UFOs - Is anybody out there?

[AndrueC]

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

If you consider the number of stars in the universe, the proportion of those known or believed to have planets, what we know about the conditions required for life to exist, and the sheer distances involved, you end up coming to the following conclusion:

 

1. There are alomst certainly multiple, probably thousands, of other planets out there with life.

2. They are all far too far away for us to ever communicate with, or even know for sure of their existance.

Vernor Vinge has written several excellent books and two of them are very good at conveying the size of the galaxy (let alone the size of the universe assuming it is finite). In one of them he talks about thousands of civilisations that are born, spread across dozens of star systems and then die out all without ever having made contact with another such.

 

I also love his idea of Zones of Thought. A Fire Upon the Deep ends with one of the most poignant chapters I've read. An unknown entity is trying to send a ping around the galaxy and they can only make contact in one direction. They are scared that they might be right on the edge of a major catastrophe (which we as the reader know they are). Thousands of civilisations have been destroyed or at least crippled.

 

If anyone likes S/F and hasn't read A Fire Upon the Deep and A Deepness in the Sky they should. Now

Edited July 5, 2021 by AndrueC

[brossard]

I watched Discovery's "UFOs Unclassified" the other night.  It was produced in response to the Pentagon report on UFOs recently released.

 

In it a retired USAF pilot reviewed the latest aircraft tech from B2 to F35 & F22 and reminded us that this technology is 20 years and more old.  How much further advanced have we become in those 20 years?  Perhaps these UFOs really are deep black super secret USAF projects (seems reckless to me to be buzzing Navy ships though).  I have to hope they are not Russian or Chinese.

 

John

[jonny777]

13 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

And some people will believe anything and have never heard of Occam's Razor.

 

 

 

Occam's Razor will not work for UFO sightings because no one knows what aliens might look like (or even if they exist). 

 

Most reports have been classified for decades, and many more still might be for all we know. 

 

You would end up trying to prove that everyone mistook the planet Venus, weather balloons, contrails, hoaxes, marks on poor camera lenses, etc., etc.; simply because you do not have access to detailed evidence - or all eye witnesses are immediately branded nut jobs by those who insist any event which cannot be replicated by modern science must be a lie. 

 

Occams Razor dismissed the existence of sprites when they were first reported by aircraft pilots, because the only logical answer was to  assume the wildest descriptions were false. Upward 'lightning' into the Stratosphere from thunderstorms in the Troposphere? Not possible. Except that they were true, and have been filmed hundreds of times since the initial debunking. 

[AndrueC]

1 minute ago, jonny777 said:

Occam's Razor will not work for UFO sightings because no one knows what aliens might look like (or even if they exist). 

 

I don't think you understand how Occam's Razor works. It is ideally suited to to the discussion of what UFOs  actually are. It doesn't matter what aliens looks like because Occam's Razor suggests that you shouldn't assume they even exist let alone wonder about what they look like.

 

1 minute ago, jonny777 said:

You would end up trying to prove that everyone mistook the planet Venus, weather balloons, contrails, hoaxes, marks on poor camera lenses, etc., etc.; simply because you do not have access to detailed evidence - or all eye witnesses are immediately branded nut jobs by those who insist any event which cannot be replicated by modern science must be a lie. 

 

No you wouldn't. That isn't how OR works. The entire point of OR is that you shouldn't try to prove things you don't know. OR suggests that in the absence of proof the most likely explanation involves those things you know to be true. We know that humans have indeed made the mistakes you mention. Ergo, there is no need to make up anything else.

 

1 minute ago, jonny777 said:

Occams Razor dismissed the existence of sprites when they were first reported by aircraft pilots

 

No it didn't. Again you demonstrate a lack of understanding about OR. OR never dismisses anything. OR does not attempt to provide an explanation or a definitive answer. OR is there to help you make a decision based on what is likely. OR is the last resort when you have no more evidence but have to make a decision. OR claims (if it claims anything) to improve the odds in your favour of making the correct decision but it offers absolutely no guarantees as to validity of your decision.

 

Yes OR says UFOs are unlikely to be aliens. But if some of them are then it doesn't invalidate OR. If you had to make a life or death decision based on whether a UFO was an alien or not you would (I hope) act on the assumption that it wasn't because it's the least likely explanation. That's what OR is for. What's that relatively famous saying? "If you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras'. That's OR in action

[jonny777]

Don't try the ad hominem approach, however subtle you try and make it. 

 

I know perfectly well how Occam's Razor works, but  you can demonstrate your expertise on this report for starters -  

 

 

Tuesday, January 27, 1953

Grand Rapids, Mich.- Grand Rapids Press

 

AIR FORCE REPORTS SMALL ‘DISC’ MAKES PASS AT THUNDER-JET.

 

United States Airbase, North Japan— AP—The United States Air Force Tuesday night reported a small, metallic, disc-shaped object made a controlled, sweeping pass at an American jet fighter-bomber and was observed at very close range by another pilot.

The report, from Air Force intelligence files, said the sighting was made over northern Japan at 11:20 a.m., March 29, 1952, by Lt. David C. Brigham of Rockford, Ill.

It was a bright, cloudless day, Brigham said he got a very good look at the object from about 30 to 50 feet for about 10 seconds.

 

 

The pilot described it as “about eight inches in diameter, very thin, round and as shiny as polished chromium: had no apparent projections and left no exhaust trails or vapor trails.”  He said it caught up with an F-84 Thunderjet, hovered a few moments and then shot out of sight. The F-84 pilot, whose name was not revealed, did not see it.

It was the second disclosure in a week by Air Force intelligence of mysterious flying objects over northern Japan near the Russian-Siberia area.

Brigham was flying a prop-driven reconnaissance craft at 6,000 feet when an F-84 drew alongside them, he said, he saw the disc to the right of and just behind the Thunderjet.  He said it appeared to be traveling 30 to 40 miles an hour faster than the F-84, which was going 150-160 miles an hour.

 

 

“It closed rapidly and just before it would have flown into his fuselage, it decelerated to his air-speed almost instantaneously,” Brigham said in his report to intelligence officers.  “In doing so it flipped up its edge at approximately a 90-degree bank. Then it fluttered within 20 feet of his fuselage for perhaps two or three seconds, pulled away and around his starboard (right) wing, appearing to flip once as it hit the slipstream behind his wing tip fuel tank.

“Then it passed him, crossed in front of him and pulled up abruptly, appearing to accelerate, and shot out of sight in a steep, almost vertical climb.

An unusual flight characteristic was a slow fluttering motion.  It rocked back and forth at approximately 40-degree banks at approximately one second intervals throughout its course.”

When it pulled away, “It did so more sharply than a plane could have done.  Its maneuvering throughout was always clear and precise.”

[rob D2]

50 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

And some people will believe anything and have never heard of Occam's Razor.

 

I love the idea of alien life. As a child and for the earlier part of my adult life I was a huge science-fiction reader. I particularly enjoyed CJ Cherryh's Alliance/Compact series and that of Ian M Banks. I would love to talk to an alien, exchange ideas (*) and see the universe from a totally different perspective. I'd love to travel to different stars.

 

But I'm also a realist. I don't want to play 'pretend aliens'. I want something that can be proven. The USAF footage is interesting for sure but it still doesn't meet my standards. Sorry.

 

(*)Assuming we can meaningfully communicate. I've also read most of Cherryh's Atevi novels and understand that you might need more than just a dictionary to communicate. Or the Tc'a, Chi and Knnn of her Compact series which pretty much nobody has ever worked out how to talk to.

US Navy in fact. I’m sorry that strike aircraft FLIR cameras don’t meet your requirements, but they are good enough for sticking a laser guided bomb in someone’s ear....!

 

As for the “ what travel so far and not communicate “ idea. Have you never just gone for a drive ??

 

seriously though, they showed a lot of interest in the ICBM nuclear silos and various defence installations - I think the come here to make sure the human race ( who they probably classify as hopeless xxxxwits ) don’t go and  destroy themselves - like a little pet project .

Edited July 5, 2021 by rob D2

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m sure Bono is an alien i’m convinced of it.

 

I was involved once in security at an event where Bono appeared.

 

He seemed normal enough to me but everyone else present seemed completely in awe of him. So you may be right.

[Gibbo675]

46 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Before the age of flight, dont forget Seamen used to talk of Mermaids and Sea Monsters… beyond the coast of Penzance there be dragons… even the Loch Ness Monster didnt fly or have wings in the 1930’s… Children saw fairies, pixies and elves, not Aliens from the planet Zog.

 

it was the perils of the deep unknown, that scared children in bed at night.

 

From the 13th century, until the 1950’s, a Rocket wasnt a space ship, it was an unguided missile.

 

Now if the naval archives were full of 15th century stories of flying saucers.. there could be more credibility to modern day myths… but the scary stories of victorian england was more 20,000 leagues under the sea, not 20,000 feet above it.

 

inconvenient truth unfortunately, but one that makes a lot of money.

 

 

Hi ADB,

 

You an buy books upon this sort of stuff:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UFOs-Art-Chris-Henry-ebook/dp/B00C460YBS

 

Monty Python even referenced it in Life of Brian:

 

 

 

Gibbo.

[adb968008]

39 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

You would end up trying to prove that everyone mistook the planet Venus, weather balloons, contrails, hoaxes, marks on poor camera lenses, etc., etc.; simply because you do not have access to detailed evidence - or all eye witnesses are immediately branded nut jobs by those who insist any event which cannot be replicated by modern science must be a lie. 

Are ghosts, poltergeists and other apparations really aliens ?

 

Why ?

Well the trouble will science is it relies on evidence.

The lack of evidence, means UFOs are not proven.

But why here, why now ?

 

if there was stories in any country, in the last 2000+ years of written history, of visitors from another planet, dont you think it would be noteworthy in history ?

Given everything from  greek myths, eygptian stories, roman conquests, Chinese conquests, Aztec life are in some form documented.. including major events like Pompeii, Biblical stories,  etc… wouldn't an Alien visitation be worthy of writing down and handing to your grand children ?

 

However Ghost stories have propagated the centuries, since Roman times, things going bump in the night.. science has yet to explain them.. are these Alien visitations ?.. on balance ghost stories stand the test of time more than Aliens..

 

There is one ancient documented UFO encounter of course, but science has explained it away… Halleys Comet appearing in 1066 and the Bayeux Tapestry.

 

its about fear of what known unknowns…

Chinese feared war when burning kites, in the shape of dragons flew above them

Romans didnt sail the world, the world ended in the med, but were scared of night attacks by invisible men from the dark.

Middle Age Europeans did sail the world, but what lay beneath the waves was certain death.

Westerners fly the world, but whats above the plane is uncertainty.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

 

As for the “ what travel so far and not communicate “ idea. Have you never just gone for a drive ??

 

seriously though, they showed a lot of interest in the ICBM nuclear silos and various defence installations - I think the come here to make sure the human race ( who they probably classify as hopeless xxxxwits ) don’t go and  destroy themselves - like a little pet project .

So all aliens visiting are youth joy riders out for a laugh?

 

And only aliens would have a real interest in the content and construction of America's IBCM facilities, not the Russians?

 

Surely, if they wanted us to be peaceful, they would have gone all 'Klaatu barada nikto' on us and demonstrated peace and love is the only way forward as if you ask me we are accelerating towards self destruction not away from it.  If they are here, we're an experiment not a project.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

I'm sorry, I can't quite agree. Humans are full of high ideals, until you start dishing out money, and then people start losing morals quicker than silver sand.

So we'll be OK as long as the little green men aren't interested in money?  The people interested in space travel just now are Richard Branson, Jeff Bozos and Elon Musk - none of them exactly borassic.  Just how much is a Martian Dollar worth in bitcoins?

[woodenhead]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

So we'll be OK as long as the little green men aren't interested in money?  The people interested in space travel just now are Richard Branson, Jeff Bozos and Elon Musk - none of them exactly borassic.  Just how much is a Martian Dollar worth in bitcoins?

It's interesting as interstellar space travel is about flight, flight from the Earth never to return.

 

Films like Alien with blue collar truckers travelling through space with cargo for the Earth, it ain't going to happen, the distances are just too large.  But one thing it did have right, morals, rich people will own space travel and if you're lucky enough to go into space you're either also rich or you're fodder and there will be no laws in space.

 

 

[Gibbo675]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Are ghosts, poltergeists and other apparations really aliens ?

 

Why ?

Well the trouble will science is it relies on evidence.

The lack of evidence, means UFOs are not proven.

But why here, why now ?

 

Hi ADB,

 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.

 

Aurther C. Clarke.

 

Gibbo.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Not bad, in my case it was live feed video I was watching.

The closest I recall commercially was the coverage of Felix Baumgartner’s jump from 127k ft, and that ground based cameras actually pinpointed his jump with clarity of his outline, and captured it throughout the descent in 2012.

 

Tech for video imagery today is mm precision, realtime video  from Satelite.. so any alien would need an invisibility cloak to be undetected, to multiple cooperating nations in collusion… but that doesn't seem to matter to believers.

 Only have to see the video camera footage that follows the NASA launches, the lens on those babies is massive and custom built and follows the vehicles beyond the atmosphere, in fact I think one was actually sold at auction recently as NASA decided no more use.

 

Found one 

Edited July 5, 2021 by boxbrownie

[brossard]

20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Are ghosts, poltergeists and other apparations really aliens ?

 

Why ?

Well the trouble will science is it relies on evidence.

The lack of evidence, means UFOs are not proven.

But why here, why now ?

 

if there was stories in any country, in the last 2000+ years of written history, of visitors from another planet, dont you think it would be noteworthy in history ?

Given everything from  greek myths, eygptian stories, roman conquests, Chinese conquests, Aztec life are in some form documented.. including major events like Pompeii, Biblical stories,  etc… wouldn't an Alien visitation be worthy of writing down and handing to your grand children ?

 

However Ghost stories have propagated the centuries, since Roman times, things going bump in the night.. science has yet to explain them.. are these Alien visitations ?.. on balance ghost stories stand the test of time more than Aliens..

 

There is one ancient documented UFO encounter of course, but science has explained it away… Halleys Comet appearing in 1066.

 

its about fear of what known unknowns…

Chinese feared war when burning kites, in the shape of dragons flew above them

Romans didnt sail the world, the world ended in the med, but were scared of night attacks.

Europeans did sail the world, but what lay beneath the waves was certain death.

Westerners fly the world, but whats above the plane is uncertainty.

 

 

 

I think you are right.  Despite the evidence for UFOs, we still haven't got any real good evidence for extraterrestrials.

 

However, at some point, as Sherlock Holmes might say "when you have exhausted all the likely explanations, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

 

As for aliens in ancient times, we do have stories of these in the form of the gods.

 

Ancient cultures described UFOs in various ways.  Chinese saw them as dragons, South Americans saw them as serpents, Persians - flying carpets, Indians - vimanas or flying palaces and so on.  Ezekiel had his chariot of fire in which he was taken to heaven.  In some rennaisance paintings there are what might be UFOs in the sky (very subjective though).

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/ufos-discovered-historical-paintings-114905870.html

 

Someone once said somewhere, that if you replaced the word "heaven" in the bible with "space", it makes a lot more sense.

 

John

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by brossard

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

I think you are right.  Despite the evidence for UFOs, we still haven't got any real good evidence for extraterrestrials.

 

However, at some point, as Sherlock Holmes might say "when you have exhausted all the likely explanations, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

 

As for aliens in ancient times, we do have stories of these in the form of the gods.

 

Ancient cultures described UFOs in various ways.  Chinese saw them as dragons, South Americans saw them as serpents, Persians - flying carpets, Indians - vimanas or flying palaces and so on.  Ezekiel had his chariot of fire in which he was taken to heaven.  In some rennaisance paintings there are what might be UFOs in the sky (very subjective though).

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/ufos-discovered-historical-paintings-114905870.html

 

Someone once said somewhere, that if you replaced the word "heaven" in the bible with "space", it makes a lot more sense.

 

John

 

And this is something that does intrigue me, some of the mosaics, structures of the past that would seem unbuildable with the technology of the time - in South America there are some amazing structures with stone cut to such precision that it seems a laser did it or of such weight no human could lift it using just wood.

 

History is written only by victors and as such is one sided, it also only exists in the period where we have the written word making deciphering older things even harder.

 

Were these super beings humans with advanced (for the time technology) that died out, or did they come from further afield, did we develop just from apes or did we get assistance.

 

Did some race actually escape their planet and visit us.  I know I seem to be contradicting myself from earlier statements, but I do think most if not all flying saucer stuff in the past 70 years is cold war paranoia, but past civilisations were much simpler folk than us and unless it was magic being practiced (possible) then maybe here is something we should be asking more about

[brossard]

46 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

And this is something that does intrigue me, some of the mosaics, structures of the past that would seem unbuildable with the technology of the time - in South America there are some amazing structures with stone cut to such precision that it seems a laser did it or of such weight no human could lift it using just wood.

 

History is written only by victors and as such is one sided, it also only exists in the period where we have the written word making deciphering older things even harder.

 

Were these super beings humans with advanced (for the time technology) that died out, or did they come from further afield, did we develop just from apes or did we get assistance.

 

Did some race actually escape their planet and visit us.  I know I seem to be contradicting myself from earlier statements, but I do think most if not all flying saucer stuff in the past 70 years is cold war paranoia, but past civilisations were much simpler folk than us and unless it was magic being practiced (possible) then maybe here is something we should be asking more about

 

I agree with you.  There are ancient structures that defy explanation.  The temple complex at Baalbek Leb. (some stones weigh more than 1000 tons - we have trouble with those today) some of the buildings in S. America incl Puma Punku.  The Pyramids have been puzzled over for centuries.

 

Not just buildings.  The map produced by Piri Reis (and there are others) in the early part of the 16th century (just a few years after Columbus landed) shows remarkable accuracy.  It also shows Antarctica correctly (and it wasn't discovered until about 1830).  What is really astounding is that it shows the continent ice free!  The depiction has been corroborated by USN surveys.  Antarctica was last ice free some 7000 years ago.

 

Graham Hancock's book "Fingerprints of the Gods" is a fascinating journey around the world documenting high technology in ancient times.  His follow on book "Magicians of the Gods" gives a plausible explanation for the causes of the great flood in 11,000 BCE.

 

John

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by brossard

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, brossard said:

 

I think you are right.  Despite the evidence for UFOs, we still haven't got any real good evidence for extraterrestrials.

 

However, at some point, as Sherlock Holmes might say "when you have exhausted all the likely explanations, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

 

As for aliens in ancient times, we do have stories of these in the form of the gods.

 

Ancient cultures described UFOs in various ways.  Chinese saw them as dragons, South Americans saw them as serpents, Persians - flying carpets, Indians - vimanas or flying palaces and so on.  Ezekiel had his chariot of fire in which he was taken to heaven.  In some rennaisance paintings there are what might be UFOs in the sky (very subjective though).

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/ufos-discovered-historical-paintings-114905870.html

 

Someone once said somewhere, that if you replaced the word "heaven" in the bible with "space", it makes a lot more sense.

 

John

 

Where is the consistency on that lot ?

 

if you ask someone today to draw a bird, you’ll get a curved creature with wings… anywhere on earth you’ll get the same.

Ask a kid to draw a car, boat, train or plane you’ll know what you’ll get.

 

The lack of consistency means its an artists vision based upon a description they themselves havent seen... particularly so in the religious pictures, how many religious pictures exist in the world.. but someone has managed to find a handful of exceptions all painted 1500 years after the event...

 

Again though dont forget the birth of christ was preceding by the guiding star… Halleys Comet.. again demonstrating its impression on civilisation.. that repeated Alien contact just isn't being provided in those historical records.. but the comet is.. if it was a spacecraft full of Alien tourists, its an odd omission from the records.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by adb968008

[brossard]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Where is the consistency on that lot ?

 

if you ask someone today to draw a bird, you’ll get a curved creature with wings… anywhere on earth you’ll get the same.

Ask a kid to draw a car, boat, train or plane you’ll know what you’ll get.

 

The lack of consistency means its an artists vision based upon a description they themselves havent seen... particularly so in the religious pictures, how many religious pictures exist in the world.. but some has managed to find a handful of exceptions all painted 1500 years after the event.

 

 

 

I did say it was subjective.  In other words, to quote Frankie Howerd "Please yourselves".

 

John

Edited July 5, 2021 by brossard

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

 

I agree with you.  There are ancient structures that defy explanation.  The temple complex at Baalbek Leb. (some stones weigh more than 1000 tons - we have trouble with those today) some of the buildings in S. America incl Puma Punku.  The Pyramids have been puzzled over for centuries.

 

 

John

 

 

People may think that.

 

Most of those structures took generations to build. But were built by man. I've measured the things. Not very impressive in real life.

 

 

In the UK we built hundreds of castles, churches. large houses and cathedrals with tools that were little better in a few years, with a population that was a fraction of that which the Egyptians, Aztecs, Babylonians, etc. had.

 

The Egyptians for example used about half a million slaves (or serfs) at any one time to build the Great Pyramids. Their houses are right next to it. We just used a few specialists that could work quickly.

 

Castles like Harlech were built with a workforce totalling a few hundred and are vastly more impressive than the pyramids.

 

Took seven years. "the workforce comprised 546 general labourers, 115 quarriers, 30 blacksmiths, 22 carpenters and 227 stonemasons,". All documented.

 

They were building the others at the same time.

 

Also don't forget it was mostly surrounded by sea when it was built.

 

 

 

Jason

[brossard]

Didn't say these things were not man made.  I just think it takes some explaining how people with primitive tools can excavate, lift and manipulate 1000 ton blocks of stone so that you can't get a piece of paper in the join.

 

I'm a firm believer that everything that has happened must conform to the laws of physics.  Magic and miracles are not recognized.

 

John

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, brossard said:

 

I agree with you.  There are ancient structures that defy explanation.  The temple complex at Baalbek Leb. (some stones weigh more than 1000 tons - we have trouble with those today) ...

Just looked that up - doesn't sound like they defy explanation. Whilst the methods used aren't know for certain there appear to be plausible methods for the technology available of the day, at least for the large but not largest ones. The largest ones are apparently still in the quarry, so it looks like they couldn't manage to move them.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Reorte

[Gibbo675]

24 minutes ago, brossard said:

Didn't say these things were not man made.  I just think it takes some explaining how people with primitive tools can excavate, lift and manipulate 1000 ton blocks of stone so that you can't get a piece of paper in the join.

 

I'm a firm believer that everything that has happened must conform to the laws of physics.  Magic and miracles are not recognized.

 

John

Hi John,

 

We are told by Wonkypedia that the stones of Balbeck were placed by the Romans and yet the same crazies that write Wonkypedia tell us this tell us that the largest cranes that the Romans had would lift a whopping THREE TONS. I do wish they would make their minds up or at least get their stories to corroborate.

 

A bit of Eric Blair might help those crazies and those that quote Wonkypedia without using any form of discernment to rationalise their suppositions:

 

‘How do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable – what then?’

 

Gibbo.

[Colin_McLeod]

 

3 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Wonkypedia

 

What is Wonkypedia? Never heard of it.

[brossard]

I just read several essays on Baalbek.  I do not see anything convincing about how these massive stones were moved and installed.  Wood rollers would be crushed under the weight of 1000 tons.

 

From my reading, while the temple was built by the Romans in the 1st century BCE, the base it self could date back 1000s of years.

 

John