but I believe that they may have been built to a slightly larger loading gauge than the LNWR. I recall reading that, following a mishap where some door handles were ripped a CR coach when running south of the Border in LNWR lines, that CR coaches were "banned" from such travels.

 

I don't recall any references but does anyone have examples of CR carriages running on other companies' lines in England?

The Caley Coaches website reveals that some of the Caledonian's grand twelve wheeled coaches definitely ran on other lines. One design was built specifically for a Glasgow to Taunton service, and many of the rest of this type were dual fitted, with the express purpose of running on other lines, and often substituted for WCJS when required. It was obviously highly inconvenient that their close ally, the LNWR, failed to adopt the superior Westinghouse brake, stubbornly hanging on to Webb's chain brake before eventually adopting the vacuum, and it seems the Scottish company generously did what they could to accommodate these foibles.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

it seems the Scottish company generously did what they could to accommodate these foibles.

 

Reading Casserley and Millard' s Register of West Coast Joint Stock, it appears that the Caledonian management was, in the 19th century, continually frustrated by the conservative attitude to carriage building at Wolverton, not only on the question of brakes. But as is well-known, it was George Westinghouse himself who was responsible for turning the LNWR against his air brake, by attempting to bribe Webb. 

 

As to clearances, whilst the very largest 20th century Caledonian carriages may have been restricted, that would hardly apply with the smaller dimensions of 19th century carriages. 

[phil gollin]

On 02/12/2022 at 09:15, phil gollin said:

.

 

I lost out on two coaches from my first deliveries (despite having a very early pre-order in) and this time around I lost out on one SECR coach ( again an early  pre-order) !

 

It is rather disappointing that Hattons cannot seem to get the correct numbers of coaches delivered.

 

.

.

 

Well,  out of the blue Hattons have e-mailed me that the "missing"  SECR coach has appeared  (actual story more complicated - it appeared, then disappeared, and then Hattons got me a lit version (!!!)) - still at least one of my "missing" coaches has appeared.

 

 

Helps for Christmas.  🎅

 

.

[SHMD]

 

Now that these coaches are appearing on home layouts, you can see how much of a “gamer changer” they really are.

They can change the whole character of a layout just by being there.

 

They are (in fact) not accurate to any one prototype BUT they are “very prototypical” for many of the pre-grouping companies.

I realise now that accuracy is not the most important thing - being prototypical is.

(I don't include design errors in this.)

 

Lovely, just lovely.

I look forward to the next “leap” in the hobby.

 

 

Kev.

 

 

[SR Chris]

I think my late 1950s era stationmaster may have to go and have a lie down when he finds this ensemble standing in his platform ...

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by SR Chris
Image reloaded

[Enterprisingwestern]

53 minutes ago, SHMD said:

 

Now that these coaches are appearing on home layouts, you can see how much of a “gamer changer” they really are.

They can change the whole character of a layout just by being there.

 

They are (in fact) not accurate to any one prototype BUT they are “very prototypical” for many of the pre-grouping companies.

I realise now that accuracy is not the most important thing - being prototypical is.

(I don't include design errors in this.)

 

Lovely, just lovely.

I look forward to the next “leap” in the hobby.

 

 

Kev.

 

 

 

I think, as they weren't ever marketed as perfect prototypical coaches, we all lowered our expectations a little, no complaints of too many windows and in the wrong place could be levelled, but they hit the bullseye of what they were aiming at it would seem, they even got me to order the totally "wrong" 3 BR era coaches!

 

Mike.

[turbos]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Reading Casserley and Millard' s Register of West Coast Joint Stock, it appears that the Caledonian management was, in the 19th century, continually frustrated by the conservative attitude to carriage building at Wolverton, not only on the question of brakes. But as is well-known, it was George Westinghouse himself who was responsible for turning the LNWR against his air brake, by attempting to bribe Webb. 

 

As to clearances, whilst the very largest 20th century Caledonian carriages may have been restricted, that would hardly apply with the smaller dimensions of 19th century carriages. 

I agree, after reading A Register of West Coast Joint Stock I realised that development of Wolverton carriage design was driven by the Caley pushing for improved WCJS coaches and consequently LNWR carriages were based on WCJS designs rather than the often perceived opposite.

 

The only route that the Caley Grampian Stock was banned from was their Callander & Oban line plus a few sidings..

 

Last Saturday (03/12/22) I attended an interesting presentation by the Caledonian Railway Association on ‘Special Traffic on the Caledonian Railway’. A large part of the presentation covered the special carriage workings, usually through Carlisle, both rakes of Caley coaches being hired to English Companies and English Companies rakes coming north over the border. English Companies included the GCR, LNWR, MR, NER, GNR, L&Y and even a GWR rake. Each train needed special arrangements to make sure a locomotive with the correct brake equipment was available. Often their were multiple rakes coming north on the same day all needing careful planning although what actually ended up happening on the day is lost in the mists of time!

 

Brian.

[melmerby]

15 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I haven't been able to find a reference to Caledonian carriage dimensions but I believe that they may have been built to a slightly larger loading gauge than the LNWR.

According to "Historical Loading Gauges" The Caley was one of the smaller companies, with a max width common with many others at 9' 0" (Same as LNWR) but a Maximum height of only 12' 11" compared with the LNWR 13' 6".

More importantly, eaves height and max height at 9' 0" width were also less than LNWR.

So any suggestion that they would foul the LNWR structures seems unfounded.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, turbos said:

Last Saturday (03/12/22) I attended an interesting presentation by the Caledonian Railway Association on ‘Special Traffic on the Caledonian Railway’. A large part of the presentation covered the special carriage workings, usually through Carlisle, both rakes of Caley coaches being hired to English Companies and English Companies rakes coming north over the border. English Companies included the GCR, LNWR, MR, NER, GNR, L&Y and even a GWR rake. Each train needed special arrangements to make sure a locomotive with the correct brake equipment was available. Often their were multiple rakes coming north on the same day all needing careful planning although what actually ended up happening on the day is lost in the mists of time!

 

This was presumably for excursion traffic during wakes weeks (and whatever the equivalent term was in Scotland), which as I understand it, were staggered, evening out the load on coastal resorts?

 

Which means, of course, that if you're modelling anywhere in the industrial north of England or Scotland, you can justify a rake of old 6-wheelers from any of the companies serving those parts of the country. Perhaps not the Brighton or Chatham, though.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Compound2632

[turbos]

28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This was presumably for excursion traffic during wakes weeks (and whatever the equivalent term was in Scotland), which as I understand it, were staggered, evening out the load on coastal resorts?

English Wakes Weeks and Scottish Fairs Weeks, weren’t covered much in the presentation as they’re a big enough subject in their own right.

All year round there was excursion traffic from weekend sports fixtures, musical societies, theatre companies, fish workers, scouts, etc. Other traffic included Bees to Wanlockhead and fruit from the English South coast to Glasgow, all fascinating stuff.

The presentation was recorded, I’ll see if I can put a link up to it for those that are interested.

 

Brian.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I think, as they weren't ever marketed as perfect prototypical coaches, we all lowered our expectations a little, no complaints of too many windows and in the wrong place could be levelled, but they hit the bullseye of what they were aiming at it would seem, they even got me to order the totally "wrong" 3 BR era coaches!

 

Mike.

I think it's more a case of these were the "ones that never got photographed", so nothing physical to compare them to.😉

More importantly nobody has managed to unearth any drawings for them............😲. Must've got binned in a big clear out.😞👍🏻

 

In truth many of them are close enough to have been a variation of a previous diagram.

I'm waiting to see whether Hattons might go for a clerestory roof as a later variation.

[PaulRhB]

Took mine to my Fathers and put two Hornby ones next to the Genesis ones. 
 

Hornby two on the left,

 

[Nick Holliday]

25 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Took mine to my Fathers and put two Hornby ones next to the Genesis ones. 
 

Hornby two on the left,

 

These photographs some of my reservations regarding the Genesis range. They clearly show that both ranges have, unfortunately, a very similar roof profile, like the low profile adopted by Stroudley and others for construction during the 1870’s and early 1880’s, whereas the bulk of 6 wheelers, at least, were built with a distinctly higher roof profile, usually matching that of later Edwardian bogies coaches. If Hattons had adopted a more modern outline, it would have broadened their appeal considerably.
Another detail they reveal is the difference in treatment of the LNWR livery. Hornby have chosen to apply the dark colour of the lower panels to all the mouldings, highlighting the fact that they look different from the Wolverton style of panelling, whereas Hattons have cleverly applied colour only where necessary to give the correct LNWR effect, which looks really good from a distance, but the lower picture clearly shows how the redundant mouldings appear as ghost lining.

Although the Hattons livery does look the part, I would suggest that the Hornby coaches could have another life as Caledonian or LBSCR stock, in its umber and cream form, with perhaps a light colour wash to subtly correct the shades. I appreciate that there are some compromises with the Caledonian usage, but fewer than have been happily made for other lines which have been enthusiastically received. Apropos another thread asking about Caledonian coaches on other lines, in Mike Williams’ book on CR Carriages he cites a series of Drummond’s 6wheel lavatory composites, built before 1890 with a low arc roof, that were dual braked for such duties, with one being involved in an accident at Carlisle whilst part of a Bristol to Glasgow regular service. The Hornby lavatory composite in LNWR livery would almost fit perfectly, but for the fact that the real thing was arranged as 331L13, rather than the 31L13 of the model.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I'm waiting to see whether Hattons might go for a clerestory roof as a later variation.

I do rather wonder if we might see some generic Clerestory coaches next and in bogie form.  I think that will be the limit though of where the generic coaches can go, after that you're getting into recognisable coach periods more suited to prototype modelling.

[PaulRhB]

32 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

whereas the bulk of 6 wheelers, at least, were built with a distinctly higher roof profile, usually matching that of later Edwardian bogies coaches.
 

Ok well there’s room for some enterprising person to do a replacement roof with the end profile filler? 3D print or resin, even the clerestory idea? 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

If Hattons had adopted a more modern outline, it would have broadened their appeal considerably.

They are virtually sold out, I’m not sure they need their appeal widening! 😉