Tyteford Halte

[longchap]

I like the tag and slot mode of chassis assembly HL use, as it takes away so much hit and miss out of the process, so it seems we have a plan.

 

Seriously though, I must finish the Metro tank and get the branch line boards operating before starting another project, oh and complete the Clifton Downs set driving car, although I'll get that order in soon enough though.

 

 

[MAP66]

Quite addictive this chassis building, once you have taken the plunge. I will probably hit the buffers soon and come to an abrupt stop when it starts to get complicated. Until then I’m taking advantage of the initial easier steps and you re-join me at a critical moment joining the frame sides together.

First step was to remove all the frame spacers from the fret (parts 4 to 8) see below image.

 

Top row from left to right - (4) front spacer (5) motion bracket  (6)  Midway spacer P4W  

Bottom row  (7) Outside frame spacer P4W  (8) rear spacer P4W

 

The kit allows you to build a chassis to 00, EM or P4 gauges. Thankfully, and very thoughtfully you have the plan drawing of the actual fret, the parts list and with me building to P4 standards, P4W is also actually stamped into 3 of the frame spacers, more on that later. So little chance of installing the wrong spacer. Even so, I still wrote the numbers in black marker on each part.

 

Part 4 is the front spacer and it requires bending along the fold lines and the hole opening up to accept a 1mm steel rod (included in kit) I used a broach to open up the hole, before fitting between the frame sides. Thankfully, these parts have location tabs to ensure it’s all lined up to the corresponding slots within the frame sides. It was then just a case of soldering in place.

 

I then hit a problem, as I next soldered in place part 8 (the rear spacer) which somehow made the chassis go slightly askew at the rear end. There was nothing for it but to de-solder the spacer, file away all the excess solder and give it another go. However, before re-soldering, I slotted in part 6 (the mid-way frame spacer which held the rear end square and this seemed to help when soldering in place the rear spacer again. After overcoming that small dilemma, the rest of the frame spacers went in nicely.

 

It’s worth noting again that this is a P4 build and the spacers marked P4W (parts 6,7 & 8) place the outer side frames 1mm further apart allowing 0.5mm clearance at each side of the rear wheels. Anyway, here's how it's looking after all that, you will also see that I have also now attached the 4 cosmetic axle springs to the side frames.

 

 

 

In the process of soldering one of the axle springs, while being clamped in place.

 

Next stage - Assembling the etched rear wheel carriers. 🙂

 

 

[stevel]

Enjoying watching this build, as I just received the HL pannier chassis kit, to go under a Saddle tank body I'm going to print. Going with the continuous spring beams, rather than the compensation method for the first time.

[MAP66]

8 hours ago, stevel said:

Enjoying watching this build, as I just received the HL pannier chassis kit, to go under a Saddle tank body I'm going to print. Going with the continuous spring beams, rather than the compensation method for the first time.

Glad your enjoying the build 🙂 Sounds like an Interesting project you have there, I would love to be able to create and print off parts but my tiny brain would never be able to understand the software for creating the files 🤪

Maybe you could post your progress on here, it would be good to see how you tackle the compensation. Its all new to me, but looking at the instructions there are beams involved in this build as well, so could be good to compare notes when getting to that stage. In the meantime, I'm sure you will enjoy the quality of the HL kit and good luck with the build.

[MAP66]

Assembling the rear wheel carriers consists of 3 components for each set (parts 14, 15 & 16). Each part requires the slightly undersized hole to be opened out to accept a 2mm brass axle bush (included in the kit). My broaches don’t go up to that size, so instead I used a rat tail file. I removed a little material at a time and checked with the bush each time. It’s a bit fiddly and I found that holding the bush as illustrated below with fine nosed tweezers avoided the risk of it being lost to the carpet.

 

The tweezers hold the axle bush by tension, making it quick and easy to check for fit, without risk of  losing such a small part to the carpet.

 

The completed rear axle carrier at top (a little cleaning up required) with the individual components and brass bush shown below

 

Once satisfied that holes were correct, I folded the tab on the front etch as per the instructions and then inserted the middle and rear etches over the tab. After which I checked alignment to ensure the brass axle bush could be inserted through the front and centre etch with it just entering the rear etch about ¾ of the way but not passing all the way through. I then clamped it all together and ran a tiny bit of solder along the bottom edge to hold the 3 laminations together and then ran some solder around the shoulder of the bush to seal it in place. A final check was then undertaken test to see if the carrier still slid in within the cut away in the side frame and thankfully it did. Image of the assemblies below…

 

Front and back view.

 

Side on showing location slot.

 

 

Having grown a little bit more confident with that success, I thought I would give the 4 hornblock assemblies a go. They are made up with an etched carrier which is folded up as per the clear instructions provided and then you slide in the lovely engineered brass axle bush.  The etched carriers are so designed that when folded together, no soldering is required. A small tab nib holds everything securely in place.

 

The instructions suggest holding the carrier along the fold line of the horn cheeks with thin nosed pliers. I struggled with this as the carrier was still becoming distorted due to the force required to make the bend. I found it easier to use my sheet metal bending tool which kept the carrier etch flat while I used the edge of a steel rule to force over the bend, this worked a treat, see image below…

 

Everything clamped flat and more control using this method.

 

The completed hornblock assemblies but some further fettling still required to obtain a good  sliding fit for the axle bushes?  see question 2 below.

 

I have also seen elsewhere that it's a good idea to make identification easier for each hornblock assembly while fettling and when final  fitting to the main frames. So  I have marked mine with small blobs of different coloured paint to avoid getting them mixed up.

I now have some novice questions and would be most grateful if anyone out there can help;

1. The 1/8" diameter axle which came with the Alan Gibson wheels (separate to kit) is a very tight fit in the bush and I don't want to force it. Is it standard procedure to use a 1/8" reamer or similar to run through the bush to get the correct axle fit? I assume it needs to be a tightish fit but with no friction so as to allow axle to rotate freely, would that be correct? Also, should any lubricant be used, if so what type/brand of oil?
2. For the hornblock assemblies, what am I aiming for in terms of the fit of the brass axle bush within the carrier. Currently they all slide in but are quite tight, should it be that they could drop out if held vertically or does there need to be a small amount of resistance holding them in place?

Thanks and advanced apologies if question 1 comes across a bit smutty (Oh Matron), didn't know how else to phrase it, any innuendo's keep them to yourself please 😇

Mark

 

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

A trick I've been taught for small components that can easily ping their way to oblivion is to thread a length of cotton through the centre hole - if they do then ping, they can't get far.

 

Once the relevant operation has deen performed, the thread just pulls out.

 

In my case it was specifically for HO scale Kadee coupler springs, and I must admit it works - as long as I don't lose the spring when threading it!

 

Don't know if it would work for items like the bush you describe, but can't see why not.  Hope it helps, Keith.

[MAP66]

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

A trick I've been taught for small components that can easily ping their way to oblivion is to thread a length of cotton through the centre hole - if they do then ping, they can't get far.

 

Once the relevant operation has deen performed, the thread just pulls out.

 

In my case it was specifically for HO scale Kadee coupler springs, and I must admit it works - as long as I don't lose the spring when threading it!

 

Don't know if it would work for items like the bush you describe, but can't see why not.  Hope it helps, Keith.

That's a good tip Keith which I will keep in mind for the next fiddly so and so. Thanks for sharing.

[Neal Ball]

11 hours ago, MAP66 said:

Assembling the rear wheel carriers consists of 3 components for each set (parts 14, 15 & 16). Each part requires the slightly undersized hole to be opened out to accept a 2mm brass axle bush (included in the kit). My broaches don’t go up to that size, so instead I used a rat tail file. I removed a little material at a time and checked with the bush each time. It’s a bit fiddly and I found that holding the bush as illustrated below with fine nosed tweezers avoided the risk of it being lost to the carpet.

 

The tweezers hold the axle bush by tension, making it quick and easy to check for fit, without risk of  losing such a small part to the carpet.

 

The completed rear axle carrier at top (a little cleaning up required) with the individual components and brass bush shown below

 

Once satisfied that holes were correct, I folded the tab on the front etch as per the instructions and then inserted the middle and rear etches over the tab. After which I checked alignment to ensure the brass axle bush could be inserted through the front and centre etch with it just entering the rear etch about ¾ of the way but not passing all the way through. I then clamped it all together and ran a tiny bit of solder along the bottom edge to hold the 3 laminations together and then ran some solder around the shoulder of the bush to seal it in place. A final check was then undertaken test to see if the carrier still slid in within the cut away in the side frame and thankfully it did. Image of the assemblies below…

 

Front and back view.

 

Side on showing location slot.

 

 

Having grown a little bit more confident with that success, I thought I would give the 4 hornblock assemblies a go. They are made up with an etched carrier which is folded up as per the clear instructions provided and then you slide in the lovely engineered brass axle bush.  The etched carriers are so designed that when folded together, no soldering is required. A small tab nib holds everything securely in place.

 

The instructions suggest holding the carrier along the fold line of the horn cheeks with thin nosed pliers. I struggled with this as the carrier was still becoming distorted due to the force required to make the bend. I found it easier to use my sheet metal bending tool which kept the carrier etch flat while I used the edge of a steel rule to force over the bend, this worked a treat, see image below…

 

Everything clamped flat and more control using this method.

 

The completed hornblock assemblies but some further fettling still required to obtain a good  sliding fit for the axle bushes?  see question 2 below.

 

I have also seen elsewhere that it's a good idea to make identification easier for each hornblock assembly while fettling and when final  fitting to the main frames. So  I have marked mine with small blobs of different coloured paint to avoid getting them mixed up.

I now have some novice questions and would be most grateful if anyone out there can help;

1. The 1/8" diameter axle which came with the Alan Gibson wheels (separate to kit) is a very tight fit in the bush and I don't want to force it. Is it standard procedure to use a 1/8" reamer or similar to run through the bush to get the correct axle fit? I assume it needs to be a tightish fit but with no friction so as to allow axle to rotate freely, would that be correct? Also, should any lubricant be used, if so what type/brand of oil?
2. For the hornblock assemblies, what am I aiming for in terms of the fit of the brass axle bush within the carrier. Currently they all slide in but are quite tight, should it be that they could drop out if held vertically or does there need to be a small amount of resistance holding them in place?

Thanks and advanced apologies if question 1 comes across a bit smutty (Oh Matron), didn't know how else to phrase it, any innuendo's keep them to yourself please 😇

Mark

 

 

 

1. you will need to run the broach through the bush to give a reasonable fit. If there is any resistance, the wheels won’t run smoothly. (When assembling and putting the loco on the track and lifting the track, the wheels will bind at one point or another)

2. Ive not built horn blocks, but would imagine it’s a similar process. 
 

Hope that helps.

[MAP66]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

1. you will need to run the broach through the bush to give a reasonable fit. If there is any resistance, the wheels won’t run smoothly. (When assembling and putting the loco on the track and lifting the track, the wheels will bind at one point or another)

2. Ive not built horn blocks, but would imagine it’s a similar process. 
 

Hope that helps.

Thanks Neal, that's most helpful ☺️

[MAP66]

Thanks to @Neal Ball I was a little more confident in testing the axle fit within the brass bushes. Some careful use of a 1/8” reaming tool resulted in a nice fit. I returned to the hornblock assemblies and found that with some careful tweaking of the horn cheeks to make them slightly more than 90˚ to the perpendicular resulted in curing the tight fit. The brass axle bushes all now slide up and down within their respective carriers.

 

There was just a bit more of prep work required, for the 2 hornblocks supporting the driven (middle axle). You are advised to file off the collar of the brass bush to allow clearance the gearbox to fit. For the hornblocks supporting the front axle you need to file down the carriers as shown on the instructions to allow fitting up against the front spacer. Both these tasks were carefully completed and finally as advised in the instructions a tiny amount of model oil was applied to the brass bushes to avoid them being soldered in place.

 

Now it was starting to get interesting as the next job was to solder the hornblocks into the frame!

You start with the driven (middle axle) and I spent some time devising a practical way to clamp the hornblock into its correct position before tacking in place along the top edge. This is what I came up with…

 

Top of hornblock assembly clamped tight to side frame on top edge ready for tacking

 

View from other side.

 

 

It was then a case of clamping again while soldering along the 2 sides. Then hold your breath while you gingerly poke the axle bush to see if you have accidently soldered it stuck. Phew! No, I haven’t, it still slides nicely. Recompose yourself and repeat the procedure for the opposite side.

 

Before that though, I thought about how everything was going to square up or not as the case might be. As I had the Poppies chassis jig, I decided to give it a go as I wanted to know if the opposite hornblock would line up OK. Due to the chassis side frames having an outward projecting frame spacer I was not able to use the jigs centre reference hole to line up the driving axle hornblocks. Instead I lined them up with the adjustable slots on the jig. That way, I was able to clamp the chassis side frame flat area to the side of the jig keeping it square and then locate the front axle through the jigs centre hole. Confused, hopefully the image below shows what I’m up to…

 

My unconventional method of setting up the hornblocks, this is still work in progress and still in the trial and error phase.

[longchap]

I’m impressed with the apparent ease in which your chassis is coming together Mark, particularly with using hornblocks, which I have yet to master, at least the HL fold up variety! Good to see you made good use of Poppy’s chassis box as well.

 

As you’re building in P4 gauge, will you be installing the full internal motion?

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by longchap

[MAP66]

21 minutes ago, longchap said:

I’m impressed with the apparent ease in which your chassis is coming together Mark, particularly with using hornblocks, which I have yet master, at least the HL fold up variety! Good to see you made good use of Poppy’s chassis box as well.

 

As you’re building in P4 gauge, will you be installing the full internal motion?

 

Thanks Bill,

I think the not rushing approach is paying off, plus the chassis gods must be looking favourably upon me. If I can get the chassis set up true then I will be more than happy. I think the Poppies chassis box has its use, you just have to  think 'outside of the box' 🤔

Yes, this is a P4 build and I'm going to attempt full motion. Its going to be fiddly and time consuming but It should look pretty amazing if I can manage to cram it all in, at least I'll have a bit more space between the frames than the OO modellers.

 

[Neal Ball]

Morning Mark,

Im intrigued about those sprung clips - they look as if they are making life easier for you. Where did you get them from?

 

As Bill says above it’s good you are using the Poppys jig, I’m glad it’s working for you. 
 

Did the kit not come with screw in frame spacers? I found using them made the Metro build a bit easier.

 

Keep going, I am enjoying your build. Thank you.

[JimRead]

Hello Mark,

 

Amzing thread you've got going here, fair play to you. I really like the coach and it's people amazing paint jobs you've done there.

 

I hope you don't mind me showing this.

 

I expect your kit had already got HB gaps that are correct. I used card and I'd cut the slots 1/2mm wider and then line them up with these rods and a biro spring. Then glue them in with some araldite and a pin.

 

If you would like a smile please take a look at this, spilling the beans about a cheapo chinese 6 pole motor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfRjo-NQcZw

 

Cheers - Jim

[longchap]

53 minutes ago, JimRead said:

Hello Mark,

 

Amzing thread you've got going here, fair play to you. I really like the coach and it's people amazing paint jobs you've done there.

 

I hope you don't mind me showing this.

 

I expect your kit had already got HB gaps that are correct. I used card and I'd cut the slots 1/2mm wider and then line them up with these rods and a biro spring. Then glue them in with some araldite and a pin.

 

If you would like a smile please take a look at this, spilling the beans about a cheapo chinese 6 pole motor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfRjo-NQcZw

 

Cheers - Jim

 

Good solid old school model engineering principles well demonstrated Jim. Iain Rice would be proud of you and his 4mm Loco Chassis Construction book is still in print and remains the best guide for aspiring loco builders. I like his no nonsense practical approach.

 

Lovely video too with well handled tankers 😀

 

Bill

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by longchap

[MAP66]

8 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Morning Mark,

Im intrigued about those sprung clips - they look as if they are making life easier for you. Where did you get them from?

 

As Bill says above it’s good you are using the Poppys jig, I’m glad it’s working for you. 
 

Did the kit not come with screw in frame spacers? I found using them made the Metro build a bit easier.

 

Keep going, I am enjoying your build. Thank you.

Hi Neal,

 

I checked back to where I got those clips from https://uk.robotshop.com/  but unfortunately it looks like they're no longer part of their product range. I had a quick internet search and there are similar products available such as these  https://www.retroamplis.com/Spring-loaded-clip-on-aluminum-heat-sinks

 

I think have a look around for a UK stockist if possible, I think I paid around £6 for a pair 3 years ago. They are actually designed to be heat sinks clips but I find that they are ideal for clamping parts together for soldering purposes. Definitely recommend them for hornblock work.

 

The Poppy chassis box came with 3 witness axles/rods and six blue plastic grips which push onto the rods and are meant to hold them in place. However, they are not very good and I have mislaid them anyway. I will need to think of another solution to prevent the rods from moving, probably more clips of some sort.

[MAP66]

5 hours ago, JimRead said:

Hello Mark,

 

Amzing thread you've got going here, fair play to you. I really like the coach and it's people amazing paint jobs you've done there.

 

I hope you don't mind me showing this.

 

I expect your kit had already got HB gaps that are correct. I used card and I'd cut the slots 1/2mm wider and then line them up with these rods and a biro spring. Then glue them in with some araldite and a pin.

 

If you would like a smile please take a look at this, spilling the beans about a cheapo chinese 6 pole motor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfRjo-NQcZw

 

Cheers - Jim

Hello Jim,

 

Good to hear from you, I'm glad you like the coach detailing. I might drop back on that soon and mix it up a bit between the chassis build and finishing off the coach.

 

I do like your ingenious solutions using everyday items to solve these types of problems. What your able to achieve with card is a bit special and I have no problem with you showing how you go about it on here ☺️ I might even try a card built chassis one day. The biro spring has got me thinking and a rummage through the pen drawer is required.

 

Love the video, made me feel hungry for some reason 🤣

[MAP66]

We continue on and I managed to eventually get all the horn block assemblies into the chassis. 3 went perfectly and the last one, its always the last one, didn’t want to play ball. When it did eventually solder in place it wasn’t quite square. The axle runs through it perfectly well though, the only issue is the bush starts to stick towards the bottom of its travel but I don’t think it will ever be required to go that low within the guide so, hopefully it won’t cause any issues.

 

The instructions tell you to assemble the coupling rods next, there are 2 laminates for each side and this was another job which I wasn’t sure how to tackle. I eventually decided, rightly or wrongly, to tin the inside faces of each laminate and then attempt to fuse them together by running the soldering iron over the outside face. In conclusion, it probably wasn’t the best method of choice, they don’t look to pretty after my efforts and will require some time cleaning them up. I would be interested to hear how others tackle this.

 

Next on the list is to start on the inside motion and this will be challenging as there are a lot of fiddly components to manoeuvre into position with brass rods and wires passing through a number of ccomponents to represent valve gear, pistons, guide rods etc. All in all, a lot going on in a tiny space, what fun!!!

Below, we see the challenge ahead, fig 4 illustrates the components which are to be squeezed in. I have aligned my chassis up to that of fig 4 in the instructions for reference.  You may also notice from the last chassis image that the rear outside frames have now been fitted...

 

 

Apologies for the dodgy soldering on view, I'm hoping that the standard will improve considerably as the build continues. I thought it might be of interest to show the set up I use, so here it is...

 

I use an Antex variable temperature soldering station which has a 24V 50W soldering Iron. I have the temperature set to 350C for this build as I like to hear the flux crackle when the tip of the iron comes into contact. Solder is 179 degree but I have some 145 solder for the lost wax castings. I use various types of liquid flux.

[longchap]

I'm a believer in getting in with loads of heat from the biggest bit practical, then get out quickly. 

 

This often means less burnt fingers and quickly made joints, as the workpiece heats up rapidly. I experimented with the temperature and finally settled on 450deg for etched chassis work.

 

Good job, as  usual Mark.

 

 

 

[MAP66]

11 minutes ago, longchap said:

I'm a believer in getting in with loads of heat from the biggest bit practical, then get out quickly. 

 

This often means less burnt fingers and quickly made joints, as the workpiece heats up rapidly. I experimented with the temperature and finally settled on 450deg for etched chassis work.

 

Good job, as  usual Mark.

 

 

 

Thanks for the soldering tip Bill, looks like I will be turning the temp up a notch and see how I get on with that 🧯 

[Neal Ball]

Your question @MAP66 about the connecting rods…. That’s exactly how I did mine!

 

The build is looking good so far. That inside valve gear will look nice…. Can you assemble outside the frames, then pain it before assembling?

[longchap]

I concur with Neal regarding the rods. Just be gentle when filing down the edges to get the soldered joint looking like a solid steel rod, as they are still fragile and need support from a suitable vice.

 

[MAP66]

54 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Your question @MAP66 about the connecting rods…. That’s exactly how I did mine!

 

The build is looking good so far. That inside valve gear will look nice…. Can you assemble outside the frames, then pain it before assembling?

Yes, I was wondering about the painting side of things. I will definitely see what can be assembled (if anything) outside of the frames and then get it painted up. A good clean with detergent and a rinse is required first within the bay area, then an etch primer. Followed by some research on colours to use for an authentic look.

 

Re. the coupling rods, glad I wasn't using a unique technique by tinning the inside faces, going by @longchap input, I think my issue was the soldering temp was too low. I plan to have another go at 450c as I need to feed a little more solder along the edges to lose the laminate cusp edge and then file back.

[MAP66]

59 minutes ago, longchap said:

I concur with Neal regarding the rods. Just be gentle when filing down the edges to get the soldered joint looking like a solid steel rod, as they are still fragile and need support from a suitable vice.

 

Noted Bill, will do and thanks again.

[MAP66]

Persevering with the Poppies chassis box (jig) I found a solution to stop the witness rods from dropping out. I have used collar retainers which tighten onto the witness rods with a grub screw. I couldn’t get a close internal bore size of 3.125mm to suit the witness rods, 4mm was the closest I could find but the grub screws wind down enough to grip the rods and now they don’t fall out and everything is held tight and square...

 

All nice and secure now with the collars fitted. Good to see that the coupling rods fit as well!

 

Now it was time to continue with the inside motion, from the above image you can see that I have made a start by already installing the slidebars which basically just slide and push into place with a little levering and manoeuvring with no need for soldering (once you manage to get them in, there not going anywhere). Next on the list to tick off, are the left and right valve gear assemblies. They each consist of an inside and outside drop link and one radius arm. Managed that, just about, a couple of images below…

 

Assembly is assisted by inserting short lengths of 0.5mm brass rod until the soldering iron is called for.

 

Both pairs now soldered together and the brass rods snipped off just proud of the etch to represent the pivots.

 

We end this instalment with a final image of the valve gear assemblies installed within the frames and you will see two short pieces of brass tube cut to 4.5mm long inserted through the motion bracket to represent the valve guides…

 

The lower 1.0mm brass rod passing between the frames is the reverser shaft and will soon be cut back in length. The upper 0.7mm brass rod is just there for support of the valve gear assemblies and is taken out when all is soldered in place.