'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Ravenser]

5 minutes ago, TT-Pete said:

 

My thoughts exactly (and I do love a good livery debate!) /sarc off 

 

Until someone actually develops a time machine and comes back again I think we have to stick with the time-honoured QI Nobody Knows

 

 

 

 

 

Scholarly caution is one thing, but as modellers we have to live in the real world on a practical basis.

 

"It is not possible to model the GER before WW1 because we don't know what colour the coaches were" is not a useful practical or sensible statement. Any uncertainties are wildly overstated by it.

 

There is a marked difference between the teak of the Metropolitan coaches in the photos I posted , and the sample panel which Edwardian posted as a sample of "Moulmein teak" . The coaches have an orange/chocolate cast. The panel has a paler less rich look , with what I might call a pinkish shade . 

 

I now understand the reasoning behind the paler and somewhat pinkish shade shown in the artwork for the Hattons GE coaches

 

Phoenix are paintmakers , and would naturally want to work from some kind of colour chip. Adrian Marks' reasoning derives the paint colour from the colour of "Moulmein teak" as it is known today - which seems entirely logical if not absolutely precise and watertight

 

Clearly GER "teak" paint is different from LNER teak and brown , and also from the Stratford Brown applied to pre-grouping GE section coaches after 1948

 

There are colours which are clearly and demonstrably wrong . Dark olive where it should be chocolate , teak printed like a pine grain shelf , and signal yellow where it ought to be BR warning panel yellow. But the worst that can be said about Hattons' choices are "we can't be quite certain that it's right, but it looks not unreasonable"

 

My own slight interest is as the owner of a Hornby 6 wheel LNER all 3rd , who has the intention to acquire a Hattons 6 wheel LNER Brake 3rd and Composite to make up a short train representative of a minor LNER branch in the 1930s (totally out of period for anything else I do , but there you go). I think the Hornby coach will need to be weathered down a bit for such an old coach, and I was contemplating using a wash of Precision Pullman umber for the job , as the paint has no other real use for me...

 

Precision LNER teak dull is a relatively pale shade :

 

(Coaches "understood" to be ex M&GN ...)

 (I find it is a very useful weathering shade for the coat of brown muck that covers say modern engineers ballast hoppers) 

[Chris116]

Can someone tell me how to block people?

[Paul.Uni]

5 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

Can someone tell me how to block people?

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/ignore/

Enter the user name and select what you want to block.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

Can someone tell me how to block people?

The problem with blocking people is that it doesn't.

 

If they post images in the image folders you still see them (by the dozen) and if they comment  on anything, you see their name and then a comment that you've blocked them.

 

So what you block is the actual words they post, and then you end up in a situation where you see one sided conversations and wonder what the heck is going on....

[Bucoops]

I'm a little wary of wading in on this, but several will already be familiar with this gem of a survivor. Whilst it is of GE origin, the scumbled paint was applied by the LNER and they would likely have tried to make it "fit" with other stock it would run with. As the coach body was enclosed from not long after withdrawal within a house as was popular in East Anglia at the time, there was limited weathering.

 

 

Pardon the finger...

 

 

 

 

Is it conclusive? Of course not. But it could well be the closest available example of early post-grouping teak (paint) colour.

[ChrisN]

Hatton,s coaches are now appearing on EBay, at of course at inflated prices.

[amdaley]

1 minute ago, ChrisN said:

Hatton,s coaches are now appearing on EBay, at of course at inflated prices.

I'm surprised it took so long 🤔

[Bishdurham]

I'd think that being used in Norfolk, the GER Teak would be a flatter colour!

 

😜

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Bishdurham said:

I'd think that being used in Norfolk, the GER Teak would be a flatter colour!

 

😜

 

 

"Norfolk is a county cut off on three sides by the sea, and on the fourth by the LNER"

Edited January 26, 2023 by Ravenser

[Dunsignalling]

TBH, having watched various contemporary movies over the years in which LNER trains (usually fleetingly) feature, most seem to exhibit ten or twenty different shades of "teak". 

 

I'd therefore suggest that the only way a model can definitely be wrong might be an excess of uniformity....

 

John

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

I'm a little wary of wading in on this, but several will already be familiar with this gem of a survivor. Whilst it is of GE origin, the scumbled paint was applied by the LNER and they would likely have tried to make it "fit" with other stock it would run with. As the coach body was enclosed from not long after withdrawal within a house as was popular in East Anglia at the time, there was limited weathering.

 

 

Pardon the finger...

 

 

 

 

Is it conclusive? Of course not. But it could well be the closest available example of early post-grouping teak (paint) colour.

 

LNER Stratford Brown is reckoned to be another thing entirely, and seems subject to some variation in appearance in service, so this coach, while magnificent, may prove a can of worms in its present state in relation to GER livery questions.

 

Good to see it, nonetheless.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

TBH, having watched various contemporary movies over the years in which LNER trains (usually fleetingly) feature, most seem to exhibit ten or twenty different shades of "teak". 

 

I'd therefore suggest that the only way a model can definitely be wrong might be an excess of uniformity....

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would anticipate a range, yes!

 

The chap who modelled Sleaford in OO (died years ago now, name escapes for which forgive me) always said he remembered Gresley coaches as darkened in service, sometimes almost to black, so he always darkened his models accordingly, even though people said it wasn't right!. 

 

 

[TJ52]

As these coaches are basically freelance and not strictly prototype models why is anyone that bothered about the shade of teak? It beggars belief. Get a life!

 

Terry

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, TJ52 said:

Get a life!

 

Aka give up railway modelling?

[Edwardian]

It's what I cherish most about RMWeb, the trouble people go to to share these profound insights.

 

 

[melmerby]

A link to some genuine teak coaches:

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

[PhilJ W]

28 minutes ago, melmerby said:

A link to some genuine teak coaches:

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

The author doesn't seem to kno of the difference between the GN and the GE.

[TJ52]

Let me be a little more specific. I'm all for research into all aspects of the railways and for trying to 'get things right'. However, we all know that compromises have to be made and some of us are happier to make more than others. In the case of railway liveries it has long been accepted that the effects of weathering and even the depot that did the painting (or in this case the varnishing) would have a bearing on the colour.

 

It is fair enough to have an opinion on a livery produced by a manufacturer and to share it and discuss it. But in the end, how many modellers are striving to get the shade exactly right but are quite content to run on 16.5mm track, use tension lock couplings, have no point rodding or working/incorrect signalling etc? I know rule 1 applies but if one man's teak is another man's abomination then so be it. Let's enjoy our trains despite the fact that very few of us get it all right.

 

I'll get my coat.

 

Terry

[Edwardian]

Well, some people are evidently bothered, or at least pretend to be; I made a comment about different companies having different shades of teak and proofs were sought and bona fides questioned!

 

What I don't follow is the suggestion that because the coaches do not seek to replicate any particular prototype, attempting to replicate an historic livery with as much fidelity as is possible is a wasted effort.  I should have thought that if you want a generic tooling to pass for a company-specific design, you need to pay particular attention to making the livery convincing.

 

I have seen a number of commentators here for whom the notion of a freelance coch does not compute. Fair enough, but why are they always commenting on the topic, the concept behind which they seem to have rejected?

[Compound2632]

It's a rule of RMWeb that on any thread that discusses the accuracy of appearance of any model there will be posters who:

a). opine that any talk of accuracy is completely pointless because the rails are too close together and the couplings are chunky; or

b). object in principle to the idea that accuracy is at all important in a model.

Such people generally take offence at the idea that anyone might think otherwise. They also usually say that they just want to play trains. That's absolutely fine and there are products out there that are just right for them. They're products that have given me a great deal of satisfaction too:

 

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

It's a rule of RMWeb that on any thread that discusses the accuracy of appearance of any model there will be posters who:

a). opine that any talk of accuracy is completely pointless because the rails are too close together and the couplings are chunky; or

b). object in principle to the idea that accuracy is at all important in a model.

Such people generally take offence at the idea that anyone might think otherwise. They also usually say that they just want to play trains. That's absolutely fine and there are products out there that are just right for them. They're products that have given me a great deal of satisfaction too:

 

You forgot c). Complain about the cost.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Nick C said:

You forgot c). Complain about the cost.

 

Have you seen the price of Brio?

[PaulRhB]

There’s an interesting point about proven colours made in a video by the Tank Museum when they discovered that RAL numbers changed in the 1940’s when the three digit codes, which could be duplicated between different organisations, were turned into unique four digit codes and they found their ‘correct colours’ were wrong. 
Were they upset? No they noted it and when exhibits came up for a new exhibition they took the opportunity to correct things. 
This video talks about the research, colour perception in the real world albeit in camouflage terms and the context for different stages of the vehicles life. Note some of these were painted wrong for a long time in one of the museums model manufacturers would use as a definitive reference! 😉

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, PaulRhB said:

Note some of these were painted wrong for a long time in one of the museums model manufacturers would use as a definitive reference! 

 

New evidence emerges, correcting previous practice. That's the scientific process. It's those who object to the idea of evidence-based decision making - chiefly because the outcome conflicts with their prejudices - that I personally find wearisome.

 

But as Samuel Jonhson* (or if not him somebody equally wise) said, "Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument." 

 

*The lexicographer, not the locomotive engineer.

 

[Oldddudders]

Surely if the model itself is generic, with windows, doors, roof details and undergubbins (technical term) not exactly as per any single original, then livery is more important than ever? If the colours look 'right' for the prototype company named on the box, then these models will more readily blend in with the kosher vehicles already on the layout. 

 

Teak, the subject of recent animated discussion, seems to me to be a finish which is extraordinarily difficult to get right, as previous years' discussions about RTR LNER vehicles have identified, even before the choice of shade. Companies that used solid colours make an easier target. Thus, as a modeller of trains South of the River, I am grateful that both Hattons and Hornby have each managed a plausible shade of olive for their generic SR stock, such that a string behind a modest tank loco will look fine on some forgotten branchline in Sussex or Devon, while, as I mentioned earlier, the Hattons 6-wheel full brake fits admirably at the head of my mid-morning Okehampton to Padstow service. 

[TJ52]

I take the point that the correct livery can do much to make these coaches look genuine. To be fair, if I was modelling in 4mm scale I might have been tempted, but then again as modeller of the Southern there are kit options.

 

Terry