Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[marcusd666]

On 07/06/2022 at 22:59, Cheshire Lines. said:

And here is the video :

 

 

 

 

Just watched your video fantastic work any chance of making a kit that I can buy from you so I can upgrade my APT (14 car set) to the same standard.

 

Cheers

Marcus

[Mr_Tilt]

18 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

So you left the sinking ship and joined one already on the bottom 😁

 

At the time the RTC was the most advanced railway technology centre in the whole world, and still would be if Maggie Thatcher hadn't had a barn sale of the country's best bits. ☹️

[boxbrownie]

16 minutes ago, Mr_Tilt said:

 

At the time the RTC was the most advanced railway technology centre in the whole world, and still would be if Maggie Thatcher hadn't had a barn sale of the country's best bits. ☹️

It most likely was, such a shame it went down the pan with all our other forward thinking engineering/design establishments, virtually everything that was worth it’s being was sold to bolster failing government coffers.

 

And that’s as political (all sides are guilty) as it gets, we’ll stop there or get banned 😉

[Cheshire Lines.]

10 hours ago, marcusd666 said:

 

Just watched your video fantastic work any chance of making a kit that I can buy from you so I can upgrade my APT (14 car set) to the same standard.

 

Cheers

Marcus

Thanks Marcus - I've just sent you a DM to help sort out a kit for you. Chris

[JSpencer]

On 07/06/2022 at 23:59, Cheshire Lines. said:

And here is the video :

 

 

 

 

Super. It really changes the whole train. Seriously tempted with passengers too.

[scedwar]

I’ve just got my 7 car set and 4 extra coaches thanks to a birthday. However, I’ve got some odd issues.
 

I only have a simple 8x5 loop with 3rd radius curves.  The NDM is a bit noisy and slows down on the curves (3rd radius) if I run it in either direction (I.e. change my polarity on my DC current). The front and rear headlights also are flickering and inconsistent, often do not come on until at high speed and even then will flicker, whereas the interior lights are mostly steady (although they flickered when I first ran).  
 

The really odd thing is that if I uncouple the NDM and turn it 180 degrees and then run it on either polarity, all is fine. The NDM runs smoothly and the lights come on when the APT starts at low speed and stay steady.
The headlights also stay on fine over the same track without the NDM on the track (power on and train rolling freely over the same track). 
 

As I’m running a simple loop, all I can think of is that something about the NDM going around left vs right hand curves causes electrical problems? 
 

Other than that, for my first Hornby model in 35 years, it looks nice, the couplings seem weird and require a lot of force to uncouple, capacitors on show (WTF!!!? - they could have at least covered them black) and the pantograph is flimsy and cheap. Other than that, it runs smoothly over my very flat layout with streamline points. But disappointing for the money - always wanted it as a kid in the 1980s and old enough now to be able to afford it, but still expensive for what it is. 

[JSpencer]

47 minutes ago, scedwar said:

I’ve just got my 7 car set and 4 extra coaches thanks to a birthday. However, I’ve got some odd issues.
 

I only have a simple 8x5 loop with 3rd radius curves.  The NDM is a bit noisy and slows down on the curves (3rd radius) if I run it in either direction (I.e. change my polarity on my DC current). The front and rear headlights also are flickering and inconsistent, often do not come on until at high speed and even then will flicker, whereas the interior lights are mostly steady (although they flickered when I first ran).  
 

The really odd thing is that if I uncouple the NDM and turn it 180 degrees and then run it on either polarity, all is fine. The NDM runs smoothly and the lights come on when the APT starts at low speed and stay steady.
The headlights also stay on fine over the same track without the NDM on the track (power on and train rolling freely over the same track). 
 

As I’m running a simple loop, all I can think of is that something about the NDM going around left vs right hand curves causes electrical problems? 
 

Other than that, for my first Hornby model in 35 years, it looks nice, the couplings seem weird and require a lot of force to uncouple, capacitors on show (WTF!!!? - they could have at least covered them black) and the pantograph is flimsy and cheap. Other than that, it runs smoothly over my very flat layout with streamline points. But disappointing for the money - always wanted it as a kid in the 1980s and old enough now to be able to afford it, but still expensive for what it is. 

 

Could be pick up issues (they get rather dirty and squeeky quite quick) but equally could be the capacitor in the NDM is about to go pop.

IF the coach lights suddenly die out and the train stalls, turn the controller off right away and do not start again until the NDM capacitor is removed.

 

(or you could replace it by taking the NDM apart now as explained in much earlier within the thread, I and others have done posts about that).

 

With the capacitor replaced, the headlights flicker less and stay full on at a slightly lower speed than before (until the pickups get squeeky) but I've never found mine to be perfect unless I was running a full 15 car set.

 

[WestRail642fan]

Does Hornby sell spares for the powered NDMs yet? I still want to power the dummy NDM you get with the 7 car set and i want to know if it'll be cheaper buying the spare parts myself and building it or just getting the single powered NDM and swapping shells

[Bloodnok]

15 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

Does Hornby sell spares for the powered NDMs yet? I still want to power the dummy NDM you get with the 7 car set and i want to know if it'll be cheaper buying the spare parts myself and building it or just getting the single powered NDM and swapping shells

Also interested in this. I'm unsure whether I should be concentrating on fixing the one powered NDM so it has sufficient traction not to just spin it's wheels when presented with a gradient, or  whether to power to the second NDM.

I have a 10 car set and it can't climb to save it's life -- whereas a train the same length made from Bachmann Mk2Fs (also lit) hauled by an 86, 87 or 90 will walk up the same gradient without issue.

[WestRail642fan]

50 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

Also interested in this. I'm unsure whether I should be concentrating on fixing the one powered NDM so it has sufficient traction not to just spin it's wheels when presented with a gradient, or  whether to power to the second NDM.

I have a 10 car set and it can't climb to save it's life -- whereas a train the same length made from Bachmann Mk2Fs (also lit) hauled by an 86, 87 or 90 will walk up the same gradient without issue.

in my case, i plan on splitting my full 14 car set in half and running it as the proposed APT-Q sets using the new tooled MK4 DVT in place of the DAV4, hence the need to power the second NDM

[WestRail642fan]

So, has anyone here found a way to hide the visible capacitors from the trailers and is it wise to outright remove them?

[Hilux5972]

4 minutes ago, WestRail642fan said:

So, has anyone here found a way to hide the visible capacitors from the trailers and is it wise to outright remove them?

If you can solder I don’t see why they couldn’t be replaced with less obtrusive ones. 

[WestRail642fan]

3 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

If you can solder I don’t see why they couldn’t be replaced with less obtrusive ones. 

a plan i have is using some 2.54 mm micro connectors to link up all 6 coaches to the DTS and relay on the DTS and the TBF's capacitors since they're hidden

Edited June 22, 2022 by WestRail642fan

[newbryford]

7 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

So, has anyone here found a way to hide the visible capacitors from the trailers and is it wise to outright remove them?

 

I think further upthread, there's a post that mentions hiding them under the seats/lower body

[Roddy Angus]

9 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

So, has anyone here found a way to hide the visible capacitors from the trailers and is it wise to outright remove them?

This may be already covered above but, if you are reasonably competent with a soldering iron, it is a fairly simple job to remove the existing capacitors, and reattach them with a sufficient length of wire to allow the capacitor to be placed next to the weights under the seating.  The only thing to watch out for is be careful when removing the capacitor from the PCB as if you are not careful you can lift the copper track as well.  If that happens, scape the coating of the remaining copper track and solder to that.  Sorry, although I have done this to mine, I have no photos.

 

Best wishes

 

Roddy

 

 

[Bloodnok]

On 22/06/2022 at 01:43, WestRail642fan said:

a plan i have is using some 2.54 mm micro connectors to link up all 6 coaches to the DTS and relay on the DTS and the TBF's capacitors since they're hidden

That's not a bad idea.

Through-wiring the lights each half of the train would also mean the DTS decoder could control them, too.

Does that then make the pickups redundant? I seem to recall someone saying pickup drag was a significant factor in the performance issues with this train.

In my case I need pickups on most axles for train detection anyway, but this might help other people.

[Torbay Express]

 Sorry guys a late runner with inrespect to the APT.......

 

These issues with the capacitor - is it purely when used on DCC or can it affect units working on DC too?

 

Likewise is it just the NDM one which is of concern for burning out?  Is it actually required in a coach with no lighting and can it just be disguarded?  If people move the capacitors in the coaches, is that likely to cause excessive heat in the coach flooring.

 

It's a great statement the APT was to celebrate Hornbys Anniversary, yet after all these years cannot make a train that works properly!

 

If there is a problem relating to the capacitor and burning out, then shouldn't Hornby be offering replacement components in a £477/£586 train?  The hospital sick bowl inner packaging is also a nice touch,to enhance the products perceived quality.

 

 

 

 

[JSpencer]

4 minutes ago, Torbay Express said:

 Sorry guys a late runner with inrespect to the APT.......

 

These issues with the capacitor - is it purely when used on DCC or can it affect units working on DC too?

 

Likewise is it just the NDM one which is of concern for burning out?  Is it actually required in a coach with no lighting and can it just be disguarded?  If people move the capacitors in the coaches, is that likely to cause excessive heat in the coach flooring.

 

It's a great statement the APT was to celebrate Hornbys Anniversary, yet after all these years cannot make a train that works properly!

 

If there is a problem relating to the capacitor and burning out, then shouldn't Hornby be offering replacement components in a £477/£586 train?  The hospital sick bowl inner packaging is also a nice touch,to enhance the products perceived quality.

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing wrong electrically with the big capacitors in the coaches. There is no risk of them going pop. Of course visually is another story...

 

Those in NDMs can go pop on DC or DCC. If the train starts to flicker or appears to be stalling, then stop the train right away.

I  replaced mine after one went pop, and this can be found earlier in thread.

 

[Torbay Express]

On 08/06/2022 at 10:41, boxbrownie said:

If they told me how much I’d tell them if I was willing to pay the extra.

 

I’ve just paid £350 for a set of six very detailed suburban coaches, pretty sure I am going to be very happy with them.

Well it costs £477 or £586 to get a botch job......that makes a decent job expensive to buy!  

 

On the positive side, if Hornby omit it, it's something less that they can make a mess of.......

[Torbay Express]

On 07/06/2022 at 17:39, RyanN91 said:

Alot of problems with the APT that we are now addressing? Other than the capacitors used I can't think of or see anything major really that comes under "Alot of problems" I wonder what they are? 

Kerching!!!!  Think of the even higher revised retail price......

[Torbay Express]

21 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Nothing wrong electrically with the big capacitors in the coaches. There is no risk of them going pop. Of course visually is another story...

 

Those in NDMs can go pop on DC or DCC. If the train starts to flicker or appears to be stalling, then stop the train right away.

I  replaced mine after one went pop, and this can be found earlier in thread.

 

Thanks, so its basically a poor quality capacitor.  So ultimately prevention by replacing is better than running the risk of it going pop.  Will have to have a look earlier in the thread for changing it.  Any idea on roughly when you posted it on the thread?

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Torbay Express said:

Well it costs £477 or £586 to get a botch job......that makes a decent job expensive to buy!  

 

On the positive side, if Hornby omit it, it's something less that they can make a mess of.......

Hornby may well do that then, if they would be making an extra maybe £100 pure profit on a set 😆

[JSpencer]

6 hours ago, Torbay Express said:

Thanks, so its basically a poor quality capacitor.  So ultimately prevention by replacing is better than running the risk of it going pop.  Will have to have a look earlier in the thread for changing it.  Any idea on roughly when you posted it on the thread?

 

From memory, some time in April, if not March. There were photos with the post (although the RW web had a sort of crash that lost them just after, no idea if restored since).

 

I found some of the pics here:

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by JSpencer

[WestRail642fan]

18 hours ago, Bloodnok said:

That's not a bad idea.

Through-wiring the lights each half of the train would also mean the DTS decoder could control them, too.

Does that then make the pickups redundant? I seem to recall someone saying pickup drag was a significant factor in the performance issues with this train.

In my case I need pickups on most axles for train detection anyway, but this might help other people.

i'll most likely leave all the pickups still wired in for back up sake

[Cheshire Lines.]

On 22/06/2022 at 01:36, WestRail642fan said:

So, has anyone here found a way to hide the visible capacitors from the trailers and is it wise to outright remove them?

There are 2 ways to do this - both require de-soldering the capacitor and adding wires between the cap and the pcb. You can then either hide the cap in the vestibule at the end of the coach or hide it in the well under the seating which is what I did - you can see what it looks like in my detailing video which I posted above.