HS2

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

We have new cycle paths being built locally, and the paper is full of protest letters showing mug alongside the path as thought it's the end of the world. Ignoring the fact that the mud will soon be grass, but then facts don't matter.

 

This is the thing. What the Bucks objectors dislike is the disruption during construction. The more the project is delayed, the longer that disruption will continue. 

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This is the thing. What the Bucks objectors dislike is the disruption during construction. The more the project is delayed, the longer that disruption will continue. 

 

That makes them sound reasonable compared to our local mob. They just hate anything new.

 

[tomparryharry]

I agree. The face-to-face meeting is all important. It sets you apart. You would be surprised how much business gets done over a cup of coffee. 

[adb968008]

56 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

An important point. There are loads of people online parroting the line "People don't need to travel for business, they can do it all by email and Zoom." as a reason not to build HS2. That's fine for them. They can sit at home in their room and never have another human interaction again. Me, I need to meet people. I get more done face-to-face. The conversations flow better and you get to cover side issues rather than just the topic of the meeting.

 

British Airways used to have a commerical comparing sales people who travelled, and ones who did it all by email. Physically turning up at a client's business says a lot more about how much you care about them. In the advert, the travellers got the contract. I think there is a lot of truth in this.

i can 100% speak to this.

 

A few years ago I was in a competitive situation for business with a South African bank. My competitors bid, was lead someone I personally knew from a previous role ( note power of connections).

 

When it came to the final decision, the customer had a last minute change, given on a friday afternoon, for decision on Tuesday.

 

I discussed with management, flew down to joburg sunday night (thats a story in itself), and met with the customer on monday, flew home monday night.

 

Tuesday afternoon, I found out we won. The customer directly said, it was because we flew down, we showed how important it was to “show face” to the customer… I knew my competing counterpart would never do that kind of an extreme trip… thing is, he knew that I would, but chose to do a web conference anyway.

 

Business travel will only pick up when the economy does, but its chicken and egg currently, accountants are trying to save by cutting travel, which is starving creation of new relationships… this is a battle i’m having every week currently… no one goes to conferences on zoom. Often when on prospect travel the ones listed on my original itiniery are not the ones i end up meeting, as you learn and react on the road.. you dont get that vibe on zoom either. You just get “meeting canceled”…

 

Zoom is good at technical post sale, and internal relationships but a very poor way to generate new business.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

All the predictions of the end of business travel look very dated.

 

As others have said there are a multitude of reasons why physical meetings still matter. You miss so much communication on video calls (body language, being able to monitor what's happening in the room, side chats) and in many cultures it is still important to demonstrate the value of a relationship (in many Asian societies you need to establish a relationship, then do business). There's a slightly more controversial reason why personal meetings are still important for some, a personal meeting allows people involved with policy type stuff to have the quiet discussions necessary to reach an agreement without being recorded on zoom and with who knows who watching, it's easy to criticise this but it's very difficult for people to make the sort of pragmatic concessions necessary to make progress if the world might be watching.

 

And of course, business is only one part of travel, leisure travel is important, visiting distant family members, going off to college and lots of other reasons.

 

I am travelling more than ever at the moment, admittedly there's an artificial bump catching up on things thanks to many Asian countries only recently having re-opened to travel.

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Zoom is good at technical post sale, and internal relationships but a very poor way to generate new business.

 

That in a nutshell.

[DY444]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

In a country as small as ours, far greater and quicker economic benefits per £m spent could be derived from widening electrification and upgrading most of the existing system for line-speeds of 100 or 125mph, rather than further investing in true "high speed". 

John

 

Ok I'll bite. 

 

Tell us how?  Tell us where? Tell us how much?  We need more north-south capacity not faster running which will reduce paths on an already over crowded network.

 

The WCML modernisation scheme cost north of £15bn at 2006 prices, provided only a dozen-ish fast line paths an hour, little capacity for extra freight and semi-fast passenger trains and left bottle necks across the West Midlands, between Rugby and Nuneaton, at Stafford and at Crewe.  HS2 fixes all of that and more than doubles the number of paths.  If you can do that for less then tell us how.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Atlas Road logistics tunnel, Old Oak Common.

 

6.2 metres (20' 4")  internal diameter.

853 metres (half a mile) long.

 

 

 

 

Information here......

 

https://www.hs2.org.uk/building-hs2/tunnels/atlas-road-logistics-tunnel/

 

https://assets.hs2.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Atlas-Road-Logistics-tunnel-FAQs_.pdf

 

https://assets.hs2.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/HS2-Atlas-Road-site-local-community-update-22-March-2022.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

You could design it to be 5mph powered by donkeys and there would be objections. People who don't want their view disturbed, don't care how fast the train goes. We have new cycle paths being built locally, and the paper is full of protest letters showing mug alongside the path as thought it's the end of the world. Ignoring the fact that the mud will soon be grass, but then facts don't matter.

The value of the land purchased was a huge contributory factor in HS2 project costs.  I'm pretty certain that the price paid for any of that land was entirely unaffected by the specified maximum speed of the trains which will eventually travel along it.

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

As others have said there are a multitude of reasons why physical meetings still matter. 

 

And of course, business is only one part of travel, leisure travel is important, visiting distant family members, going off to college and lots of other reasons.

To those mostly of the younger generation who insist face-to-face meetings don't matter for business, I would ask if they are OK with all music festivals (indeed, all live music) ceasing.  After all, you can just listen to a download (or a CD for the more old-fashioned like me).  Why would you need to actually be there to watch them play the music?

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

The value of the land purchased was a huge contributory factor in HS2 project costs.  I'm pretty certain that the price paid for any of that land was entirely unaffected by the specified maximum speed of the trains which will eventually travel along it.

 

Similarly the vast amount of money being spent on tunnelling, "green tunnels", landscaping, visual screening, planting new woodland and other environmental mitigations, all of which would have been required or considered desirable, would have applied to any new line, whatever the speed desired.

 

 

. 

[woodenhead]

Whilst we look on with despair about a traditional high speed railway dwindling away in to the future, over in Japan they are the future and they have Maglev...

 

[Siberian Snooper]

I travelled to London last Monday, I  used Chiltern as I started in Kidderminster and it's easier to change at Moor Street, the train was fairly full on Departure and was rammedin the front four coaches, when we arrived in the Smoke. I left Kidderminster at 11.01.

 

I wonder how rammed a BHM to EUS was on the same day at similar time.

 

 

 

[jjb1970]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Whilst we look on with despair about a traditional high speed railway dwindling away in to the future, over in Japan they are the future and they have Maglev...

 

 

Japan has been playing with maglev technology for decades and even back in the 1990's were talking about a new new Tokaido line to be built using very high speed maglev technology.

 

The technology seems mature, the issue seems to be getting the economics to stack up. Pudong airport has had a very high speed maglev link with downtown Shanghai for many years which is extremely impressive. That was built with Germany technology as Germany invested a lot of money in maglev high speed too but never really went anywhere with it at home, since then China has put a lot of money into maglev technology development and has some rather impressive trials.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Ok I'll bite. 

 

Tell us how?  Tell us where? Tell us how much?  We need more north-south capacity not faster running which will reduce paths on an already over crowded network.

 

The WCML modernisation scheme cost north of £15bn at 2006 prices, provided only a dozen-ish fast line paths an hour, little capacity for extra freight and semi-fast passenger trains and left bottle necks across the West Midlands, between Rugby and Nuneaton, at Stafford and at Crewe.  HS2 fixes all of that and more than doubles the number of paths.  If you can do that for less then tell us how.

And still there isn't sufficient capacity on the WCML to handle the maintenance possession requirements meaning that it will gradually face increases in Condition of Track etc speeds - reducing capacity even further.  We knew that back in 2000/2001 when I was involved in studying the traffic levels for an infrastructure whole life maintenance assessment.  Over the years every single forecast of future capacity utilisation on the WCML, despite some times being regarded as a pipe dream, has undershot what actually happened.  If the route were to be tested against the UIC capacity fiche at least one extra pair of running lines would be required from Willesden to Rugby, plus various flying junctions to eliminate flat junction conflicts, and for most f the way from Rugby to Stafford along with Coventry to Stetchford.

 

It doesn't have much to do woth either business travel or the growth of things like Zoom - fora start you can't go for a real day out on Zoom and you definitely can't use it to move 40 foot containers singly let alone by the dozen.   Business travel has, from what I have seen, probably changed a bit but recently when I took a morning train from Reading to Wolverhampton I was almost the only person not busy tapping away on a laptop - most of them got off at New St.  So business people still travel to Birmingham via Cross Country - is the WCML any different?

 

Judging by what can be seen locally business/work commuting levels are very much back at 2019 levels but noit every day of the week.  Crossrail might have made a difference but as it is a slower journey to London then GWR peak hour trains so I don't it's made much of an inroad.  Is the GWML different from the WCML - I doubt it.  But loadings inevitably vary from day-to-day - for example my son only usually travels to his London office on one day a week - however that actually moves him slightly further away from the folk he is talking to almost daily in the USA.

 

So passenger demand is there, and is also very strong for leisure travel, so the train service pattern has to serve the market.   That means regular pattern timetables on every weekday - the simplest way to keep passengers informed - but those trains all use line capacity.  Don't forget that in terms of paths the WCML (followed by the GWML) is the busiest freight route into London and most of those trains can't use another route except at an increase in operating and resource costs.

 

 

[tomparryharry]

There is no truth in the rumour, that Easyjet are looking to take a franchise on HS2.

 

Also, there is no truth in the rumour that they have not bought heavily insulated gloves, so the customers can stand on the roof.....

 

No, none whatsoever..... 

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

And still there isn't sufficient capacity on the WCML to handle the maintenance possession requirements meaning that it will gradually face increases in Condition of Track etc speeds - reducing capacity even further.  We knew that back in 2000/2001 when I was involved in studying the traffic levels for an infrastructure whole life maintenance assessment.  Over the years every single forecast of future capacity utilisation on the WCML, despite some times being regarded as a pipe dream, has undershot what actually happened.  If the route were to be tested against the UIC capacity fiche at least one extra pair of running lines would be required from Willesden to Rugby, 

 

 

That point seems to be getting closer.

Not having used the line for a month I wondered what to expect on my trip tp London last week.

The up train was only 7 minutes late, so a good start.

In the afternoon the down train was announced as delayed but with no set time as to when it would depart.

It was delayed arriving due to a points failure at Bourne End. Then there was no crew available.

It was packed with standing passengers almost filling the doorway areas by the time we tried to board. 

There ws an announcement that the train would be declassified.

I was with a person who does not have that great a command of the English language so I translated it saying that we could sit in the first class area.

By a stroke of luck this was the next section and several other people followed us so eventually we had a comfortable journey home. 

The main information screen at Euston seems to have given up completly.

I wonder what work they are going to do at the weekend.

Bernard

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

There is no truth in the rumour, that Easyjet are looking to take a franchise on HS2.

 

Also, there is no truth in the rumour that they have not bought heavily insulated gloves, so the customers can stand on the roof.....

 

No, none whatsoever..... 

If Ryanair ran HS2, it would almost certainly end at OOC, while Birmingham passengers would join/alight at Rugeley.

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[melmerby]

15 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Japan has been playing with maglev technology for decades and even back in the 1990's were talking about a new new Tokaido line to be built using very high speed maglev technology.

 

The technology seems mature, the issue seems to be getting the economics to stack up. Pudong airport has had a very high speed maglev link with downtown Shanghai for many years which is extremely impressive. That was built with Germany technology as Germany invested a lot of money in maglev high speed too but never really went anywhere with it at home, since then China has put a lot of money into maglev technology development and has some rather impressive trials.

Once again the UK was first, having invented the concept, then building a prototype that was intended to reach 300mph, 50 years ago. 🙂

It was scrapped because of costs and because there was no future seen in the concept.☹️

We did however get the much more sedate Maglev people mover at Birmingham Airport in 1984. (Now replaced by a CableLiner due to being life expired)

[APOLLO]

Maglev, invented in Manchester where Avanti have cut the service to London down to one per hour.

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/invented-in-manchester-1058453

 

Brit15

Edited April 4, 2023 by APOLLO

[phil-b259]

The downside of Maglevs is the inability to re-use existing railway infrastructure!

 

What makes high speed rail so attractive in Europe is precisely that ability to share existing infrastructure in city centres and also extend the benefits of high speed rail to places well beyond the limits of the new infrastructure.

 

*The UK is a big exception - but when you consider how most of the rest of Europe has a network which can readily accommodate double decked very long trains at their main city stations and compare that to the UKs small (both in height and length) train infrastructure then an exception can be made.

 

To be successful, a Mag-Lev line not only has to have space to build its own dedicated tracks, it also has to be able to count on enormous patronage for day one and cannot extend to smaller cities etc in the way rail can.

 

Thats why most Mag-Lev systems built thus far have tended to be short distance 'people movers' - shuttling between two places like an airport and a rail interchange where passenger flows are high. In transport terms they are not particularly useful compared to other modes (be it trains, planes or even cars) all of which can use decades (or centuries old if we are talking about roads) infrastructure to extend their reach

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by phil-b259

[lmsforever]

Today I visited a meet the public event locally,as it was mid afternoon it wasn't to busy so I could talk to the reps and get answers.The railhead at Quainton will receive 1800 trains over the next three years saving many tonnes of lorry loads.Rail has been used to deliver other construction materials a total of 655 trains loaded with 1.1 million tonnes of aggregate thats a heck of road journeys not happening .The Thame valley viaduct has been started with all of the arch bases construction well on the way the actual viaduct is to begin in the autumn but there are a couple of major projects  also starting.           Just outside  Aylesbury where the A413 is being diverted over the line this work will be completed by the end of the year and will be our way to  Thame and all around this new work will many trees so it will be a pleasant place.Also there will be a start made on the bypass around Aylesbury and connection to the bypass to the Wendover Rd. The new line on the Aylesbury to P Risboro is to be moved where HS2 cuts across it and this work has new track   laid and big earthworks have taken place and the new line should reopen early next year.Works at Wendover are progressing well with work on schedule so all in all we should see progress ,and I am now on the mailing list so updates will appear regularil;y.

[melmerby]

53 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Maglev, invented in Manchester

I remember seeing Prof Laithwaite demoing the concept on TV in the 1960s(?) pre colour.

It consisted of a lashup of electromagnets on a bench and a sheet of aluminium.

Power on - boy did it move, it shot across the lab like a rocket.