Olivia's Class 76 LE (inc earlier Blue Pullman content)

[cawkyd]

Hi All just a quickie before i'm off for the weekend.

I just want to make sure that if anyone takes my posts the wrong way, that was not intended, i am just the messenger and am relaying information as a personal favour, i'm not used to this P.R Lark.

Neil is well aware that he has taken a very (extremely) large project on, but he realy hopes it works and has invested a lot of time & Money into it both Business & Personal, and I for one support him and wish him all the best.

 

I will definitely make sure that pictures, CAD Drawings and information are passed on as soon as we get it. I'm trying to get as much info to you as possible.

 

Off for a cuppa now

Bye,

Dan

[Ian J.]

While I too still have some reservations and won't currently put down a deposit, I'd like to add a voice of support and hope that OT can sort out the general arrangement of producing these models. If the various issues that others have raised can be resolved then hopefully the support of us as buyers will follow.

[Pixie]

I will definitely make sure that pictures, CAD Drawings and information are passed on as soon as we get it. I'm trying to get as much info to you as possible.

 

Don't forget the badgering Heljan part if anything doesn't quite look right I must admit I'm very impressed with Dapol on this front, when they've posted up the CAD images of the N gauge HST power cars and 4mm D6300, pleople have supplied their thoughts and the lads at Chirk seem to have done very well in correcting any issues. Perhaps even inviting the Heljan design team to the forum to dicuss the CAD images and any improvements would be an option to avoid anything getting lost in translation?

 

As an aside, would it be possible to clarify what exactly the deposit goes towards? The Model Rail article (which admittedly I've not seen) seems to suggest it's just the two power cars, whilst the website states it the power cars and a kitchen car. The other big question is whether ones pennies is paying towards a WR or MR set, any chance on an insight on this one? I realise that you're just relaying information at the moment, but perhaps you could ask those in the know about it.

 

Pix

[Accurascale Fran]

To be blunt, the 3-car sets on offer ATM are neither fish nor fowl; the OT website doesnt even say which pattern of power cars and kitchens are being done

 

I was just relaying the quotes I saw in Model Rail on the subject, as some posters queried which version OT planned to produce. If knowing which one is planned first is really that important to you, then maybe dropping an email to OT, their forum member on here or indeed Heljan is the best route for you to take.

[Pennine MC]

I was just relaying the quotes I saw in Model Rail on the subject, as some posters queried which version OT planned to produce.

 

I appreciate that, I was just using your quote for convenience in the wider context

 

If knowing which one is planned first is really that important to you, then maybe dropping an email to OT, their forum member on here or indeed Heljan is the best route for you to take.

 

It's not at all important to me personally, but I would suggest it's very important to a lot of prospective purchasers, and that it's unfortunate that it wasn't made clear from the start. Dan has since said that the WR one could be first, but he also said it was 'off the record'. Which it now arguably isn't

[frobisher]

Well they're not completely irrelevant are they?, they are the T&C's a purchaser, trade or consumer is agreeing to. They are significantly different and more penalising than other T&C's from LE supplying model shops, that makes me wonder why.

 

irrelevant FUD

Wiki definition.Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is a tactic of rhetoric and fallacy used in sales, marketing, public relations

 

Bit difficult to try and pin this one on me, a good try though. However, the points I've made are not FUD, unfortunately they're valid criticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

 

They are not however valid criticism of the project in hand. They are irrelevant to the project in hand because they do not cover the special case of Limited Editions which is what you were looking for. THAT absence is valid criticism, and we've had some clarification on that front (more would be better).

 

I would certainly say what you have presented has at the very least put the "Fear" of non-delivery charges, the "Uncertainty" of delivery of product and the "Doubt" that OT's are competent into some of the readers of this thread. Over things that apply if stuff goes pear shaped.

 

Picking over T&Cs and coming up with "Oh look, what if you're a Mongolian Yak herder..." type comments doesn't help anyone.

[Guest Phil]

I can reasonably happily sit in the stands and spectate this one. A WR Blue Pullman would be nice but I cannot justify it.

 

Pixie makes a very valid point about courting corrections to CAD images and general BP research from RMweb and cites a very good example with Dapol. I have half a dozen Heljan locos which I am mostly very happy with and feel Heljan are filling some very useful gaps in the British modelling market. If the standards of research were raised to produce better models with fewer niggling errors, then increased sales are bound to result.

 

The Blue Pullman is certainly not going to be a cheap model to market, produce and sell in sufficient quantities and I really wish OT well.

 

Andy Y's suggestion of starting with the BoBo electric and moving on to the other two projects at a later date is a good one. Those DC locos have many subtle features, not the least being coaching stock profile bodysides matching with flat sided cabs and millions of rivet an bolt heads. OT are fortunate in that the BoBo and CoCo electrics survive in preservation so laser scanning is an option, but sadly the BP is not in this category.

 

Wish you and your company well Dan and hope your "boss" will make himself known on here.

[Andy Y]

Hopefully the improving Ts & Cs means that we can move beyond that component of the issue for now gents.

 

Thanks,

[The Stationmaster]

I was just relaying the quotes I saw in Model Rail on the subject, as some posters queried which version OT planned to produce. If knowing which one is planned first is really that important to you, then maybe dropping an email to OT, their forum member on here or indeed Heljan is the best route for you to take.

 

If you are being asked to lay down 75 quid surely it's important to know what you are putting it down for? The Midland Pullman is among my list of the 'last things on earth' I would want for either model railway or mantelpiece. But if I was so inclined I would not be entirely unhappy with a Western one - I knew them and rode in them so it might just have a nostalgic role on the mantelpiece.

 

But it it would strike me as utterly daft to underwrite the costs of producing something I don't want - far better to spend my money underwriting something I do badly want, if that's the only way I'm likely to get it. And I'm still rather wary of exactly what the deposit business is all about and what protection would be given to my money if I were to lay-down a deposit. Would I be simply buying a place in the queue or would I be contributing capital to a company which is not even limited by guarantee - that's still not clear to me hence one reason for not jumping in for even an EM1 at this stage.

 

In theory this project could do well but it seems to have gone off at half-cock, and without a full charge, as far as the BP is concerned (I still wonder why?).

[coachmann]

The request for a deposit up front is nothing new in the 'real world' (anyone booked a holiday this year?), it just hasn't come to the 00 world yet.

Oh it has. Deposits are the norm in some sections of the hobby.

 

I think Olivia trains have entered a planet without realizing what its climate is like. As has been highlighted on RMweb many many times, Planet Plastic RTR citizens demands detail-perfect Diesel or electric models. Warnings are already writ high on the wall when they are expressing concerns about windscreen wipers(!!!!!)

 

I also think Olivia Trains have been led somewhat astray in thinking that they can supply two electric locos and one Blue Pullman train in order to fulfill a perceived gap in the RTR market. Most 'players' would play it safe and go for just one of those items, the safest being the Woodhead Bo-Bo. Indeed, this loco is the absolute kick off point for a line that few people have ever modelled in its electrified guise. It is only when the 76's have sold out and people are building miniature Woodheads all over the place that the wise should consider producing the Class 77 Co-Co.

 

As for a Blue Pullman, I don't think Hornby and Bachmann would consider that Unit in the current economic climate - if ever!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I really wish OT well.

 

However, I feel that if they are doing the Blue Pullman, then they need to do a complete train, rather than only the power cars, which is one of the mixed messages I'm getting on this project at the moment.

 

The BP consists of two identical half units. So for the Midland Pullman there would need to be three moulds - the DMBF, the MKF and the TPF.

 

The WR version would need the DMBS, the MPS, the TKF and the TPF.

 

The TPF are identical between the two trains; the MKF and the TKF have the same bodyshell but a different bogie arrangement, so the same mould could be used for the bodyshell.

 

The window arrangement differs between the two power cars, but it might be possible to use the same mould with a separate window section.

 

So basically one could get away with using four moulds to create both trains, depending on how they're made.

[craigwelsh]

Oh it has. Deposits are the norm in some sections of the hobby.

 

I think Olivia trains have entered a planet without realizing what its climate is like. As has been highlighted on RMweb many many times, Planet Plastic RTR citizens demands detail-perfect Diesel or electric models. Warnings are already writ high on the wall when they are expressing concerns about windscreen wipers(!!!!!)

 

 

The windscreen wipers comment was someone's sarcasm about accuracy concerns which I responded by mentioning its shape problems people worry about. I'd also object to your second point, i'm hardly adverse to a soldering iron but being realistic i'd much prefer a plastic pullman..

 

I don't think a deposit is an issue, its just a large deposit towards an ill defined concept at the moment which isn't inspiring the confidence to commit.

 

 

I'll reiterate my earlier suggestion, get the 76 off to customers first to get the confidence to supply this.

[Pennine MC]

 

I think Olivia trains have entered a planet without realizing what its climate is like. As has been highlighted on RMweb many many times, Planet Plastic RTR citizens demands detail-perfect Diesel or electric models. Warnings are already writ high on the wall when they are expressing concerns about windscreen wipers(!!!!!)

 

 

I dont think that's particularly helpful TBH, Larry. This is supposedly a premium product, probably a once in a lifetime opportunity for many buyers. I dont see anything unreasonable about wanting it to have the correct number and type of coaches, and to be to a generally higher level of accuracy than some of Heljan's recent output

[Guest dilbert]

Going slightly OT ('off topic', nothing else) Wrenn also did the 5BEL, look at the prices of these items (interesting to note how they were packaged as well) :

 

http://www.wrennspec...t-brown-tables/

 

http://www.wrennspec...ach-browncream/

 

http://www.wrennspec...man-browncream/

 

http://www.wrennspec...lman-coach-bt-/

 

and the bidding for a pair of Wrenn Pullman bogies :

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item2307962a14

 

...dilbert

[Accurascale Fran]

If you are being asked to lay down 75 quid surely it's important to know what you are putting it down for? The Midland Pullman is among my list of the 'last things on earth' I would want for either model railway or mantelpiece. But if I was so inclined I would not be entirely unhappy with a Western one - I knew them and rode in them so it might just have a nostalgic role on the mantelpiece.

 

But it it would strike me as utterly daft to underwrite the costs of producing something I don't want - far better to spend my money underwriting something I do badly want, if that's the only way I'm likely to get it. And I'm still rather wary of exactly what the deposit business is all about and what protection would be given to my money if I were to lay-down a deposit. Would I be simply buying a place in the queue or would I be contributing capital to a company which is not even limited by guarantee - that's still not clear to me hence one reason for not jumping in for even an EM1 at this stage.

 

In theory this project could do well but it seems to have gone off at half-cock, and without a full charge, as far as the BP is concerned (I still wonder why?).

 

I totally agree with you, which is why I suggested that if you want to know (and it goes for everyone else too) then send them an email. If everyone follows that rounte they'll see the need for feedback and provide us with an answer. I just dont see what the continuing of adding comment after comment regarding 'which version will be made and when' onto this thread will achieve? Surely contacting them directly, then reporting back here when you get an answer from them is the best route to take. (Should you really want to know yourself that is )

[Gulliver]

Remember that their own advert says "Please don't ring for EM1 & Blue Pullman - See our website for more detail"

 

Showing why it was essential to have all this sorted out before making the announcement.

[Dave777]

I just dont see what the continuing of adding comment after comment regarding 'which version will be made and when' onto this thread will achieve?

 

I could not agree more. Personally I'm cutting them some slack and giving them a bit of time to get the project going. Let's just wait a bit. Yes they may have wished they'd done things differently now, but you know what, I'm not immune from making mistakes in my place of work too.

 

I thought it was good of them to come on here and explain a few points. Some of the 'welcoming' comments don't show RMWeb in the best light - is that the way we welcome suppliers and manufacturers to our forum...?

[Pennine MC]

I thought it was good of them to come on here and explain a few points. Some of the 'welcoming' comments don't show RMWeb in the best light - is that the way we welcome suppliers and manufacturers to our forum...?

 

That rather presupposes they're intended to be welcoming, Dave. I'd suggest the intention of most is to be neither welcoming nor hostile - businesslike is the word I'd prefer. Olivia's are in the big league with this and IMO have to take the rough with the smooth - if you think this is unwelcoming, what do you think the likes of REx will make of the (eventual) model if it isnt right?

 

Bachmann are on record as saying that the 4CEP would be a 'now or never' moment for RTR EMUs, and thankfully it's paid off. The BP is another potential defining moment in the modelling of non-steam traction - again to repeat earlier posts, if this isnt handled properly, it could be the end of it and nobody else will touch it. Having said which, in the absence of any more info from the 'horse's mouth', I do agree the discussion is getting a bit circular

[The Stationmaster]

I totally agree with you, which is why I suggested that if you want to know (and it goes for everyone else too) then send them an email. If everyone follows that rounte they'll see the need for feedback and provide us with an answer. I just dont see what the continuing of adding comment after comment regarding 'which version will be made and when' onto this thread will achieve? Surely contacting them directly, then reporting back here when you get an answer from them is the best route to take. (Should you really want to know yourself that is )

 

 

Fair point in some respects, but surely if someone decides to commission a model of something it's sensible to start with a decision about what they are going to commission, or at least to decide what it is before they start advertising it? That is simply a matter of sensible business practice if nothing else. And surely it should hardly be for the potential customer to ask what the product is once advertising is underway and deposits are being sought?

 

To paraphrase what Pennine has said - it isn't businesslike.

[Andy Y]

One of our eagle-eyed members has just sent me a couple of unrelated, but possibly interesting, links.

 

http://www.oliviastrains.com/pages/1465/Heljan_14_NCB

http://www.oliviastrains.com/pages/1463/Heljan_14_029

 

 

Make of that what you will.

[Accurascale Fran]

Fair point in some respects, but surely if someone decides to commission a model of something it's sensible to start with a decision about what they are going to commission, or at least to decide what it is before they start advertising it? That is simply a matter of sensible business practice if nothing else. And surely it should hardly be for the potential customer to ask what the product is once advertising is underway and deposits are being sought?

 

To paraphrase what Pennine has said - it isn't businesslike.

 

And once again I agree totally. I have a masters in communications and PR but it doesnt take a Max Clifford to work out that this has been the wrong way to go about the launch of a new product. It's dreadful in fact. If OT were unsure on how to go about it then either asking someone a bit more savvy in this field (I would've told them what to do for free! Not that they know who I am,but even an appeal for help through somewhere like RMWEB may have helped.) or even log on to Hattons website and look at how they announced their 14 and 'borrow' their methods. Common sense would've gone a long way too.

 

My point is despite them telling us NOT to contact their shop etc., I think if everyone who does want to know more details emailed/contact them anyway then OT would have to get off their backsides and either inform us there and then or update their website. Moaning can get you very far.

 

I was thinking of a Midland Pullman myself, just as a one-off 'flagship' train to run on the layout from time to time but mainly to have in the cabinet. I've been left cold by the campaign by OT though, and certainly wont be putting down a deposit until they publish all details such as detailed specs for it, which one is coming first, an availability date (even if its a guesstimate!) and give me a resonably accurate guide price for the final amount. I think the latter is around £180, so thats a start, but my 75 quid is staying in the wallet until more concrete information appears.

 

As for Andy's links, well they're making me even more cynical!

[Bernard Lamb]

One of our eagle-eyed members has just sent me a couple of unrelated, but possibly interesting, links.

 

http://www.oliviastrains.com/pages/1465/Heljan_14_NCB

http://www.oliviastrains.com/pages/1463/Heljan_14_029

 

 

Make of that what you will.

 

http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/limitededitions.aspx#OO Scale (1:76th scale)

That's what I make of it.

But then I always see the worst in any situation.

Bernard

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Maybe I'm wrong, but is it unreasonable to wonder what version of the Blue Pullman is actually going to be produced by OT/Heljan when their website explicitly says don't ring for information and there's no email address to write to?

 

Their website now refers to a "Blue Pullman Power Cars and Kitchen Car Set" which to my mind infers that possibly the Midland Pullman is to be produced as these two vehicles were marshalled together in that unit. The accompanying photos, however, illustrate both the WR and MP units.

 

As someone else has said, perhaps we need to stop the speculation now.....

[Guest Phil]

Just to try and lighten the tone of this thread for a minute, some of the Blue Pullmans appear to have been used for prestige weekend charters, when not needed for the normal M-F Pullman service.

 

There is certainly one account and photos of a football match at Villa Park (Aston Villa) where a BP was used, this going empty to Walsall's Ryecroft shed for servicing while the match was played. There was obviously also a Coventry vs Liverpool match too :

 

http://western-champ.../p45549733.html

 

Here though is a far more "off the beaten track example" and something for the "apple green" boys and girls to get their teeth into. I'll let the caption do the talking ;

 

http://51a.fotopic.net/p62206909.html

[johnd]

Anybody got a copy of the Foxline book "East Lancashire Lines, Bury to Heywood & Rawtenstall" there is a picture in Bury Bolton Street of a BR Western region 8 car set (page 64) taken on January 28th 1967. The match was a FA cup match between Bury and Walsall, interesting sseing it the same picture as a Bury electric unit.

 

So a Western set on the Western division of the LMR wouldnt look to out of place.