Olivia's Class 76 LE (inc earlier Blue Pullman content)

[vac_basher]

All showing as back in stock today

 

No way am I parting with a £75 deposit not knowing how much the finished set will cost though.

[Fenman]

The special orders website appears to be up and running so I tried placing my order, only to get into one of those Hellish loops...

 

They don't seem to be able to do ecommerce themselves, so you find yourself on a Paypal (US) site. I had a bad experience with that shower so I'm not giving them my money: and the website has a section helpfully labelled "contact us".

 

So I phone them, and the phone just rings and rings and rings... it's quarter past five. Maybe they go home at 5? I dunno, and the website doesn't seem to say.

 

I figured I'd send them an email but... I can't find an email address -- there's certainly nothing on the "contact us" page.

 

I'm now a bit suspicious: has anyone ever used this shop?! First the schoolboy error of putting their incomplete website up, and now a feeling of frustration as I try to give them my money and find I can't. Maybe they're right and I'm wrong, that this is the way to run a business. But they don't seem to feature in RMWeb's list of model shops, either.

 

So now I'm beginning to wish these models were being manufactured and sold in the standard way through all the usual channels.

 

All this frothing from me and it's not even the BP that I'm after!

 

Paul

[MickD]

Hi Fenman,

If you go to the website proper there are 2 Nos. 1 up till 5pm and one for after hours.

 

http://www.oliviastrains.com/

 

MickD.

[Fenman]

Hi Fenman,

If you go to the website proper there are 2 Nos. 1 up till 5pm and one for after hours.

 

http://www.oliviastrains.com/

 

MickD.

 

Ah! Thanks.

[craigwelsh]

Olivia's Trains have been selling sound chips for a few years now I think and they are certainly reputable (unlike that literal 'schoolboy effort' to get Leader done via paypal donations..).

 

It is a bit silly releasing a 1/2 finished website into the wild though and leaving out any T&C for what happens with this deposit.

[Ozexpatriate]

It is a bit silly releasing a 1/2 finished website into the wild though and leaving out any T&C for what happens with this deposit.

The website is in much better shape than it was 24 hours ago, but you're essentially right - there's no indication of what the total cost will be, beyond the £75.00 deposit.

 

Plus the model appears to be limited to a three-car set: power + kitchen + dummy power, with no indication on whether this will be to Midland or Western Pullman specifications.

 

Given that there are two camps of Blue Pullman fans - people who want to see an accurate model done to moderns standards and people who would be happy with an updated version of the generic Triang model - based on the website, this edition seems to be focused on the latter group.

[James]

I don't know about much about trade descriptions but if something says 'From £60' but then turns out to be £154, as in the case of the EM2, then surely this is wrong?

[ebbwdent]

BP - £180 : 3car

[ebbwdent]

 

There is something 'uneasy' about the whole set-up , particularly the wording saying 'From £75 ( for the power car, kitchen car, and dummy) when there is no chance of that being the total cost when you are warned you are responsible for the additional payment nearer delivery. Nothing mentioned about 'cancelling' , and what happens to the what appears to be a deposit.

mmmmmm my card is staying in the wallet at the moment.

 

I agree, but we are a cynical bunch sometimes. Lots of threads here that the BP will never happen or it'll cost £600, and when a retailer takes a punt on it, we're all critics. Some of the posts come very close to making nasty slurs on Olivias (to whom i have no connection). Thats unfair, but i suppose is the British psyche building up, only to knock down. Perhaps Heljan themselves want some cash up front for the toolings and is a small shop in Sheffield just going to happen to have this money lying around? Or get a loan from the bank?

 

Perhaps we should think about this differently - Olivias Trains seem prepared to take a gamble and this a model that has been requested so many times by our hobby - perhaps its time for us to put our money where our mouth is. (But mine will be £100 on me credit card - just in case!!)

[Zunnan]

I find it a little offputting that they're proposing a 3 car unit based around a kitchen as the units were basically two identical halves coupled together (until 1971?). I would think selling the unit as a 4 car with two Parlour Firsts would work better, being as the firsts were the only common coach across the regions, and were essentially the middle of the unit; then additional coaches could be sold as twin packs making it easier to form a correct unit from either region. Two MKF for the LMR would complete a 6 car set, two TKF kitchens would give a reasonable shorty WR unit and then two MPS for a complete WR 8 car unit.

[vac_basher]

BP - £180 : 3car

 

Sorry to question you Ebbwdent, but is that a fact? Are you connected to Oliviastrains?

 

£180 isn't too bad really. I was expecting this to cost a bit more (Still, this will be expensive, what with Lion and the Twins and all )

 

Now, as soon as we can have an official confirmation of that on their website and the terms and conditions, then I shall be placing an order..

[Gulliver]

Perhaps we should think about this differently - Olivias Trains seem prepared to take a gamble and this a model that has been requested so many times by our hobby - perhaps its time for us to put our money where our mouth is. (But mine will be £100 on me credit card - just in case!!)

They are not taking much of a gamble though if this is the case? If everyone has to put their money up front on a deposit then it is actually all these people who are paying for the development. Does this mean they will have to wait until sufficient people have done so before proceeding?

 

Hattons and Kernow have both commissioned brand new models and neither of them asked for money up front. Presumably on their models they did as most businesses do. Researched their market, produced a business plan, got the money from the bank and then started taking orders, with the courage of their convictions that the model will sell.

 

This whole thing does seem a little amateurish. Given how long they must have been working on this before the announcement the website really should have been ready on day 1.

 

It is perhaps a little more reasonable for the EM1 which has a date of June next year. There is no date for the Blue Pullman so how long is your £75 tied up for and as others have mentioned how much will it eventually cost?

[ebbwdent]

They are not taking much of a gamble though if this is the case? If everyone has to put their money up front on a deposit then it is actually all these people who are paying for the development. Does this mean they will have to wait until sufficient people have done so before proceeding?

 

 

 

Really? It was enough of a gamble that Bachmann and Hornby didn't want to do it. As for getting money from the bank, if i was a bank manager and read some of the negative posts on this forum (and even this thread) about the BP, i'm not sure i'd be too keen to lend.

 

No, I'm not connected in any form to any model shop. I just happened to call up Olivias Trains yesterday and have a chat with the man there. I think they're wary about commiting in print to a final price at what is still a very early stage of development. FTR, i did make it clear that it was my intention to order a set (and i will), but i wanted some guidance as to the final price first. I was told that it would be around £170 to £180 for a three car set, with delivery midway next year

 

Perhaps the retailer will take note of this in the coming few days and weeks and amend the website accordingly. Unless I'm mistaken, the EM1 and EM2 final prices are already known

[Downendian]

Well .......of course it's a risk for everyone, but I've stumped up my £75, Blue-Grey for me, the WR early 1970s Pullman has always been almost top of my wants alongside the class 22. Based on personal memory and my desired layout spec - she will grace my rails alongside hydraulics.

 

It reminds me of when this commissioning started, Howes and the Falcon project - a £10 deposit was required. I'm very interested in what they will use for sound - the MAN engined pullmans had an identical power unit (admittedly with electric transmission) to the NBL warships and class 22s, so does this open the door for sound projects for these often overlooked diesel dinosaurs?

 

Haven't parted with cash for a 76 yet, but will probably get one for display purposes - never recall a time when hydraulics were on the Woodhead route

[Pennine MC]

Really? It was enough of a gamble that Bachmann and Hornby didn't want to do it

 

Isnt that the point though - when they put a product to market on their own account, Bachmann or Hornby dont ask the end user for money up front. Hence they know that the BP is too much of a gamble for a normal production model

 

. I just happened to call up Olivias Trains yesterday and have a chat with the man there. I think they're wary about commiting in print to a final price at what is still a very early stage of development.

 

 

This whole thing does seem a little amateurish. Given how long they must have been working on this before the announcement the website really should have been ready on day 1.

 

 

I havent rushed in to comment on this thread but I have to agree with Gulliver's observation - the website should have been much more explicit from the start. As has been discussed endless times on this forum, the BP is a complex undertaking not just due to the nature of the prototype but because a lot of buyers dont really know what they're getting into either. Olivia's may indeed have a very good idea what's involved, I dont want to slate them on that score, but it isnt coming across like that

 

If they needed to gather more information before proceeding, they should have said as much and couched their site in appropriate terms, not asked for significant lumps of cash* without giving any clear indication of what was actually being produced or even a ball park figure of what the final cost might be. Contrast that with the Rails page on the LMS twins - admittedly a simpler project and again the price wasnt finalised, but as for everything else it was in a different league

 

As almost an aside, is a three car unit with only one type of centre car that much of an advance on the Triang model? (Obviously I'm not a BP adherent)

 

* The deposits being talked of arent unacceptable per se if they make it happen (though they're a lot more than Neil's tenner), but only IMHO when the specifics are much clearer

[coachmann]

The deposit has to be something the customer does not want to lose (£50 quid for instance). It's a statement of faith. They don't mind losing a tenner if they change their mind about having a model and that is no good to the anyone.

[Pennine MC]

. There was probably much much more 'work' went into a 4car-4CEP than a three car B-P and that went like hot cakes for £115, so in that light B-P also looks expensive.

 

Difficult to make a sensible comparison when we're apparently talking about a 3-car BP, but as we were reminded earlier by 34C, Bachmann's own estimate (if they were to do one) was in the region of £400. I assume that would have been for a full 6- or 8-car, but as the BP sets are effectively two 'half' trains, the R&D should be similar (-ish; all other things being equal, which they seldom are). Whether they'd sell in similar numbers is a more moot point.

[ebbwdent]

There was probably much much more 'work' went into a 4car-4CEP than a three car B-P and that went like hot cakes for £115, so in that light B-P also looks expensive.

 

How do you come by this statement? Is it based on any fact or just wild speculation?

[GaryHN]

Just a quick question,

The picture on Heljan Blue Pullman In Nanking Blue Livery page, Is that at Preston??

Gary

['CHARD]

Just a quick question,

The picture on Heljan Blue Pullman In Nanking Blue Livery page, Is that at Preston??

Gary

 

I would've thought that was Snow Hill to be honest.

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

I havent rushed in to comment on this thread but I have to agree with Gulliver's observation - the website should have been much more explicit from the start. As has been discussed endless times on this forum, the BP is a complex undertaking not just due to the nature of the prototype but because a lot of buyers dont really know what they're getting into either. Olivia's may indeed have a very good idea what's involved, I dont want to slate them on that score, but it isnt coming across like that

 

If they needed to gather more information before proceeding, they should have said as much and couched their site in appropriate terms, not asked for significant lumps of cash* without giving any clear indication of what was actually being produced or even a ball park figure of what the final cost might be. Contrast that with the Rails page on the LMS twins - admittedly a simpler project and again the price wasnt finalised, but as for everything else it was in a different league

 

As almost an aside, is a three car unit with only one type of centre car that much of an advance on the Triang model? (Obviously I'm not a BP adherent)

 

* The deposits being talked of arent unacceptable per se if they make it happen (though they're a lot more than Neil's tenner), but only IMHO when the specifics are much clearer

 

 

I'm only just back from hols so haven't ploughed through this thread but the above comments strike me as getting to the heart of things. it is clear from the 'Model Rail' piece that research is still incomplete and looking for ancient drawings and pics is never easy or cheap (and yes - I would class the BP as 'ancient' because once something isn't there research gets that much harder, however long ago it went).

 

The deposit aspect worries me a little - fair enough if it goes into a separate account on a fully refundable basis if the project doesn't come off but otherwise exactly what is it for? Is it to size the market, is it to ensure commitment to purchase, or is it to fund development? Look at what happens in the US where some smaller commissioners of models simply drop the idea if the upfront orders and deposits don't appear. I'm not suggesting that might happen here but what does seem to be needed is a bit of clarity about the deposit and what it is for.

 

The project is, I think, ineveitably going to be difficult and hard to please everyone because it involves a unit train - and not only that but one with variations in vehicle types. This might be where the deposit comes into play because, as Pennine has said, I do wonder if many buyers will realise quite what they might be getting into if they want to go the full distance. Perhaps we can see now why Hornby and Bachmann have steered clear of what is clearly a difficult research job and something of a marketing minefield - that is going to take an awful lot of professionalism to deal with.

 

For the sake of all those who have in the past expressed a desire for a BP I hope it does come off buyt it is going to be a major task and I suspect it might not happen quickly.

 

As far as the EM1/2 are concerned I shall for now bide my time - they are 'collectibles' as far as I'm concerned but as I've already said elsewhere there's some lovely scenery around Torside Crossing

[The Stationmaster]

Exactly how highly regarded were the Blue Pullman trains at the time, either the prototypes or the model...? Was it seen as a rich man's folly (like the Brabazon and Concorde), or was it the must have item on your trainset, like the APT was in the early 80's...?

 

 

I don't know about the model (never had one and never wanted one ) but the prototype was 'interesting' to say the least. Terrific visual impression in that smashing original livery and very contemporary in terms of internal decoration etc - clever updating of the Pullman image without any real change to the standard of service.

 

But it was let down by poor riding on most of the vehicles with the power cars offering the best ride on the entire train (and on the Western Pullman of course there were 2nd Class seats in there so that was where I always tried to book when using the train regularly up fromn Cardiff on Fridays in 1968). Incidentally the steak sandwiches were in a league of there own and I've never had better anywhere.

 

There were, I believe, some teething troubles apart from the ride and reliability became an issue as the trains aged. But the Achilles Heel was the engines - typical MAN oil throwers, so don't go into the engine room if you could avoid and very different from the impression given by the Drivers' 'ice cream salesmen' white coats. But they could certainly go when everything was on song and from my sole opportunity they could provide a good footplate ride.

[Pixie]

I'm now a bit suspicious: has anyone ever used this shop?!

 

Usual disclaimer applies but I've had a couple of orders from them - nice guys at the end of the phone, items were as described and they arrived very promptly.

 

I would think selling the unit as a 4 car with two Parlour Firsts would work better, being as the firsts were the only common coach across the regions

 

I'd rather see the whole lot in one set - firstly it would ensure all the vehicle numbers in the set are correct and secondly I've got a feeling that if each car was offered separatley then there would be different demand for each type. The Hornby HSTs are a good example of this - the TSOs fly out very quickly and the Buffets and TGSs are left lingering in bargain bins. It might be a different case for the Blue Pullmans as there is an equal number of vehicle types in each set, but I can still envisage a higher demand for the power cars for those who want something to put in the cabinet.

 

As almost an aside, is a three car unit with only one type of centre car that much of an advance on the Triang model? (Obviously I'm not a BP adherent)

 

In terms of model quality it'd (hopefully!) be an advance on the Triang model but as for modelling the entire train then the siutation would be no better. I'd be much happier if they offered all the vehicle types straight off for one type, although it's a lot easier for me to say that as a consumer than the person who has to find an extra wedge of cash to pay for the additional R&D.

 

As has been mentioned above, I think the whole project needs some more information behind it. If Olivia's had said they were producing a 6-car Midland set, with all vehicle types, in one bundle package for £XX then I'd be tempted to put my money down. As it stands I'm unsure of which version it is, if all the vehicles are going to be available and how much the whole package will cost me.

 

Pix

[Guest dilbert]

Now that the euphoria on recent announcements has calmed down...

 

An elastic cost, and an elastic delivery date , but give us some dosh now, isn't how other retailers do it.

 

I think that OTs may have underestimated the reaction more than anything else - the project is obviously at an early stage (in comparison to their other projects) - in hindsight you could say that this could have been better managed.

 

If Olivia's are serious , then get the cash underwritten, or placed in a secure, untouched account, until such time that there is a firm and promised delivery date from the manufacturer, instead of a psychic forecast.

In case you think I'm anti-BP , then that is not so. I'm more than happy to order multiple versions, but not to donate the cash to the banks as business creditors.

 

It strikes me that by asking for deposits (or a commitment if you wish), OTs is trying to reduce the cost by minimising servicing on interest payments of financial loans. It would appear that the deal with Heljan is one of periodic payments linked to development, rather than a lump sum upon project completion (that's my speculative take on the agreement).

 

I didn't have to make future payments in order to obtain a 4CEP etc- Bachmann stood the punt and made a top seller, with demand for the green one something akin to the High Street on Christmas eve. There was probably much much more 'work' went into a 4car-4CEP than a three car B-P and that went like hot cakes for £115, so in that light B-P also looks expensive.

 

Since when has Bachmann been a retailer ? And yet Bachmann have resisted going the Blue Pullman route... you pay your money and make your choice.

 

I have never used Olivia Trains, don't have any Heljan product or even have an interest in the BP that is being proposed. OTs' approach may be different - it doesn't mean that it is wrong...dilbert

[JohnR]

Exactly, dilbert. I don't think many posters in this thread realise how expensive this commision is going to be (or indeed ANY commision). Olivia's are taking a big gamble with this, and are asking for the customers who have been banging on about wanting this model to show their commitment. Yes, asking for a deposit up front is unusual, but then this model is unusual, the final cost isnt yet known, but then they are working with a named manufacturer, which should inspire some confidence.

 

Comparison's with Bachmann are unhelpful, as they are a) not a retailer, B) a much larger company with larger cash reserves and c) their commisions for teh NRm have been with a public sector body with the ability to call on reserves.

 

Heljan jave done limited editions for Hattons, so I think that shows that this is potentially a serious opportunity for a Blue Pullman to be made.