Olivia's Class 76 LE (inc earlier Blue Pullman content)

[petee19]

Exactly, dilbert. I don't think many posters in this thread realise how expensive this commision is going to be (or indeed ANY commision). Olivia's are taking a big gamble with this, and are asking for the customers who have been banging on about wanting this model to show their commitment. Yes, asking for a deposit up front is unusual, but then this model is unusual, the final cost isnt yet known, but then they are working with a named manufacturer, which should inspire some confidence.

 

Comparison's with Bachmann are unhelpful, as they are a) not a retailer, B) a much larger company with larger cash reserves and c) their commisions for teh NRm have been with a public sector body with the ability to call on reserves.

 

Heljan jave done limited editions for Hattons, so I think that shows that this is potentially a serious opportunity for a Blue Pullman to be made.

 

The possibility of a BP seems to be getting more and more expensive with each post.

I for one would be quite happy to see the old Triang/Hornby one reissued naturally with an up to date motor,yes its a very old model but whenever I see one at exhibitions or for sale at toy fair's they still look a decent model.

Out of interest does anyone think the old Triang moulds still exist.

 

Pete.

[Pixie]

The possibility of a BP seems to be getting more and more expensive with each post.

 

I guess it depends on your outlook - for me I'd much rather have high quality over low price. I'd have no problem paying £500 for a 6-car model if it represented good value for my moolah. I know this sort of figure would probably make the model out of reach for some (It'd take a lot of selling at my end to be able to afford it!) but I'd much rather wince and pay the higher figure for something that ticked all the boxes rather than pay £250 for something that that was luke-warm.

 

I for one would be quite happy to see the old Triang/Hornby one reissued naturally with an up to date motor,yes its a very old model but whenever I see one at exhibitions or for sale at toy fair's they still look a decent model.

 

Reintroduction of the old Tri-ang model probably wouldn't warrent anything other than the Railroad range. Tri-ang never produced the resturaunt car, the vehicles they did produce were underlength, rode on the wrong bogies and the underframe on the parlour cars were the same ones from the power cars. The old models are still available to those who want them and re-introducing them would offer little advantage for those trying to model these units accurately. I know that the Tri-ang model commands a relatively high price, but I imagine that if/when the Heljan/Olivia's Blue Pullmans hit the shop, the costs would drop as modellers have a new source.

 

Pix

[Pennine MC]

Reintroduction of the old Tri-ang model probably wouldn't warrent anything other than the Railroad range. Tri-ang never produced the resturaunt car, the vehicles they did produce were underlength, rode on the wrong bogies and the underframe on the parlour cars were the same ones from the power cars. The old models are still available to those who want them and re-introducing them would offer little advantage for those trying to model these units accurately. I know that the Tri-ang model commands a relatively high price, but I imagine that if/when the Heljan/Olivia's Blue Pullmans hit the shop, the costs would drop as modellers have a new source.

 

 

This is getting interesting now I wonder...

 

...if the BP market is split - between those who would actually be satisfied with a Railroad-level unit (generic centre cars, number thereof added to choice; modern drive; perhaps better bogies but most importantly, painted and finished to Hornby's current excellent standard); and those who do actually want a 'proper' scale model (adding in accurate detailing to current standards and correct formation)?

 

I'm sure it's more complex than that glib statement of extremes (for instance I'm sure that many 'scale' modellers have the old ones stashed away as the basis of a 'one day' project), but it could serve as the foundation of establishing just what the BP market actually *is*...

[frobisher]

Researched their market, produced a business plan, got the money from the bank

 

Check on 1, Check on 2 and 3..?

 

You do know lending mood banks are in at the moment? I suspect, if anything, the reason why Olivia's are taking deposits would be to secure the additional funding from the bank to enable the project to go ahead...

[The Stationmaster]

Check on 1, Check on 2 and 3..?

 

You do know lending mood banks are in at the moment? I suspect, if anything, the reason why Olivia's are taking deposits would be to secure the additional funding from the bank to enable the project to go ahead...

 

 

If that is the case then surely they should be saying so?

 

Obviously development costs money but presumably whoever is funding it will have carried out a financial assessment and produced a 'business case' (even if it is only written on the back of an envelope ). If the business case is good and is supported by market research (i.e wish list polls etc) then all is well and all that's needed is a source of money.

 

If the business case is not so bright then the project is a bit amiss somewhere - and should perhaps be subject to an 'if there is sufficient interest' rider? I know that could as easily kill it as make it run but as there has been so much frothing in the 'I want/need/must have a B- P-' vein it must surely have a good business case (unless folk are not prepared to put their money where their mouths are or the potential market divides in the way Pennine suggests above).

 

This project - or perhaps the handling of it - does, I feel, reveal some of the potential pitfalls in a retailer (or more properly 'non-manufacturer') led commercial development. It makes sound sense for manufacturers as they spread, or don't carry all of, the financial risk while sustaining their development and production teams. It also makes sense for the commissioners as they stand to make substantial profits - provided they have done their sums properly.

 

But if the commissioner calls for a deposit, especially quite a large amount, without making clear why they want them or exactly what product they are for, I begin to wonder why? Other commissioners such as Hattons and Kernow don't seem to have called for deposits, notwithstanding having taken on expensive research and development. So is this a simple 'money where mouth is' exercise or something more?

[Gulliver]

Quite agree. It does look like anyone paying the deposit is actually funding the initial research and tooling. That is not necessarily a problem if they were up front about it. I doubt many would object if the line was something like "We aim to produce a Blue Pullman following repeated requests from customers but this would be a large project. To show good faith we are asking customers to pay a refundable deposit of £75 towards the production of one of these models. Customers taking up this option will be helping to commission this model and to recognise this and reward their loyalty those customers will receive a small discount on the final price".

 

That, alongside full details of what is actually going to be produced, would be a more professional way of going about this?

[Gulliver]

Check on 1, Check on 2 and 3..?

 

You do know lending mood banks are in at the moment? I suspect, if anything, the reason why Olivia's are taking deposits would be to secure the additional funding from the bank to enable the project to go ahead...

The thing about deposits is they are actually meaningless for mail order customers. If you shop in person it is different, but anyone buying mail order is covered by distance selling laws which means that you can cancel your order at any time up to 7 days after receiving the goods and receive a full refund.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/about-the-oft/legal-powers/legal/distance-selling-regulations/

[Accurascale Fran]

I am somewhat tempted by the Blue Pullman and notice they are doing a sound version. Did these units run in a similar principle to HST's with an engine running at each end? I was wondering how this will work on the model, as they say on thier site only one decoder is needed for the whole train (ala Bachmann 4CEP). As a relative newcomer to all things DCC, would it be possible to have two engine sounds running at opposite ends running off one sound decoder?

[Guest Phil]

I would think a decoder would be needed in both power cars. Although the engines ran together ala HST, they were not 'synchronised' in phase, speed, or startup etc. A BP with the two identical sounds at each end would sound 'strange' at times.

 

Just to toss a little more fuel on the fire, I believe there was another small power unit under the kitchen car which obviously would have made a noise !!!

[The Stationmaster]

Just to toss a little more fuel on the fire, I believe there was another small power unit under the kitchen car which obviously would have made a noise !!!

 

 

180hp engines under each 2nd Class parlour car on the WR sets so rather like a dmu (without the gear changes ) and with better silencing.

[frobisher]

If that is the case then surely they should be saying so?

 

Obviously development costs money but presumably whoever is funding it will have carried out a financial assessment and produced a 'business case' (even if it is only written on the back of an envelope ). If the business case is good and is supported by market research (i.e wish list polls etc) then all is well and all that's needed is a source of money.

If the business case is not so bright then the project is a bit amiss somewhere - and should perhaps be subject to an 'if there is sufficient interest' rider? I know that could as easily kill it as make it run but as there has been so much frothing in the 'I want/need/must have a B- P-' vein it must surely have a good business case (unless folk are not prepared to put their money where their mouths are or the potential market divides in the way Pennine suggests above).

 

This project - or perhaps the handling of it - does, I feel, reveal some of the potential pitfalls in a retailer (or more properly 'non-manufacturer') led commercial development. It makes sound sense for manufacturers as they spread, or don't carry all of, the financial risk while sustaining their development and production teams. It also makes sense for the commissioners as they stand to make substantial profits - provided they have done their sums properly.

 

But if the commissioner calls for a deposit, especially quite a large amount, without making clear why they want them or exactly what product they are for, I begin to wonder why? Other commissioners such as Hattons and Kernow don't seem to have called for deposits, notwithstanding having taken on expensive research and development. So is this a simple 'money where mouth is' exercise or something more?

 

Hattons and Kernow probably have greater assets/turnover they can draw down on - simple as that. The way that this can work for Olivia's obviously means they need money up front. Kernow and Hattons get their money "up front" by letting people pre-order quite early.

[Pixie]

I wonder if the BP market is split - between those who would actually be satisfied with a Railroad-level unit (generic centre cars, number thereof added to choice; modern drive; perhaps better bogies but most importantly, painted and finished to Hornby's current excellent standard); and those who do actually want a 'proper' scale model (adding in accurate detailing to current standards and correct formation)?

 

I think for most models there is a level of a split market - it appears from speaking to a few dealer friends and reading on forums that the Hornby Railroad range has been massively popular with modellers who aren't phased about separate handrails and getting everything right, just something that can thrash around their track and capture the look of what it's meant to be. One shop owner I was speaking to said that the Railroad Mallard had actually outsold it's higher detailed and higher priced twin by quite some amount.

 

I'm assuming that the Heljan BP will be of a similar level and aimed at a similar target buyer as it's previous models. One thing is certain, no matter what 'level' the model is not everybody will be happy... C'est la vie.

 

Pix

[Peter Kazmierczak]

To me, it would make sense to initially produce the 6-car Midland Pullman. Satisfying both those modelling the Midland mainline of the LMR up to 1966, and later (after transfer to the WR) those with leanings towards hydraulic-land in the west. Also, being 6 rather than 8 cars, it's more easily accommodated on a layout.

 

If that sold well, then the full 8-car WR set could be the next step.

[coachmann]

If someone says they is gauging interest in producing a blue Pullman, they will be innundated with more mail than Father Christmas all saying yes, yes, yes.

 

Then when the model becomes available more than half of those yes replies become no, no, no for one reason or another....Am buying it next year, too expensive, its faulty, cab isnt right shape, I'd have been happy with a re-issued Triang, I'm waiting for the moon to be in the right quarter, etc etc etc.

 

Such projects aren't a game. They're a risk and RTR plastic is a gamble. Asking for a deposit makes people think twice and seriously.

[The Stationmaster]

Hattons and Kernow probably have greater assets/turnover they can draw down on - simple as that. The way that this can work for Olivia's obviously means they need money up front. Kernow and Hattons get their money "up front" by letting people pre-order quite early.

 

So why not say so? Are they worried that they might give the impression that they are under-capitalised, and surely you don't start a project if you can't afford to pay for it?

 

As Coach has said it could well be that they want to lock-in people to confirm a purchase (not a bad idea for all those reasons Coach has given) and there's nothing wrong with that. But, again, why not say so? It seems to be an established practice in the USA and some commissioners there make very clear that unless interest in the product is supported by sufficient deposit paid pre-orders they will not go ahead.

[Guest dilbert]

Of course it's a risk - the price of a full BP rake was set about a couple of years ago by the big players and the frothing is still going on about what people are prepared to pay (or even expecting to pay).

 

I sincerely hope that this this works for OTs in whatever form it takes - they need to at this point in time come up with a pricing schedule (and that would need a caveat that excludes VAT for example), invoke the arcane art of marketing and come up with a content scope and production dates, bolt on any extras that make an overall base package attractive moving forward, and optionally provide savings plan options that gives the punter a reason to invest - it's certainly going to take several months before the first items hit the market - It seems to me there there is an expectation to have the BP soon and "how about now?" in whatever form, which is not realistic.

 

Of course there is a possibility that the project gets stopped. This would be a shame because at least OTs are trying to do something to address a demand. Thereagain, it might take a lot of the froth out of the annual wishlist - if the BP project does not proceed and yet continues to be high up on the lists in the future then there is a big problem somewhere that needs to be addressed - is it likely that people might actually reflect on that they really want, and then balance that on what they can actually afford?...dilbert

[craigwelsh]

I would think a decoder would be needed in both power cars. Although the engines ran together ala HST, they were not 'synchronised' in phase, speed, or startup etc. A BP with the two identical sounds at each end would sound 'strange' at times.

Indeed it ideally needs two decoders although the Olivia's Trains website is showing Heljan 'powered couplings' pictures in the BP links so it does suggest they intend to through wire it..

 

A couple of people now seem to imply that 'people who want a BP should get behind this or the BP could fail'. Now I don't agree with that as there isn't really enough info currently on the project to make a firm commitment, its also Heljan doing it so that certainly doesn't inspire me without seeing it. This project to realise the Pullman could fail as much through bad communication of what is being done as any limitation on those who actually want one.

 

Personally i'd have thought it better to get the EM1/2 out of the way first. Even Hattons only did the cl14 at once and they are arguably the biggest retailer in the country..

[frobisher]

So why not say so? Are they worried that they might give the impression that they are under-capitalised, and surely you don't start a project if you can't afford to pay for it?

 

Why do they have to say so? This is the way they are choosing to do things. They have not said that if they fail to get enough deposits the project isn't going ahead, so let's not make assumptions that it won't. It's safe to assume that their business plan for the project, and whatever financial backup they have for the project presumes these deposits. You can assume that if you pay your deposit you're guarenteed to get one when they are produced until there is evidence to the contrary - there isn't BTW.

 

As Coach has said it could well be that they want to lock-in people to confirm a purchase (not a bad idea for all those reasons Coach has given) and there's nothing wrong with that. But, again, why not say so? It seems to be an established practice in the USA and some commissioners there make very clear that unless interest in the product is supported by sufficient deposit paid pre-orders they will not go ahead.

 

Because they aren't proceeding on that basis. Olivia's are proceeding on the basis that the project is going ahead regardless, the speed at which it goes ahead will probably depend on how many people pony up deposits, but that's suposition.

[Pennine MC]

Why do they have to say so? This is the way they are choosing to do things

 

They might not be obliged to provide more information Paddy, but I think the point Mike is making is that they'd engender more goodwill and confidence in the project if they did. If this does fail (for whatever reason), it could conceivably put the kybosh on a RTR BP ever appearing.

[chertsey chopper]

Thanks Pennine! Now I know why my last comment on Blue Pullmans met with your "Priceless" comment.

I did rather lead by the chin on that one for sure!

 

Back on track now...I know there have been more than a few "gauge public response before we go ahead with production" experiments like the Stove'R' project to name but one recent go.

But there's a couple of concerns I have which echo Penine's and Coachmann's to some degree, one, it's one thing to say you'd be interested to see another BP in production but quite another to commit to buy unless you'd seen a pre-production sample as some on here dont seem to trust Heljan to make it, the other concern is that because the BP is something of a mainline model how many modellers layouts are modelled for that period? I wouldn't have thought that era was among the most popular. I wont be buying one as it isn't in my time period.

I think it could be a very risky project.

 

Jules

[coachmann]

Chertsey Chopper said : the other concern is that because the BP is something of a mainline model how many modellers layouts are modelled for that period? I wouldn't have thought that era was among the most popular.

There is a point here and I suppose it depends if one is a 'modern image D&E modeller' and sees he Blue Pullman 1960-onwards 'green-era' as a not often modelled period. However, it seems to me that era is one of the most popular. Three types of motive power were at work, steam, electric and diesel.

 

If one looks at it from a geographical viewpoint, I wonder how many layouts exist based on the Manchester Central-Peak District-St.Pancras mainline, or the other on the Western Region? Indeed, can we also expect to see hundreds of miniature Woodhead lines springing forth once the electric locos become available.

 

The reason I ask this is because if mainstream Hornby and Bachmann were producing the models the whole country would know including all those mums & dads waiting to buy their children something new. As things are, I suspect only railway modellers will be aware of their existence.

[vac_basher]

A couple of people now seem to imply that 'people who want a BP should get behind this or the BP could fail'.

 

I want a BP, maybe even two , but I'm not leaving a £75 deposit so far in advance . And without knowing what the final price is going to be . It could even be a year or two before the BP comes out.... My friend, who isn't on RMweb, says much the same thing.

Not to knock Olivia's (If anything they deserve congratulating for taking on such a project B) ) but I find this all very vague, and think they shouldn't really have made the announcement until things were actually in gear. Like this it's as if they're just testing the waters.

[Dagworth]

can we also expect to see hundreds of miniature Woodhead lines springing forth once the electric locos become available.

 

[churchill nodding dog]

Ohhhhh YES....

 

[/churchill nodding dog]

 

Andi

['CHARD]

There is a point here and I suppose it depends if one is a 'modern image D&E modeller' and sees the Blue Pullman 1960-onwards 'green-era' as a not often modelled period. However, it seems to me that era is one of the most popular. Three types of motive power were at work, steam, electric and diesel.

 

If one looks at it from a geographical viewpoint, I wonder how many layouts exist based on the Manchester Central-Peak District-St.Pancras mainline, or the other on the Western Region? Indeed, can we also expect to see hundreds of miniature Woodhead lines springing forth once the electric locos become available.

 

The reason I ask this is because if mainstream Hornby and Bachmann were producing the models the whole country would know including all those mums & dads waiting to buy their children something new. As things are, I suspect only railway modellers will be aware of their existence.

 

You make some thought-provoking points there, Coach.

 

I model 1968, so right in the mix era-wise, but I'm also avowedly parochial to my Borders theme, and won't justify a BP on a whim under any circumstances, beautiful as I think the train is, particularly the later Blue & Grey Western variant. Now had this been 10 years ago when a Birmingham Snow Hill what-if was my layout theme...

 

Regards the Woodhead electrics, I think that the release of these could well spawn a host of Woodhead themed layouts. I really do believe the latent demand is there in each era from transition to closure. Working alongside very popular classes of steam and diesel, with prototype inspiration from plenty of locations, stations, stabling points; Reddish depot, the tunnel, Worsborough, Torside, Penistone, Dinting, Guide Bridge, Sheffield Vic, Rotherwood, Wadsley Bridge - and that lot are without even thinking about it for any longer than it took to type the list (and I wouldn't even call myself a particular devotee of the line!).

 

Regarding your last point though, without wishing to go O/T, I think this misplaces the influence of the Big Two to some extent. I don't think Bachmann's profile is the same outside modelling circles as Hornby's by any means. And I can't think of any Hornby release in recent years that has captured the public's attention, even with avowedly 'populist' items marketed at very specific markets, like the Olympic Javelin. You'd probably find 'Flying Scotsman' was the most recalled 'train' without Hornby saying a single word about it.

 

 

[woodenhead]

The only place where both the BP and the 76 could be seen together would be Reddish Depot, you'd need only the one BP but quite a few 76s. And you can throw in a couple of the new Bachmann 04s to run freight trains to/from Dewsnap to Liverpool/Trafford via Fallowfield.

 

Glad I'm in N gauge, that would be tempting (but expensive).