Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[PaulRhB]

50 minutes ago, lee74clarke said:

Edited - I've probably found the answer myself (should look first, shouldn't I ?!) Looks like R30105 or R3948 may be spare motorized power cars?

Yes although to be strictly accurate you had to swap the body from the dummy to the powered one in the first release doing the 7 car set. 

[andyman7]

28 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Yes although to be strictly accurate you had to swap the body from the dummy to the powered one in the first release doing the 7 car set. 

Although of course if you're going to be strictly accurate you aren't going to run them as 14 coach formations which over the life of the APT programme was a rare occurrence with many of the 7 'half-sets' never ever actually running in their full formation.  

[Mr_Tilt]

They did run as a 14 car set at least once, so that's enough to make it 'accurate'. 

[25kV]

005 and 006 were almost certainly the first 14-car formation in operation (with power cars 49004 and 49002); 006 and 007 also operated together as a 14 car set.  Some tentative evidence suggests 005 and 007 may have also been paired up full length. 

 

[Of the other trailer rakes, 001, 003 and 004 never ran as full-length rakes; 002 was extended to full length (from its original 3-car formation), but so far there's no evidence to show it running in that condition before being re-shortened to two cars.]

 

Subtle plug for that page that lists actual formations (as far as can be ascertained...)

http://www.25kv.uk/APT.php

 

😉

 

 

[MoonM]

Splashed out on a 14 car 2020 tooling a couple of years back. The first two deliveries were returned due to quality issues but the third one I was happy with. 

 

However, aside from testing on my son's oval of track (with 3rd radius), I haven't run the set. Still renovating my house so the 'grown up' layout still on hold. 

 

I decided to splash out on the 2023 release as an upgrade. Overall the appearance of the models look similar. The addition of a driver and closer couplings are welcome but not a huge difference. The capacitor change is a great improvement though. Not only can I not see them but the coach lighting was still on when I was reboxing the models after using. 

 

I also splashed out on a second driving NDM. Whilst the new NDM may theoretically be slightly more powerful than old, the new 14 car rake does struggle on the 3rd radius oval of track I tested it on (I could not perceive an improvement). There is wheelslip and slowing on the curves. Adding the second NDM resolves this. So, I still think 2 driven NDMs are required for running 14 cars with the new set unless your layout is very gentle on curves or gradient. I also think using two should give extra life to the motors so hopefully will last for longer. 

 

Hope helpful, now I just need to get the old set up onto ebay... 

[RedgateModels]

I’m looking to upgrade my 2020 set with Hornby magnetic couplings if they become available as spares, plus the upgraded lighting, although if I can get the details of the differences I can do them myself …..

[HExpressD]

11 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

I’m looking to upgrade my 2020 set with Hornby magnetic couplings if they become available as spares, plus the upgraded lighting, although if I can get the details of the differences I can do them myself …..

Available from the spares guys, X7938

[RedgateModels]

49 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

Available from the spares guys, X7938

 

Indeed, I know that part number, it's just no one is selling them as of yet as far as I can see. If anyone knows of a seller with them I'd be very greatful

[WestRail642fan]

what are the odds currently of Hornby making 370 005 and 370 006 (with the matching coaching numbers) in the future.

 

Also, how much does it cost to motorize the dummy NDM in the 7 car pack via buying spares from Hornby vs just buying the spare powered NDM on its own and swapping shells?

[MoonM]

7 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

what are the odds currently of Hornby making 370 005 and 370 006 (with the matching coaching numbers) in the future.

 

Also, how much does it cost to motorize the dummy NDM in the 7 car pack via buying spares from Hornby vs just buying the spare powered NDM on its own and swapping shells?

My guess is maybe not for a few years as Hornby have saturated the market with the current and re-release in short order. Could be completely wrong as just a guess and Hornby have surprised me many times before

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, MoonM said:

My guess is maybe not for a few years as Hornby have saturated the market with the current and re-release in short order. Could be completely wrong as just a guess and Hornby have surprised me many times before

 

As much as I absolutely love APT's I think you're probably right. The quantity of coaches left over from the first batch and available at up to 50% off would suggest that the market for those wasn't as strong as they expected - perhaps more people just bought a train pack and left it at that, but the coaches aren't really any use for anything else. To then add another production run of everything so soon is surprising.

 

[GordonC]

9 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

what are the odds currently of Hornby making 370 005 and 370 006 (with the matching coaching numbers) in the future.

 

Also, how much does it cost to motorize the dummy NDM in the 7 car pack via buying spares from Hornby vs just buying the spare powered NDM on its own and swapping shells?

 

I'd think pretty unlikely. Bear in mind the prototype rarely ran with a matching set of coaches that you can probably get away with renumbering driving ends

[E100]

I could see a single 5 coach train pack perhaps with black window surrounds and 370001 / 370006 with the red additions on the nose for 2024 or heck 370005 wouldn't surprise me either based on form to date...

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

I'd think pretty unlikely. Bear in mind the prototype rarely ran with a matching set of coaches that you can probably get away with renumbering driving ends

 

When I checked, I don't think I ever saw any set running with correct matching coaches. (except small sets). So Hornby is selling them on the theoretical make up.

 

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

As much as I absolutely love APT's I think you're probably right. The quantity of coaches left over from the first batch and available at up to 50% off would suggest that the market for those wasn't as strong as they expected - perhaps more people just bought a train pack and left it at that, but the coaches aren't really any use for anything else. To then add another production run of everything so soon is surprising.

 

 

My thoughts are that they should have sold the intermediate cars as 4 car packs rather than as twin packs using the same coach from different sets. 

Selling as twin car coaches from different sets makes doing the common 10 car rake impossible to do without buying all 14 vehicles. You are just left with some short lived trial sets (at best).

 

After all buyers will mostly either:

1/ Just buy the train pack and leave it at that (which is a big train for most small layouts anyway)

2/ Want the main train pack plus one set of 4 coaches to do a typical 10 car rake (already an impressive train but easily manageable by one powered NDM)

3/ Want the fall train needing 2 powered NDMs

 

I doubt the groups would be even. Maybe a bias for 10 car trains  1st, followed by train pack only followed by remainder wanting 14 cars.

 

The alternative is selling each coach individually but this is messy and there are a lot for shops to consider to order, stock and sell...

 

 

 

 

 

[WolfofBadenoch]

I bought a full 14 car set  (plus development coach) 18 months ago. I will probably run it as a 9 or 10 car set but with the initial NDM it struggled to run up a short 1 in 50 (4cm rise) on 900mm radius curves. On my longer gradient it slips to a halt on a tricky reverse curve. Again gradient is 1 in 50. Initial sound before train appears is NDM slipping and again it can be heard after the APT has stopped but the engine still running.

 

 

 

I bought a new NDM this week (less than 24 hour delivery from Model Rail Direct). It weighs 90g more (metal block inside is about 7mm thicker). New on left, original on right.

 

 

 

It now runs a 14 car set up my long gradient without slipping. Why couldn't Honrby have done such basic testing?

 

 

[E100]

I’m sure this has been said before but the thing that is frustrating is that, as sold, the 2020 version was barely fit for purpose with lack of traction, among many many other things, but we dare not return it as well we wanted an up to date APT. It does leave a bad taste to see these issues so easily fixed as they shouldn’t have happened in the first place of course.
 

If this were Accurascale/Rapido whilst I doubt it would have happened in the first place their customer service to date would suggest that original customers of the 2020 version would be advised to send their NDM in for a replacement weight / it sent out free of charge… …frankly I’m sure many of us would settle for a kit / copious spares being made available.

[Mr_Tilt]

Having the customer do your development work is a well worn technique, often used in the motor industry and usually driven by the bean counters, who just don't understand engineering in any way, shape or form.

 

Don't ask me how I know this................. 😒

[RedgateModels]

16 minutes ago, Mr_Tilt said:

Having the customer do your development work is a well worn technique, often used in the motor industry and usually driven by the bean counters, who just don't understand engineering in any way, shape or form.

 

Don't ask me how I know this................. 😒

 

He's not bitter 😉

 

Hornby have a long poor relationship with the bean counters. Look at the Ringfield motors. Instead of holding their hands up and paying a licence to Fleischmann for their design we got the plastic fantastic (Not) version, then to pour further misery on they substituted the brass armature gear for aluminium, that always fails, but outside of the warranty period, so that's a win for them I guess .......

 

Which reminds me, I have a Duchess of Sutherland with a missing gear that I got off eBay cheap to fix

[RedgateModels]

9 hours ago, WolfofBadenoch said:

 

 

I bought a new NDM this week (less than 24 hour delivery from Model Rail Direct). It weighs 90g more (metal block inside is about 7mm thicker). New on left, original on right.

 

 

 

Useful information for us with series 1 versions, I'm sure a few wheel weights attached to the chassis will do the trick 😉

[Bloodnok]

On 22/08/2023 at 11:15, JSpencer said:

My thoughts are that they should have sold the intermediate cars as 4 car packs rather than as twin packs using the same coach from different sets. 

 

This.

 

On 22/08/2023 at 11:15, JSpencer said:

Selling as twin car coaches from different sets makes doing the common 10 car rake impossible to do without buying all 14 vehicles. You are just left with some short lived trial sets (at best).

 

If you wanted black fronts, it was 15 vehicles as the 7 car set contains the research vehicle you didn't need. And if you bought the complete NDM it was 16 as now you had a spare dummy NDM too.

 

Personally I'd have specified:

* 5 car yellow fronted "nostalgia" focused set (premium price, 1980 style boxart)
* 5 car black fronted "main range" focused set (standard offering most people are expected to buy)
* 7 car research department (red line) special edition set with the converted TS research car.

* Additional powered NDM (one variant, but provide the "other" pantograph style in the box to swap over)

* Four-pack of intermediate cars, with one of each car type in each set, liveried to work with the black fronted set.

Yeah, that means numbers of coaches would have been the same in the front and back half of a full rake. If more were needed, then a new batch with new numbers could be done. I don't think this would be a problem.
How many people are actually bothered by their full rake of identically numbered Bachmann Mk2Fs, but aren't game to renumber them? And more to the point, who didn't buy Bachmann Mk2Fs because there weren't enough numbers made available?

Anyone?

Didn't think so ;)

 

On 22/08/2023 at 11:15, JSpencer said:

2/ Want the main train pack plus one set of 4 coaches to do a typical 10 car rake (already an impressive train but easily manageable by one powered NDM)

 

I disagree. My 10 car set would NOT make it around my layout with just the one powered NDM. It wasn't marginal either. A 3rd radius curve on a 2.5% climb was clearly too much for it.

 

[E100]

51 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

* 5 car yellow fronted "nostalgia" focused set (premium price, 1980 style boxart)
* 5 car black fronted "main range" focused set (standard offering most people are expected to buy)
* 7 car research department (red line) special edition set with the converted TS research car.

* Additional powered NDM (one variant, but provide the "other" pantograph style in the box to swap over)

* Four-pack of intermediate cars, with one of each car type in each set, liveried to work with the black fronted set.

 

When can you start working for them?

[letterspider]

Does anyone know if Hornby are supplying the upgraded coach lighting strips as spares?

[GordonC]

12 minutes ago, letterspider said:

Does anyone know if Hornby are supplying the upgraded coach lighting strips as spares?

 

Knowing Hornby they wont so that they can sell more updated coaches rather than just a lighting strip

[letterspider]

Disappointing on many levels. Okay so they had to make a compromise and put in a large capacitor, however the lighting doesn't stay alive for very long (for the size of it I would expect 4 or 5 seconds)

[Ducking Giraffe]

On 25/08/2023 at 08:07, RedgateModels said:

 

 

 

Which reminds me, I have a Duchess of Sutherland with a missing gear that I got off eBay cheap to fix

 

Oh dear, I do hope its not this one that I've just sold for 16 quid missing smoke deflector, no tender no motor....