Olivia's Class 76 LE (inc earlier Blue Pullman content)

[craigwelsh]

Ahh! But at least on THIS website, there's enough of us who have (collectively) bought probably all of the mags, and who are willing to pass on the gems!

Thanks to Andy's enterprises, WE know (or find out) what THEY haven't told us yet!

 

Going of topic - when was the last time you saw any of GEM's kits?

 

Richard

Indeed its great rmweb can pass on these details but i'd still not order off the website that doesn't have any of it listed! My amazement was that its not there. Are they funding the build through magazine articles now?

 

If anyone watches F1 it reminds me of the USF1 effort at the moment!

 

Someone seems to be building a GEM kit in the wb area though without pictures..

[Francis deWeck]

Indeed its great rmweb can pass on these details but i'd still not order off the website that doesn't have any of it listed! My amazement was that its not there. Are they funding the build through magazine articles now?

 

If anyone watches F1 it reminds me of the USF1 effort at the moment!

 

Someone seems to be building a GEM kit in the wb area though without pictures..

Hi,

 

I find your reference to the funding of the project rather crude and uncalled for, worthy of a retraction.

 

Before you get into a doubtful legal area, concerning the funding, I would suggest that you don't take the WWW as the answer to everything, but 'write' directly to OT giving your concerns rather than blasting them in a blunderbuss fashion over the web, so to my mind what was so unusual in an magazine article appearing, no doubt there will be more. As for what is posted on the Web, remember that the Web has legal responsibilities for what is posted, just in the same way as newspapers and any printed matter has. Also remember that it does take time to update web pages, and, also take into account that the company has reviewed the T & C's, in response to concerns which were raised. Remember also, that OT did respond (even if you didn't agree with the response) to what was posed.

 

Also, may I point out that the Dapol Class 22s and Class 41s are being produced in the same manner as the Blue Pullman model is, namely drawings etc, and they are taking some time to be produced. The only difference in the production here for OT is that they have asked for a deposit (refundable) and this has been proven not to be so unusual as to produce some of the comments that have been made.

 

I wonder what good all this frothing has done, as some of it seems rather inflammatory, rather than 'musing' on the products, as opposed to unsightly comments, off the cuff and far to clever by half, directed at the proposers/investors on the project. Has it been forgotten that the Blue Pullman has headed Wish List surveys, so what is wrong in somebody in responding to the results in a timely manner?

 

In the context of Heljan's production capacity, I would think they would know their business. I am aware that there have been some errors in products, but the 'Falcon' the latest of their products that I have bought is a fine model, which has been made from drawings, so it augurs well for future products. I am hoping the same for the Blue Pullmans.

 

I repeat, I am merely a customer of Olivia's Trains, and, that they give a straightforward good service. They are also people who are trying to earn a living, and there are employees who work there for the same reason.

 

And incidentally, I thought model railways were fun. I do agree that the models should be of a standard, but all this 'frothing' and know-it-all commentary, well what good is that to the model producers who are suppose to be on the same side as the modellers? I f there is some genuine knowledge to be passed on to Olivia's regarding the subjects, well give them a hand, after all, have Heljan not asked for help from the railway world in producing the 'Lion' D0260? Just a thought.

 

 

Regards,

 

Hugh Williams

[Trains4U]

I'm going to be careful as I'm a trade customer of Olivia's Trains, and I wasn't going to say anything, but I feel compelled to put some balance to the argument after the last comment by Hugh.

 

Olivias Trains are certainly very brave in announcing these models. however there are a number of reasons why people are left shaking their heads.

 

Olivias have no track record in commissioning models, not even a special edition - yet the announcements are highly ambitious.

 

The approach to the commissions is, unconventional.

Asking for deposits up front

Unusual and non-specific terms and conditions

No clear timescales or price structure

 

This subject has come up several times in converstaion with other people in the trade and customers, all of whom, without exception, think that this is over ambitious and could have been excecuted better.

 

I believe the choice of manufacturer is moot as the model will be as good as the research, and the eye of those signing off the CAD. However, with Heljan making a number of mistakes on models, it is less likely that people will lay down funds, sight unseen, on a Heljan tooling.

 

there are certainly some lessons to be learnt in terms of announcement-making and the disemmination of information. A unified and consistent approach would certainly have inspired more confidence. As it is, what is done is done and Olivias must now work hard to straighten up their affairs.

 

I hope this is a successful venture for them, and I wish them luck, but if they are to achieve their goals, I think they are going to need it.

 

 

Olivias announcements compound more general concerns that I have with regard to retailers commissioning exclusive toolings. The precedent has been set by Murphy Models, though I feel that they have a special case, producing models that, realistically, would never have seen the light of day had they not been commissioned.

 

Now there are four UK traders in this market. Two long established and capital rich organisations, one less so, but well experienced in comissioning wagons and locos and the new entrant, Olivias.

 

My key concerns are that there are now a multitude of models, and variations of each, in the pipeline from these retailers, many due at roughly the same time.

 

Can the market take it? multiple £125+ models, on top of the existing catalogue ranges?

 

Will enough sell in order to provide a reasonable return on investment?

 

Will these divert funds away from mainstream catalogue ranges, hurting the manufacturer more directly?

 

Are there now too many people fighting over a limited pot of cash, each offering a premium model?

 

Does this headlong rush to fill the gaps mean that quality is compromised due to questionable or hasty research?

 

Indicating an intent to produce does not mean that another manufacturer will not produce the same model. in fact, as the range of options (for D&E particularly) grows smaller this is increasingly likely to happen. Will a retailer invest a substantial sum on a deposit, only to find another manufacturer is two years down the line on research and tooling, will beat them to market and will undercut on price?

 

Will this glut of models cause the same situation that we saw with the Die-Cast bus market? - Over supply and over diversification leading to a crash in values that is damaging to all.

 

I predict that this could spell the end for one or more of the four retailers as I do not believe the market can stand this influx of new models in such a short timeframe, particularly in the current economic climate which shows no sign of improving any time soon.

 

One or two of these companies is big enough to weather such a financial storm, or absorb the cost of a slow seller.

I feel they may all suffer from lower than anticipated sales as people trade purchasing one model for another, but can they all survive it?

 

I for one wouldn't entertain the idea. Yes the rewards if successful are immense, but the risk, at this time, and from so many factors, is just too great.

[10800]

I find your reference to the funding of the project rather crude and uncalled for, worthy of a retraction.

 

Before you get into a doubtful legal area,

 

Bit of an overreaction - Craig's comment just seemed tongue-in-cheek to me following the previous debate on funding.

 

I wonder what good all this frothing has done, as some of it seems rather inflammatory, rather than 'musing' on the products, as opposed to unsightly comments, off the cuff and far to clever by half, directed at the proposers/investors on the project. Has it been forgotten that the Blue Pullman has headed Wish List surveys, so what is wrong in somebody in responding to the results in a timely manner?

 

Nothing wrong at all, and the vast majority on here, myself included, would be very happy for the project to succeed. But it's ambitious for a new entrant in the commissioning business, and there is just continuing uncertainty as to what the (Blue Pullman) project actually comprises. WR or MR, power cars first or complete trains, what liveries, etc etc?

 

In the context of Heljan's production capacity, I would think they would know their business. I am aware that there have been some errors in products,

 

Hence the understandable need for the clarity that many are asking for before committing themselves to anything.

 

I am merely a customer of Olivia's Trains,

 

So you have said in two of your three posts on here. Loyalty and appreciation of good service is a good thing of course, I'm not sure how it helps us to understand the project though.

[ozzyo]

I cannot scan the advert as that would breach the magazine copyright, but the ad starts off wwith Olivias Trains as the heading, then the top half lists sound decoders available by class. The second half of the advert then has a picture of a Blue Pullman power car (I am not able to tell which type) and then adjacent to this is a Class 76 Picture in BR Blue. The text beside this then reads "Presenting from Olivia's The Blue Pullman! EM1 Class 76 DC Overhead Locomotive! In Co-operation with Heljan.

 

The next line gives the addresss and phone number, then the next line of text says "(Please don't ring for EM1 & Blue Pullman - See our website for more details)"

 

The final line gives the web address www.oliviastrains.com

 

I am honestly not making this up - it is on page 113 of BRM June 2010 Vol 18 number 3.

 

 

Would copying the add. breach copyright, or all of use getting the rule of the copyright rule wrong????????

 

Yes it would work as FREE advertising and the Mag. may not like it , but would it breach copyright???

 

I would think that a manufacturer would BE happy for his product to get as much exposure as would be good.

 

Just my thoughts

 

OzzyO.

[The Stationmaster]

 

(snippet)

Also, may I point out that the Dapol Class 22s and Class 41s are being produced in the same manner as the Blue Pullman model is, namely drawings etc, and they are taking some time to be produced. The only difference in the production here for OT is that they have asked for a deposit (refundable) and this has been proven not to be so unusual as to produce some of the comments that have been made.

 

Hugh Williams

 

 

You seem to miss one very critical point as far as the BP is concerned - OT were asking for deposits when prospective purchasers didn't even know what they were going to make!

 

Now that seems to me a situation which is not only far from businesslike but also one that is hardly likely to encourage people to part with their cash. True it's not quite in the same league as me (for example) saying that I am commissioning 'a Scottish 0-6-0' and asking everybody who wants one to put down 20 quid before I say what it is, but it isn't that much different.

 

Now we know - from Hornby Magazine, but still not from OT's website - which one it will be, several weeks after it was announced. But looking at the same article which, if the detail in it is any guide, presumably followed some sort of chat between that magazine and OT I came across the comment that 'the WR power cars reputedly had an extra window'. Somebody is commssioning something and they don't even seem to be sure of that very obvious difference to the extent that they could make it clear in the interview? Yet again the lack of businesslike professionalism seems to shine through.

 

Now add to that rather shaky start in describing the product the fact that the commssioner wants money upfront and it should hardly be surprising that some people express concern or keep a very tight hold on their wallets - and who can blame them?

[Pennine MC]

Has it been forgotten that the Blue Pullman has headed Wish List surveys,

I think that quote sums up much of the problem - 'the Blue Pullman' isnt one train, and never was. It's traditionally wished for by folk who either dont know or dont care about the variations, or would only be happy if it was their choice that was made, and the wish tends to be addressed by people who dont know what they're getting into.

And incidentally, I thought model railways were fun.

 

Maybe so. But this side of it is business, there's a lot of money involved for all concerned.

 

If there are folk who want to lay down £75 - without a concrete idea which version they're buying, without any real certainty that the remaining cars to make up the train will ever appear, with an ever-changing set of T&Cs that may or may not prove to be binding and all this still without any reassurance from anyone senior at Olivia's, despite their presence here - and if they then want to go on to call that 'fun', then that's their call I suppose

 

 

... all this 'frothing' and know-it-all commentary, well what good is that to the model producers who are suppose to be on the same side as the modellers? I f there is some genuine knowledge to be passed on to Olivia's regarding the subjects, well give them a hand,

 

 

This 'knowledge' that you suppose should be passed on is nothing special AFAIK; it's just what's readily available on the Net or in the specialised publications covering these units. I really dont think it's incumbent on the members of this site to provide information at such a basic level. At the risk of overstating a point which has already been well-worn, Olivia's should have set out from a position of looking like they'd done their homework on this. Even now, I'd be considerably more impressed if there was some visible evidence that (for instance) the pros and cons of producing Midland vs Western sets was being considered.

[m0rris]

Whilst I would love this project to suceed, in that it will help other modellers, and I don;t want to pee on anyones parade.....

There are some concerns, not with the 76 popular loco enough takers for the price, but with the BP, essentially a higher spec and more accurate Triang set, ie two power cars and a parlour, for £300, I do understand the this is a three car unit yadda yadda yadda, but whilst many have cried for the BP, just as with anything many cry and then don't want the goods especially when they cost £300, so personally I would be worried about the potential for this project since it is a massive financial undertaking with even greater potential for going ti.s up.

 

But best of luck and I do genuinely hope it suceeds!

 

M0rris

[Guest dilbert]

Forget the BP for a moment... how many people would place a ~25% deposit on a house where the architect/builder commits to provide a new (and yet to be built) dwelling, that to all intents and purposes, consists basically of four walls and a roof (and regardless of whether a loan is required or not), and, no other detail ???

 

Back to the BP ...

 

My initial thoughts on the subject of a deposit for an RTR product (even in limited quantities) were 'this is interesting and could be a business model for the future'.

 

And yet ...

on the one hand, the people wanting an RTR BP are pushing for support of the project so that it does happen - on the other hand, there appears to be more people asking for additional info. before making a commitment, and to a certain extent, are not receiving this information.

 

All round you can detect the disappointment that has since resulted.

 

I also hope that the BP project works out and meets expectations for all involved ; customer, commissioner and manufacturer...dilbert

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnR]

Forget the BP for a moment... how many people would place a ~25% deposit on a house where the architect/builder commits to provide a new (and yet to be built) dwelling, that to all intents and purposes, consists basically of four walls and a roof (and regardless of whether a loan is required or not), and, no other detail ???

 

 

Have you not seen "Grand Designs" on channel 4? thats exactly what a great many people do!

[Neal Ball]

Blue Pullman:

 

Like the perenial wish list demands, this topic will run and run, during the next year / 18 months!

 

Living in the commercial world, I would suggest Olivias Trains engage in the debate, then their chances of getting the model right will improve no end. - Maybe to ensure faith is restored they should do the 76 first.....

 

I am very interested in a Western Blue Pullman (and have amassed information to know the difference), Nanking Blue, with original configuration, DCC fitted.... sound??? (what did they sound like?)

 

However, for me to part with any money, I would like to know what I am going to get. It remains a very exciting proposition - I do share the concern mentioned above and by Chris Leigh in Model Rail, that I hope firstly everyone gets it right and secondly that all these special commissions do not hit the shelves at the same time. (This latter point I worry is about to happen with Hornby about to release the GW Castle and 28xx)

 

Regards,

[D605Eagle]

 

 

I am very interested in a Western Blue Pullman (and have amassed information to know the difference), Nanking Blue, with original configuration, DCC fitted.... sound??? (what did they sound like?)

 

 

Are there any MAN L12V18/21 engined locos left working in Germany? Sound could be had off one of those if there are any.

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

However, for me to part with any money, I would like to know what I am going to get. It remains a very exciting proposition - I do share the concern mentioned above and by Chris Leigh in Model Rail, that I hope firstly everyone gets it right and secondly that all these special commissions do not hit the shelves at the same time. (This latter point I worry is about to happen with Hornby about to release the GW Castle and 28xx)

 

Regards,

 

I don't really see how all these things can turn up a the same time - unless there are even more factories in China making 'em than we have been told about or they aren't exporting to anywhere else in the world.

 

We know the D63XX/Class 22 and the D6XX are sitting on pretty firm target delivery dates as are Model Rail's Sentinel and Kernow's Beattie WT as, presumably are some of the some time previously announced Heljan items. But with all that lot going where are some of the other items sitting in the queue?

 

Hatton's Heljan D95XX/Class 14 slipped and they had locos around to measure, the D6XX has come back in after earlier slippage due to problems finding drawings .. and so on. No Blue Pullman to measure and, I presume, quite a number of vehicles to get into design and manufacture for it; an EM1/Class 76 sitting in the NRM but it's a bit light on some detail while the EM2s in Holland are also modified. Meanwhile Heljan are having to chase drawings and photos and little else for some of their own planned range.

 

Admittedly with Bachmann, Dapol, and Heljan in the field there are three lots of design teams at work but that doesn't cover all the metal cutting for tools, and manufacture. I would be surprised if some of what has already been announced for 2011 sees the light of a British stockroom before the spring of 2012.

[Ozexpatriate]

... and secondly that all these special commissions do not hit the shelves at the same time. (This latter point I worry is about to happen with Hornby about to release the GW Castle and 28xx)

 

I don't really see how all these things can turn up a the same time ... Admittedly with Bachmann, Dapol, and Heljan in the field there are three lots of design teams at work but that doesn't cover all the metal cutting for tools, and manufacture. I would be surprised if some of what has already been announced for 2011 sees the light of a British stockroom before the spring of 2012.

I quite agree. The Castle is released, even though Tintagel Castle and Swindon Castle are dragging on I do expect to see them in 2010. One hopes the 28xx will be around sometime in 2011 and given Hornby's recent delivery pace, I'd be delightfully stunned to see it in 2010. I don't see how anyone would expect the Blue Pullman to appear until 2012.

 

I don't recall any delivery commitments being made, other than (based on this thread) the EM1 appears to be scheduled first.

[Pugsley]

Forget the BP for a moment... how many people would place a ~25% deposit on a house where the architect/builder commits to provide a new (and yet to be built) dwelling, that to all intents and purposes, consists basically of four walls and a roof (and regardless of whether a loan is required or not), and, no other detail ???

Plenty of people who were daft enough to buy flats 'off plan' fall into this category, although quite a few have now been burnt with falling values. Having said that, at least they had a rough idea of the size of what they'd be getting, but not much more.

 

 

B./ If the Falcon, (of which I own two), is such a 'fine' model made from drawings, how did they manage to get the fuel tanks wrong, to the extent they mirrored one side?

Not to mention the fundmental error with the shape of the cab roof and it's knock-on effect on the windscreens...

[brian daniels]

an EM1/Class 76 sitting in the NRM but it's a bit light on some detail while the EM2s in Holland are also modified.

 

And the good old NRM would not let them get a ladder to look at the roof or go in the cabs

[craigwelsh]

And the good old NRM would not let them get a ladder to look at the roof or go in the cabs

Not surprised about getting a ladder, I'm sure any business would be a bit worried these days about that one!

Mind you they might have been a bit miffed having already laser scanned it ready for modelling... (note there is no fact behind the modelling bit afaik!)

 

As for my comment about magazine funding, it was indeed a joke as I don't expect Hornby mag to pay them for free advertising! The underlying point about why important details are only discussed in one mag is however still relevant and still amazes me. Updating a website is really rather quick, either copy the new page to your ftp server yourself or give it to your webmaster to do.. No idea what you mean about the legal responsibilities of the web, the original T&Cs wouldn't have gone up if each page was carefully considered before posting. Its info on what would be ordered via the deposit that is wanted and this isn't anything legally dubious.

 

I have to ask Hugh why you have joined rmweb just to post on this topic?

 

Falcon is indeed a bad example of Heljan quality as its not amazing though close enough to work with. The cab is off though.

 

As for the class 22/41, I haven't paid anything there but have seen some very nice CAD of the base for the 22 and there are now livery details for the 41. Same with Hattons 28 and Rails are doing a survey for the Twins as I suggested would be best for the Pullman. I can't remember a survey of Midland vs Western though I might have missed it. I'll have a read of the Hornby article at the club later while the track and ballast is gluing but the window difference in the power cars is in the LH guards door on the sides and doesn't appear to be there in some early shots of some LMR power cars whereas the WR sets all seem to have them. There are notes about it in Kevin Robertson's books. Some pictures its difficult to tell what is there and whether its a window, a painted window or the imagination.. I think it was discussed in the Yahoo group though.

[cctransuk]

... the window difference in the power cars is in the LH guards door on the sides and doesn't appear to be there in some early shots of some LMR power cars whereas the WR sets all seem to have them. There are notes about it in Kevin Robertson's books. Some pictures its difficult to tell what is there and whether its a window, a painted window or the imagination.. I think it was discussed in the Yahoo group though.

 

The principle difference between the Midland and Western power cars was the presence on the Western ones of destination roller blinds on the sides; the Midland cars didn't have them.

 

The small windows in the LH guard's doors were aa early addition to the Midland power cars; the Western cars may have had them from new. They were provided in association with door edge mirrors / periscopes to enable guards to look along the train as was possible when duckets were provided.

 

I may be wrong - I haven't got the Robertson BP 'bible' to hand - but I believe the passenger accommodation in the Western power cars was 2nd class. All accommodation in the Midland sets was 1st class.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/

[craigwelsh]

The principle difference between the Midland and Western power cars was the presence on the Western ones of destination roller blinds on the sides; the Midland cars didn't have them.

Yes, these two pictures show that difference though I was responding to an earlier remark about the window specifically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Midland_Pullman_at_Cheadle_Heath.001.jpg

http://www.railcar.co.uk/hisOthers/BPintro.htm

 

The small windows in the LH guard's doors were aa early addition to the Midland power cars; the Western cars may have had them from new. They were provided in association with door edge mirrors / periscopes to enable guards to look along the train as was possible when duckets were provided.

The door mirror explains some of the odd reflections in some shots, I hope Heljan can pull that off ala Hornby A4s etc. One of the shots in the supplement shows the window on a 1962 Midland Pullman so yes its quite early. There is another shot showing the as build version without too though. I guess it'd be easier to remove it from the tooling later on if required than to add it on.

 

I may be wrong - I haven't got the Robertson BP 'bible' to hand - but I believe the passenger accommodation in the Western power cars was 2nd class. All accommodation in the Midland sets was 1st class.

Regards,

John Isherwood,Cambridge Custom Transfers.

Yes it was, 18 seats 2nd class. http://www.railcar.co.uk/hisOthers/BPplan.htm

[pete_mcfarlane]

And the good old NRM would not let them get a ladder to look at the roof or go in the cabs

 

It's parked next to the balcony area, so you can get a good view of the roof as a normal visitor to the NRM. As for peering in the cab, MSI Manchester have a class 76 cab with a perspex back, so you can see inside it.

[craigwelsh]

It's parked next to the balcony area, so you can get a good view of the roof as a normal visitor to the NRM. As for peering in the cab, MSI Manchester have a class 76 cab with a perspex back, so you can see inside it.

Presumably they wanted to apply a tape measure though?

[pete_mcfarlane]

Presumably they wanted to apply a tape measure though?

 

I thought they used those magic laser scanning machines these days?

[craigwelsh]

I thought they used those magic laser scanning machines these days?

The model of the 86 suggests otherwise for Heljan.. You'd need a decent gantry though to do a proper scan of the roof details from all the angles required.

[brian daniels]

I can't see the NRM letting a big scanner in a public hall if they would not let them in the cab! The way the 76 is positioned it's a job to get decent pictures of the roof. Here's one I took a couple of years ago, it's too end on.

[Neal Ball]

The principle difference between the Midland and Western power cars was the presence on the Western ones of destination roller blinds on the sides; the Midland cars didn't have them.

 

The small windows in the LH guard's doors were aa early addition to the Midland power cars; the Western cars may have had them from new.

 

I may be wrong - I haven't got the Robertson BP 'bible' to hand - but I believe the passenger accommodation in the Western power cars was 2nd class. All accommodation in the Midland sets was 1st class.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/

 

 

Right on both counts