Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[zoomer1979]

On 01/03/2023 at 13:24, RedgateModels said:

Just a heads up, I'm picking up my first samples of a few pan adaptors for APT-P's. Mostly they are for the 80's version, but I have also produced one that allows a cheapie ebay pan from China to be fitted to the current version of the APT.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203786926505

 

Whilst not very accurate to a Faively pan, they are very robust. here's a pic of the first off mount - I've tried to copy the Hornby lower frame and should fit onto the black supports as the stock one does.

 

 

I'll post pics up once I have one fitted to a pan next week.

That's an amazing coincidence, just so happens I bought a double pack them about 6 months ago. Looking forward to seeing how it looks, as anything would be better than the plastic spindle trash!

Neil.

[RedgateModels]

8 minutes ago, zoomer1979 said:

That's an amazing coincidence, just so happens I bought a double pack them about 6 months ago. Looking forward to seeing how it looks, as anything would be better than the plastic spindle trash!

Neil.

I’ll get the prototypes at this weekend’s Mansfield Show. Pics will be posted as soon as I can. I’ve not got a 2020’s power car to fit to, but do have the black supports 😁
 

I do have 2 versions to fit the 2020’s Pan to the 80’s power car too 

Edited March 2, 2023 by RedgateModels

[Torbay Express]

On 28/11/2022 at 11:37, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I am sure Hornby's response would be that running a 10 coach train on such a layout is unusual.

I can understand a normal loco being heavier though. The clearance for the tilting parts causes the chassis to be smaller than for a non-tilting loco with a larger tumblehome.

Why produce the extra coaches though springs to mind?  Or did they produce them for no one to buy? 

 

My current reason for looking at this thread is intermittent lights in one one of the intermediate coaches - 48603.  If anyone has any ideas? 

[Bloodnok]

10 minutes ago, Torbay Express said:

Why produce the extra coaches though springs to mind?  Or did they produce them for no one to buy?

 

They genuinely seemed to be under the impression that people would build long trains with the yellow fronted set. The fact world+dog wanted the black fronted set as the base for longer trains seemed to surprise them.

 

I guess they were looking at their own product history, and not what the real railway did...

 

Personally, if I had have been specifying the liveries, I'd have done a 5 car yellow front pack aimed primarily at the nostalgia market (think reproduction 1980s artwork and box style), a 5 car black fronted set as the 'main feature', and the 7 car set would have had the red line across the nose as is appropriate for the 'research' set.

 

10 minutes ago, Torbay Express said:

My current reason for looking at this thread is intermittent lights in one one of the intermediate coaches - 48603.  If anyone has any ideas? 

This will be poor contact somewhere -- either pickups to wheels or wheels to track. Check the wipers are contacting the wheels properly, and that the tilt mechanism is working properly, and not picking one side of the axles up off the track at any point.

[GordonC]

17 hours ago, Bloodnok said:

 

They genuinely seemed to be under the impression that people would build long trains with the yellow fronted set. The fact world+dog wanted the black fronted set as the base for longer trains seemed to surprise them.

 

I guess they were looking at their own product history, and not what the real railway did...

 

Personally, if I had have been specifying the liveries, I'd have done a 5 car yellow front pack aimed primarily at the nostalgia market (think reproduction 1980s artwork and box style), a 5 car black fronted set as the 'main feature', and the 7 car set would have had the red line across the nose as is appropriate for the 'research' set.

 

This will be poor contact somewhere -- either pickups to wheels or wheels to track. Check the wipers are contacting the wheels properly, and that the tilt mechanism is working properly, and not picking one side of the axles up off the track at any point.

 

I'm not really sure what they were thinking with production quantities and I would have thought there would be a pretty hefty majority that wanted a black fronted set with perhaps limited interest for yellow fronted. But I cant really complain too much either having picked up a yellow fronted set at about half the normal price in a clearance sale.

 

With quite so many yellow fronted APT sets and intermediate coaches left on shop shelves I'm not sure what their plan will be for producing more sets this year. The coaches are probably unusual with the shared bogies that mean they cant really be used with any other rolling stock so to sell whats left with shops there probably needs to be far more black fronted sets made available. Hornby seem to have R30229 another 7 car black fronted set and R30104 another yellow fronted 5 car set both on pre-order available in the summer while they still have the previous yellow fronted 5 car R3873 in stock. Crazy if they think they're going to get people paying £477 for those 5 car sets!!

 

I think there could be a market for a driving car with the nose up to couple to a diesel as the prototype often did and I really think they should produce a conversion kit to motorise the second power car in the 7 car set.

[stovepipe]

Hornby have made some strange choices over this model, and punters in general seem to want matching numbers throughout, even though this never happened in practice, featuring DTS that were barely used in anger.

 

The first black fronted set R3874 included 370001, which was barely seen in service after 1981, and which did not get a black front until later. Likewise the next black fronted set R30104 features DTS 370003 & 370004, when 370004 never was seen out on the mainline in test or public service and almost certainly didn't get a black front. Hornby would have been perhaps better off making use of 370002/3/5/6/7.

 

As far as I can ascertain, the yellow fronted sets rarely worked in more than an 8-car formation, and never as a 14-car formation. The forthcoming set R30229 set does at least represent the two DTS in use at the time the livery was current - August 1978 to May 1980.

[RedgateModels]

On 02/03/2023 at 23:03, RedgateModels said:

I’ll get the prototypes at this weekend’s Mansfield Show. Pics will be posted as soon as I can. I’ve not got a 2020’s power car to fit to, but do have the black supports 😁
 

I do have 2 versions to fit the 2020’s Pan to the 80’s power car too 

 

So here's the first off print (sort of) fitted to the chinese pan

 

 

Main issue is that it does not sit down all the way on the base, so I've now moved the whole mounting hole 2mm further back. The pips on the end of the supports that go into the insulators on the black frames were lost too due to confusion of what they were in the cleaning process. I've made them longer and the supports will be adjusted to line up with them on the next go.

 

Not bad for a first go though 

[25kV]

On 06/03/2023 at 13:43, stovepipe said:

The first black fronted set R3874 included 370001, which was barely seen in service after 1981, and which did not get a black front until later. Likewise the next black fronted set R30104 features DTS 370003 & 370004, when 370004 never was seen out on the mainline in test or public service and almost certainly didn't get a black front. Hornby would have been perhaps better off making use of 370002/3/5/6/7.

 

As far as I can ascertain, the yellow fronted sets rarely worked in more than an 8-car formation, and never as a 14-car formation. The forthcoming set R30229 set does at least represent the two DTS in use at the time the livery was current - August 1978 to May 1980.

There is a tiny bit of evidence that 370004 received a black front - but none that it ever ran in traffic with it before being stripped for parts at Derby, so Hornby may be barking up the wrong tree there (there are some mis-captioned photos out and about which purport to be 370004 with a black mask, but it's possible to identify the actual unit through other means).  I've only so far seen one instance of a yellow-fronted half-set running in service with all its trailer cars, and that was 370005 paired with 370001 on the ill-fated special that derailed near Carnforth.

The most logical choice for another black-fronted set would be 370005/370006 which were the first to run with the masks, and in a full 12+2 formation.  370006 was also the unit used to launch the public service in December 1981 (paired with 2-car 370002).  Another option would be 370007 which was ironically always a full length unit, and handled all the later public public services in 1984/1985.

(Of course, none of these sets had correctly-numbered trailer cars!)

Link in signature for details of known formations and livery variations.

[Torbay Express]

On 06/03/2023 at 13:43, stovepipe said:

Hornby have made some strange choices over this model, and punters in general seem to want matching numbers throughout, even though this never happened in practice, featuring DTS that were barely used in anger.

 

The first black fronted set R3874 included 370001, which was barely seen in service after 1981, and which did not get a black front until later. Likewise the next black fronted set R30104 features DTS 370003 & 370004, when 370004 never was seen out on the mainline in test or public service and almost certainly didn't get a black front. Hornby would have been perhaps better off making use of 370002/3/5/6/7.

 

As far as I can ascertain, the yellow fronted sets rarely worked in more than an 8-car formation, and never as a 14-car formation. The forthcoming set R30229 set does at least represent the two DTS in use at the time the livery was current - August 1978 to May 1980.

I think that perhaps from a Collectors perspective, they probably think do it properly, but like with many things of this size, some will want the lot others won't.  I remember slamming Hornby when they weren't going to do a FGW 1st Class Mk3, so hats off in some respects.   But I think with it being iconic, quite a lot of people have gone down the full set route. I have been quite surprised how many on YouTube etc..  

 

I personally am more surprised that they are bothering with another run at all, because the need for a modern APT in the main has pretty much been met. 

 

My 5 car purchased from a well known retailer for £300!  (All sold out now though, unless Hornby dump anymore?) 

[zoomer1979]

I quite liked the idea of having the potential to have a full rake, even if inaccurate. To see what could of been. Also getting a full train meant flexibility to model any combination, as now armed with exact formations and numbers, I can model the specific set that made it closest to where I live (a special run in the Glasgow area).

Neil.

[GordonC]

2 hours ago, Torbay Express said:

I think that perhaps from a Collectors perspective, they probably think do it properly, but like with many things of this size, some will want the lot others won't.  I remember slamming Hornby when they weren't going to do a FGW 1st Class Mk3, so hats off in some respects.   But I think with it being iconic, quite a lot of people have gone down the full set route. I have been quite surprised how many on YouTube etc..  

 

I personally am more surprised that they are bothering with another run at all, because the need for a modern APT in the main has pretty much been met. 

 

My 5 car purchased from a well known retailer for £300!  (All sold out now though, unless Hornby dump anymore?) 

 

even for collectors though, when you get an item thats 14 feet long, thats quite a different proposition to a single loco.

 

I'm sure there's demand left for black fronted ones when they all disappeared fairly quickly, but I wouldn't have thought so for yellow ones

[Bloodnok]

4 hours ago, Torbay Express said:

I think with it being iconic, quite a lot of people have gone down the full set route.

Also worth remembering Hornby strongly encouraged that by packaging the coaches in pairs. If you wanted a realistic half-length set (2+2+6, a not uncommon formation IRL) you needed one coach from all four coach packs.

[willjmitchell]

What are the chances of Hornby fixing some or all of the production/quality control problems in the latest production run? I have just pre-ordered a full rake with the black ends costing [gulp] more than a grand and I am hoping for no massive, visible capacitors and perhaps a slightly more detailed interior. Am I being too optimistic?

[Phil Parker]

10 minutes ago, willjmitchell said:

I am hoping for no massive, visible capacitors and perhaps a slightly more detailed interior. Am I being too optimistic?

 

I'd be surprised if they re-tooled the interior, but I seem to recall that the capacitor was partly down to the availability of components at the time, so you might be lucky there. I interviewed the designer, and they "oil drum" wasn't what they wanted either.

 

[guarded]

I read somewhere about Crew figures for the cabin.That would be nice.

 

[sandwich station]

What's the difference between  the first run of 5 car sets R3873 and the latest run R30104 due in a few months?

[JSpencer]

18 hours ago, Bloodnok said:

Also worth remembering Hornby strongly encouraged that by packaging the coaches in pairs. If you wanted a realistic half-length set (2+2+6, a not uncommon formation IRL) you needed one coach from all four coach packs.

 

I always thought this was a big error from Hornby. They might have been better off just doing packs of 4 cars for one end.

The current prices and inflation mean that where as most would probably not have hesitated getting all 14 cars before are probably bothering getting any - until hopefully someone splits the pairs or they are offered differently.

 

The other thing is, I don't think any of the real world sets ran exactly with their theoretical coach numbers for the actual set. Set 1 could have a mix between it and set 2, 3 and 4. This (was) all online (the links I have are broken now).

[RedgateModels]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

The other thing is, I don't think any of the real world sets ran exactly with their theoretical coach numbers for the actual set. Set 1 could have a mix between it and set 2, 3 and 4. This (was) all online (the links I have are broken now).

 

On 07/03/2023 at 20:32, 25kV said:

Link in signature for details of known formations and livery variations.

 

[muddy water]

On 07/03/2023 at 20:32, 25kV said:

There is a tiny bit of evidence that 370004 received a black front - but none that it ever ran in traffic with it before being stripped for parts at Derby, so Hornby may be barking up the wrong tree there (there are some mis-captioned photos out and about which purport to be 370004 with a black mask, but it's possible to identify the actual unit through other means).  I've only so far seen one instance of a yellow-fronted half-set running in service with all its trailer cars, and that was 370005 paired with 370001 on the ill-fated special that derailed near Carnforth.

The most logical choice for another black-fronted set would be 370005/370006 which were the first to run with the masks, and in a full 12+2 formation.  370006 was also the unit used to launch the public service in December 1981 (paired with 2-car 370002).  Another option would be 370007 which was ironically always a full length unit, and handled all the later public public services in 1984/1985.

(Of course, none of these sets had correctly-numbered trailer cars!)

Link in signature for details of known formations and livery variations.

Just been reading your web page on the class 370. 
Fabulous!!!!!

You have done really well to get all that information together in one place. 
Now I do not have to buy or make a 14 car set as they were not that common.

But I do have to now make ADB975630  Test Service Car 8 and a 20T brake van to represent one of the sets being drag by a blue diesel between the depots!!

[GordonC]

13 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I'd be surprised if they re-tooled the interior, but I seem to recall that the capacitor was partly down to the availability of components at the time, so you might be lucky there. I interviewed the designer, and they "oil drum" wasn't what they wanted either.

 

 

They didn't exactly do anything to fix it before releasing or resolve it afterwards either though just adding to the "that'll do for D+E" impression you get of Hornby. I wouldn't have minded so much if they'd provided a set of components and instructions to solder in, but when you're spending £500 for the set and £100 for each coach pack it stings to have such an obvious and very visible fault.

[GordonC]

21 hours ago, Bloodnok said:

Also worth remembering Hornby strongly encouraged that by packaging the coaches in pairs. If you wanted a realistic half-length set (2+2+6, a not uncommon formation IRL) you needed one coach from all four coach packs.

 

I'm quite sure there would be some kind of market for the 'other' coaches if you bought 2 coach packs, took a coach out of each to keep and sold the other pair you'd probably get similar money back for them because there will probably be quite a few people might want a half-set rather than a full one.

[Bloodnok]

6 minutes ago, GordonC said:

I'm quite sure there would be some kind of market for the 'other' coaches if you bought 2 coach packs, took a coach out of each to keep and sold the other pair you'd probably get similar money back for them because there will probably be quite a few people might want a half-set rather than a full one.

 

That's how I bought mine. £50 a coach. Unboxed -- the guy had bought a load, split them, was selling the coaches at £50 each, and the box for £20 separately...

 

Of course, by the time I'd got around to motorising the NDM so it could run, I'd seen the coach packs at £50 each on deep discount at some retailers, so I felt like a complete idiot for getting them that way. Never mind.

[GordonC]

3 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

 

That's how I bought mine. £50 a coach. Unboxed -- the guy had bought a load, split them, was selling the coaches at £50 each, and the box for £20 separately...

 

Of course, by the time I'd got around to motorising the NDM so it could run, I'd seen the coach packs at £50 each on deep discount at some retailers, so I felt like a complete idiot for getting them that way. Never mind.

 

pretty rubbish box for £20 but can see his logic!

 

you can never tell how production quantities match up with demand when these things are released. I paid full price for a full set then picked up a yellow fronted set and a couple of coach packs from the bargain bin 😖

[Phil Parker]

18 minutes ago, GordonC said:

They didn't exactly do anything to fix it before releasing or resolve it afterwards either though just adding to the "that'll do for D+E" impression you get of Hornby. I wouldn't have minded so much if they'd provided a set of components and instructions to solder in,

 

We live in a world where "modellers" can't put pre-made handrails into pre-drilled holes. Asking them to attack their APT with a soldering iron would be a recepie for disaster, or at least a vast number of warranty claims.

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

We live in a world where "modellers" can't put pre-made handrails into pre-drilled holes. Asking them to attack their APT with a soldering iron would be a recepie for disaster, or at least a vast number of warranty claims.

 

True, it would have to be at your own risk, but its pretty shocking to just sell them in the state they are and wipe their hands of it. Is that going to encourage repeat custom?