Olivia's Class 76 LE (inc earlier Blue Pullman content)

[The Stationmaster]

They might not be obliged to provide more information Paddy, but I think the point Mike is making is that they'd engender more goodwill and confidence in the project if they did. If this does fail (for whatever reason), it could conceivably put the kybosh on a RTR BP ever appearing.

 

Thanks Ian for hitting on the head the nail I sheered down the side of.

 

This is going to have to be a big project - perhaps over an extended period - or it may well suffer commercially. There are already misgivings (various) being expressed on matters of detail, or cost, or whatever (like we don't even know from the website if it's a Western or a Midland set?). So I think what anybody who is sinking in their cash is going to look for is reassurance; the sort of reassurance that will build confidence. And I think being open and offering maximum information is the best way to do that.

 

Information about the EM1 & EM2 is certainly more concrete and it includes both price and projected delivery dates - you know more or less where your deposit will be leading in their case.

[coachmann]

I'm not so sure about Woodhead electrics working alongside steam and diesels. At Guide Bridge yes, and at the changeover at Godley Junction, but it was basically electric all the way after July 1954.

 

All this talk of electric loocs has got me thinking of the years I spent watching trains from my birthplace in Newton, Hyde, which I went back to often after moving to Oldham The masts were there when I started train-watching on my own in 1950, but all trains were steam hauled for another four years. Trains were clearly heard from my grans home until 1954, but one could only hear the passage of wheels after the electrics arrived on the line. I think there was a regular Class 37 hauled passenger train in the 1960s.

['CHARD]

I'm not so sure about Woodhead electrics working alongside steam and diesels. At Guide Bridge yes, and at the changeover at Godley Junction, but it was basically electric all the way after July 1954.

 

 

I think there was a regular Class 37 hauled passenger train in the 1960s.

 

I think the Harwich boat train was 37-hauled, but I claim no expertise in this regard, just a half-remembered flickr image

 

You've hit the nail on the head for me with the Guide Bridge and Godley references. The reason I added Rotherwood at the white rose end was because the locations where the line met other metals, or the knitting stopped, are those that I reckon will seed most layout ideas. I expect that mixing steam, diesel and 1500 DC will actually prove irresistible to many modellers who are keen to use a bit of licence.

[Guest dilbert]

There is a point here and I suppose it depends if one is a 'modern image D&E modeller' and sees he Blue Pullman 1960-onwards 'green-era' as a not often modelled period. However, it seems to me that era is one of the most popular. Three types of motive power were at work, steam, electric and diesel.

 

I recall a childhood rhyme that I also played with my children when they were young tots :

 

"Round and round the garden, like a teddy bear... one step, two step... tickle you under there.".

 

The Class 14 (a commissioned model, no less) retails at over £100.

 

The BP is going to retail at a lot more than that due to the nature of the train.

 

I don't think that a specific modelling period plays a major influence in the case of the BP. I believe it's more a case of nostalgia (real or perceived) and the resultant potential price points that is creating pain (rather than laughter)... dilbert

[mow]

Not sure if this site has been mentioned, but I have been browsing the section on The Blue Pullman.

 

http://www.railcar.co.uk/hisOthers/BPintro.htm

[D605Eagle]

I wonder why it quotes the engines as NBL-MAN? as far as I'm aware they were pure MAN engines in those and didn't suffer from the unfortunate corner cutting that NBL did in making them under licence.

[Bob Reid]

I wonder why it quotes the engines as NBL-MAN? as far as I'm aware they were pure MAN engines in those and didn't suffer from the unfortunate corner cutting that NBL did in making them under licence.

 

Not according to the Railcar website - NBL/MAN L12V18/21BS Power Units so that kind of knocks the NBL "corner cutting" on the head!

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder why it quotes the engines as NBL-MAN? as far as I'm aware they were pure MAN engines in those and didn't suffer from the unfortunate corner cutting that NBL did in making them under licence.

 

Haresnape - usually a reliable and well informed source - quotes them as NBL/MAN and they definitely came wIth some of the 'characteristics' of engines from that source. But they did - in early years at least - have the benefit of an on-train fitter to keep an eye on them.

 

(But I have wondered over the years if the oil throwing and messiness was a trait of the MAN originals? The only engine compartment I have ever seen the inside of on a DB MAN engined loco was very clean even if it was doing its best to fail in traffic. BR ones could definitely get very 'messy' indeed.)

[Dave777]

I for one would be quite happy to see the old Triang/Hornby one reissued naturally with an up to date motor,yes its a very old model but whenever I see one at exhibitions or for sale at toy fair's they still look a decent model.

Out of interest does anyone think the old Triang moulds still exist.

 

With regards to the Triang tooling, I believe a while back (2 years or more now?) when the BP began to top the annual wishlist Pat Hammond mentioned on MREMag that Simon Kohler had asked for the toolings to be brought out of storage for inspection.

 

No more was ever forthcoming on the matter, so I am guessing they weren’t useable or… Hornby decided to upgrade them or make new ones from scratch (just offering up the possible outcomes, I draw no conclusions). The long and short of it is that I think if Hornby were going to do a Railroad version with the original toolings then we might have heard about it by now - even if they decided to upgrade it I don't think it should have taken this long.

 

Then again, perhaps Pat was just chucking a devious titbit out for the frothers to chew over…

[vac_basher]

I too would like to see more detail from OT before I put a deposit down, and I expect the set to be several hundred quid all in. In terms of quality I'd want something to at least the standard of Bachmans 108, a warmed over Triang/Railroad style model is something I'd return straight away. Like others I'm happy to order unseen, but I do need more detail before I take a punt on it.

 

I'd like to hear more from them on the 'coaches' and their availability, in particular production lead times.

 

I concur.

I don't mind paying several hundred quid for this, but like you I want to know exactly how much the total is likely to be and when they're likely to be released.

I'm not leaving a deposit now not knowing how long it will be before I'll be able to get my hands on my BP.

[brushman47544]

I too would be very reluctant to part with my money until I knew how much a full set would cost. But also, and more importantly, I would want to know for certain that a complete set would be produced. If I'm paying for a model to current standards of accuracy, then only being able to buy part of a set is pretty pointless for me at least and I would wait for the full set to be available before buying anything. If I wanted a reasonable representation only, then a cheaper reissued Hornby model (to Railroad range standards) would suffice.

[edcayton]

Surely the Railroad Range is aimed primarily at younger modellers, and therefore the BP would have no place in it as the target audience will never see the real thing either on the main line or preserved?

 

Ed

[S.A.C Martin]

Surely the Railroad Range is aimed primarily at younger modellers, and therefore the BP would have no place in it as the target audience will never see the real thing either on the main line or preserved?

 

Ed

 

If that was the case Ed, the Hawksworth County model, nor the Patriot model, which are due this year in that very range from Hornby, would be present.

 

In any event - the tools don't exist anymore. It was discussed on the old forum.

 

EDIT: and just to emphasise - I mean they won't see the real things any time soon!

[craigwelsh]

If that was the case Ed, the Hawksworth County model, nor the Patriot model, which are due this year in that very range from Hornby, would be present.

 

In any event - the tools don't exist anymore. It was discussed on the old forum.

Anything with a name or Pullman on it seems to do well with the core market in this area with Hornby. I doubt a cheap Blue Train people hadn't seen would stop people buying it with its smart livery.

 

Hornby do like to tease though, remember the 'Blue Pullman livery' 06 0-4-0?

 

Are we confusing the Kitmaster tooling here? There were always stories about that being broken up in front of people. Apologies if the Triang tool was also discussed.

 

 

Personally I was a complete WR 8-car Pullman to modern standards (Bachmann standard really, not Heljan). Triang never did the full train so that solves nothing.

 

I won't be supporting Olivia's until:

 

I know the whole train is happening.

I know a rough total cost.

I know a rough eta.

I know its the WR one.

I know its not compromised on shape.

I know what happens if I want to cancel or if the project folds with the deposit.

 

Although they are a reputable dealer of DCC sound chips specifically and it seems also various locos this announcement doesn't seem as concrete as the EM1/EM2 one. I would have expected them to get that completed first anyway which would tie up a deposit for quite a few years anyway.

[James]

I would have expected them to get that completed first anyway which would tie up a deposit for quite a few years anyway.

 

I'd agree with you there - the EM types are niche ones I think and as such would be easier to make a success of it and get a lot of good publicity and that would no doubt have led to very good publicity and perhaps made the BP much easier to to bring to the market.

[johnd]

I think the Harwich boat train was 37-hauled, but I claim no expertise in this regard, just a half-remembered flickr image

 

You've hit the nail on the head for me with the Guide Bridge and Godley references. The reason I added Rotherwood at the white rose end was because the locations where the line met other metals, or the knitting stopped, are those that I reckon will seed most layout ideas. I expect that mixing steam, diesel and 1500 DC will actually prove irresistible to many modellers who are keen to use a bit of licence.

Your quite right a 37 would usually be found hauling the boat train. From my memories when it terminated at Manchester Piccadilly the turn round time was 45 min. Before that didnt it go into Central and then on to Liverpool (cross country in those days).

 

Now theres a thought 76's along side the forthcomming AL elecs all that missing is the 1500 Vlt EMU that ran to Glossop/Hadfield. The diesel classes seen along side already exsist. 40's,24/25's,08, 47's from 65 onwards split headcode 37 for the boat train, 45/46 on the St Pancras.All we need is the SR early diesels as well, these ran on the Manchester service I seem to remember plus 10000/10001.

 

If you back to the 77's then there is the Scots/Patriots/Jubilees/Black 5/Jinties etc.

 

Whose going to model London Road/Piccadilly then, dont forget the bus depot (with its skid pan) between the lines where the lines split a Ardwick either

[zigzag]

I must back up the other posters on this subject.

 

Yes, I would love a BP, and will happily reserve/buy in advance.

 

But, I really need more detail on the project such as,

 

Details and timescales of what will be produced - what will be produced first, just the power cars, or full sets, or whatever.

Estimated total price - obviuosly dependant on teh above

Timescales

Liveries

 

If i get theses details then Ill happily put down my £75, providing it was secure.

 

Although I do applaud OT fro taking on this project I feel that they have gone off half cocked. If its done properly they will have a winner on thier hands, done badly and I feel it would kill off the BP for ever, done half way then we will be swamped by yet more power cars just as we are now.

[Francis deWeck]

I wonder if it would be best for all these questions to be presented to the Proprietor of the Shop. I have no connections with Olivia's, other than being a customer. What I have found out is

 

1. Olivia's have commissioned the Models, placing their own deposit on the Products.

2. The deposit is refundable, should the occasion arise - i.e. non production.

3. The deposit forms a contract with Olivia's.

4. There is a definite date for the production of the EM1 and the Blue Pullman.

5. A receipt is issue for the deposits. Can't get much simpler than that, can it?

 

JohnD has all the details of locos around at the time. There were also V2's, A3's, Brits and B1s, B16s, Directors which ran into Sheffield Victoria, so there is plenty of scope for all.

 

Regards,

 

Hugh Williams....

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder if it would be best for all these questions to be presented to the Proprietor of the Shop. I have no connections with Olivia's, other than being a customer. What I have found out is

 

1. Olivia's have commissioned the Models, placing their own deposit on the Products.

2. The deposit is refundable, should the occasion arise - i.e. non production.

3. The deposit forms a contract with Olivia's.

4. There is a definite date for the production of the EM1 and the Blue Pullman.

5. A receipt is issue for the deposits. Can't get much simpler than that, can it?

 

Regards,

Hugh Williams....

 

Well in my view it could get a lot better by saying what is actually going to be produced.

 

All the photos on the website appear to be of Western sets so is it going to be a Western pair of power cars? Or is it going to be an LM pair in spite of what the pictures suggest? That to me seems rather basic, a bit like a slightly milder version of saying 'we are going to do a BR standard pacific' but omitting to mention which one while still seeking a deposit.

 

While I wish the project well and hope to see money put where mouths have long been clamouring I agree with others above that thus far things do seem a bit off course for anyone thinking of buying.

[Les Bird]

As an aside on the subject of deposits, I remember sending a deposit of £1 to MG Sharp for the forthcoming Trix model of a Black 5!. This was when MG Sharp were still based in Glasgow. Surely I should receive the model soon?

[CullingworthGNR]

As I cycle past the site of Reddish depot on my way to work, I think it'd be rude not to buy one of these electric locos! Though I would prefer the Class 77 so might wait for that - it'll give me time to save £150.

[Summer_Saturday]

Olivia's Trains now seem to be listing limited edition Class 33s and a 58 in fictitious liveries (Freightliner and Loadhaul): http://www.oliviastrains.co.uk/shop.asp

[Martin_R]

I have been watching this topic some while and have to admit that the BP / EM1 / EM2 have been at the top of my wish list for a long, long time.

 

If I knew they were to be made to the same standard as say the Bachmann DP1 I would, and I guess many others would, do anything to make sure I had them in my collection. The big question for me is will they be as good as DP1? Not knowing what sort quality and accuracy we will get and additionally in the case of BP wether we will get a complete unit [WR and/or LMR] - I'm afraid at the moment this is what is holding me back from committing to placing orders.

[Andy Y]

I wonder if it would be best for all these questions to be presented to the Proprietor of the Shop. I have no connections with Olivia's, other than being a customer. What I have found out is

 

1. Olivia's have commissioned the Models, placing their own deposit on the Products.

2. The deposit is refundable, should the occasion arise - i.e. non production.

3. The deposit forms a contract with Olivia's.

4. There is a definite date for the production of the EM1 and the Blue Pullman.

5. A receipt is issue for the deposits. Can't get much simpler than that, can it?

 

JohnD has all the details of locos around at the time. There were also V2's, A3's, Brits and B1s, B16s, Directors which ran into Sheffield Victoria, so there is plenty of scope for all.

 

Regards,

 

Hugh Williams....

 

A busy weekend has meant that I've not been able to re-visit this topic as soon as I would have liked.

 

Experience has taught me to be quite guarded when a new poster joins to make a post of clarification whilst claiming to have no connection and the above statement does seem to be describing a party line rather than a customer's perspective.

 

The whole thing looks to me as though it's been very poorly thought through or communicated. I would expect that any clarification on points 2 and 3 to come directly from the commissioning retailer and clearly defined prior to the point of placing a deposit for order rather than from a person with no connection. The claim of independence nullifies evidence of those facts unless there is written proof that you as a customer are now in possession of and that no-one else has been to date.

 

There has been a recent registration to the forum from a representative of Olivia Trains but no posts or official comment has been made or directed to me to allay concerns. There is an open invitation to do so if they wish.

 

I am sure that OT will have made some form of deposit to Heljan at this initial stage but there will also be further payments due at pre-production stages and I believe that deposits taken will be used to enable that.

 

I could personally be making substantial purchases of at least one of the items but I am choosing not to commit substantial amounts of money to a sole trader with no proven experience of delivering a major product on time, to a price and to an acceptable quality level.

 

This issue has been a substantial talking point over the weekend and there are a lot of fundamental concerns about this, in line with the views expressed of several members, from a cross section of the hobby. I was party to comments made in response to questions from several persons of repute, experience and judgement who I am prepared to trust that raised severe personal concerns over this commissioning process.

 

I do not normally place myself in a position of making such a statement but my advice to prospective purchasers is to hold fire until there is more substantive evidence of what a buyer is committing themselves to.

 

No-one can predict the future accurately but I feel it's worth asking one's self sensible questions to protect your own commitment and investment. Caveat emptor.

 

I would feel far more comfortable if we were discussing this project and it involved known entities who have a track record of results in this area.

[The Stationmaster]

Olivia's Trains now seem to be listing limited edition Class 33s and a 58 in fictitious liveries (Freightliner and Loadhaul): http://www.oliviastrains.co.uk/shop.asp

 

 

This seems very odd to me. If Hattons and Kernow can put retail prices on items coming from new tooling up to a year before they are released why can't OT put a price on an existing moulding which is simply finished in a different livery? I know the VAT rate might change (so must OT), I know the exchange rate of the GBP will change (so must OT) but those sort of changes don't seem to have stopped anybody else advertising prices on timescales of even 12 months let alone 7 months, and suitable 'riders' can always be added.

 

And again we see the deposit thing - 25 quid on a loco, albeit with a different livery job, that you can pick up retail on a good week from the right outlet for no more than twice that.

 

I learnt a long while back that there's no such thing as a free lunch (well most of the time ) but here we have the opposite, money being sought against promises. It tends to suggest to me, especially now a bit of relatively simple re-livery stuff has been added, that someone might be looking for something more akin to capital than 'commitment to buy'.

 

Everything thus far doesn't quite have the sort of 'reassurance' I felt with, e.g, Hattons (although I waited some time before ordering my D95XX as I wanted to see how well the shape had been captured before committing). At the moment I feel OT might be selling themselves rather short on some of their projects and that, I think, will hit the confidence of potential buyers.