HS2

[jamie92208]

As mentioned above I think we are on thin ice and getting close to discussing politics and economics. Any chance of something about HS2.  Florence should break through any time soon and the Colne Valley viaduct must be over the Grand Union Canal by now.  I believe that a planned possession of the canal is either ongoing or about to start. 

 

Jamie

Edited February 9 by jamie92208

[billbedford]

2 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

As mentioned above I think we are on thin ice and getting g close to discussing politics and economics. Any chance of something about HS2. 

 

I don't think so, there doesn't seem much about HS2 to talk about that's new. 

[jamie92208]

Just now, billbedford said:

 

I don't think so, there doesn't seem much about HS2 to talk about that's new. 

But straying into politics got us locked down recently. 

 

Jamie

[monkeysarefun]

22 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

Given the context of this topic I was referring to the UK. Of course there are many toll roads in the rest of the world and as my compatriot says above Sydney seems to have (more than?) its fair share (you can add to the list M2 and NorthConnex, now the M11, which is my local example).

 

Nevertheless, despite the fact that the tolls make a lot of money for the operators and the State Government, when compared with the construction costs I still wonder how many of them are "profitable" - and are they intended to be? We don't expect other public infrastructure to be "profitable" - schools, hospitals, libraries, police/ambulance/fire stations, etc, - so why should railways (and roads) be different?

 

 

Yeah, I agreed with your original statement, "public" transport like buses and rail and ferries is expected to turn a profit, but road maintenance and upgrading is never questioned in the same way.

 

Did  Transurban (who operate the bulk if not all of our toll roads) build them? Or did the public pay for them only to have  the Government flog off the finished project to Transurban  to reap the profits  by having us pay for them all over again via tolls? These P and P projects are very confusing - probably deliberately so...

Edited February 9 by monkeysarefun

[62613]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

We won the war, it cost an empire and we lost the economic war.

 

The UK has been on a slide ever since.

 

The country has been feeding off empirical reputation and gradual global retreat since WW2 but that fat has largely burnt off.

Ask Argentina why they cancelled their HS rail project, the answer isnt that distant from ours.

 

 

 

 

 

You have to go back at least 30 years before the end of WW2 to find the start of the decline of the UK. 

[adb968008]

33 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

Nevertheless, despite the fact that the tolls make a lot of money for the operators and the State Government, when compared with the construction costs I still wonder how many of them are "profitable" - and are they intended to be? We don't expect other public infrastructure to be "profitable" - schools, hospitals, libraries, police/ambulance/fire stations, etc, - so why should railways (and roads) be different?

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/finance/rail-industry-finance/
 

Rail industry income. £22bn.

 

However theres some paper money here… The govt gives Network Rail £7bn, but counts £3.4bn as “other income” recieved from Network Rail.

so perhaps its really a £18.6bn railway ?

The UK has 31million tax payers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/income-tax-liabilities-statistics-tax-year-2020-to-2021-to-tax-year-2023-to-2024/bulletin-commentary#:~:text=5.1 Number of Income Tax,UK in 2020 to 2021.

(section 2.2)

 

So if the £18bn was divided by the 31mn, it works out £50 per month, and we could have a free to use railway network for everyone.. young and old.

 

That would decimate the car/road industry somewhat and push the green credentials up a notch.

£50 p/m (£600 per year) is a bargain, and a considerable saving to those currently using it.

 

 

Edited February 9 by adb968008

[mikejames]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

So if the £18bn was divided by the 31mn, it works out £50 per month, and we could have a free to use railway network for everyone.. young and old.

 

That would decimate the car/road industry somewhat and push the green credentials up a notch.

£50 p/m (£600 per year) is a bargain, and a considerable saving to those currently using it.

 

i dont think its that simple

transport is about places we want to go to and 'stuff' we need to carry

the railways dont go where I need to go

 

mike j

[adb968008]

2 minutes ago, mikejames said:

i dont think its that simple

transport is about places we want to go to and 'stuff' we need to carry

the railways dont go where I need to go

 

mike j

I totally agree,

 

my taxes are about public services and stuff we need

but my taxes dont seem to go where I need them to go either.

 

so how is it any different ?

 

 

Edited February 9 by adb968008

[C126]

19 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

£50 p/m (£600 per year) is a bargain… 

 

And to think the all-stations Annual Season ticket 30 years ago was nearly £20,000...

[jollysmart]

58 minutes ago, C126 said:

Having had chance now to skim my ref.

 

https://www.globalconstructionreview.com/why-saudi-arabias-the-line-is-not-a-revolution-in-urban-living/

 

... the article makes quite clear 'The Line' is certainly NOT "the forerunner test for all future cities".  For a start, it says they are quite inefficient for commuters and circular cities are better.  This design appears quite hopeless (and certainly not a '15-min. city').

 

 

 

It does make the assumption that commuting will be required and who knows if that will be the cases it will certainly be part of the design assuming 5 or 15 minutes everything will be in that range including employment, the exact same repeated for the length of the city not commuting miles. The main critique  appears to be that linear is not the answer but the circular, traditional,  city uses much more land which is the opposite of the aim of this project as it is planned to conserve energy and resources and cities on the coast tend to be radial from the coast not circular anyway. Who knows what will happen?

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

o if the £18bn was divided by the 31mn, it works out £50 per month, and we could have a free to use railway network for everyone.. young and old.

 

That would decimate the car/road industry somewhat and push the green credentials up a notch.

 

Maybe, but they'd have to remove all the seats from the trains to fit everybody in. 

Edited February 9 by billbedford

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, C126 said:

Having had chance now to skim my ref.

 

https://www.globalconstructionreview.com/why-saudi-arabias-the-line-is-not-a-revolution-in-urban-living/

 

... the article makes quite clear 'The Line' is certainly NOT "the forerunner test for all future cities".  For a start, it says they are quite inefficient for commuters and circular cities are better.  This design appears quite hopeless (and certainly not a '15-min. city').

 

 

 

The article is the same ones syndicated to several publications, derived from a report by a couple of researchers from Vienna, Rafael Prieto-Curiel and Daniel Kondor.

There are some terrible mistakes and errors in the article.

 

The Line is planned to be 170km (105 miles) long.

The article suggests that making it a circle would result in a radius of 3.3km, i.e. 6.6km from one side to the other, making the maximum distance between any two points far less than on a 170km line.

 

However, if a 170km line was turned into a circle, it would have a radius of  27km. i.e. 54km (33.5 miles) from one side to the other.

Kind of blows their argument out of the water.

 

They also state the proposed high speed rail line serving the length of the Line, would need 86 stations, hence preventing the HS trains reaching any sort of high speeds and slowing down connectivity.

However, a tiny bit of research would show that the HS rail proposal is for just 4 intermediate stations between termini.

These would be connected to a network of local transport systems.

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

[John Tomlinson]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 IMPORTANT - I’m not advocating any particular political viewpoint , I was merely trying to highlight there are no simple answers !

 

It’s just when you actually analyse the things in detail which would make a real difference from an environmental perspective they come dangerously close to certain ideologies and are in direct opposition to the economic strategies we currently use

 

 

 

I agree with this 100%. The planet would be in much better shape had China remained a Maoist, poverty stricken  shambles. Not only would there not have been a consumption boom in the west fuelled by low cost but decent quality products, but there would have been no investment boom there either, nor the consumption increases it spawned amongst some albeit not all. Someone once told me that the demand for wood both for use in buildings and as for example sheeting for setting concrete was a major driver in SE Asia's deforestation.

 

Not comfortable at all!!

 

John.

[APOLLO]

Too many people in the world and not enough resourses.

Everyboby wants the "Western" lifestyle - but the planet cannot support that.

If they can't get this lifestyle in their country they will march en mass to where they perceive they can (as probably you and I would).

The problems we face in the UK are nowadays seemingly universal, however,

 

The basics (UK)

 

Energy  We were self sufficient (coal, oil, gas) but no are longer. WE all (should) know the story.

Transport New ICE cars gone by 2030, EV's still many questions, HS2 fiasco, Our new trains are rubbish, Smart motorways an expensive and dangerous disaster. etc etc

Food  Far too much is imported - look at news re farmers in France, Germany etc.

Housing - A disaster area. No way my house is worth 4X what I paid for it in 1993 - but "the market" says it is.

Employment - Another looming disaster area, AI, etc etc Also the scene has changed, working from home etc etc (not neccesarilly a bad thing).

Climate Change links everything, and, wether you believe in it or not, to whatever degree, CC WILL change everything. 

Then we have the Politics, the15 minute cites, ownership (or not !!) of anything etc

War - Ukraine, Middle East and perhaps China, N Korea, Iran etc - The world certainly cannot afford this.

 

It need not be like this in the UK,

 

Energy. We are STILL energy rich with wind / second highest tidal range on the planet with several large and suitable estuaries (Bristol Channel, Morecambe Bay, Solway Firth etc etc. We need to develop all of this, with nuclear as baseload.  We need to electrify as quite simply our (UK) oil & gas reserves are much depleted, yes still some last but all the big, easy stuff has long gone.

I doubt coal will come back, as I doubt shale gas etc. But it aint going anywhere and will be availiable for future generations if ever required (which I doubt).

Transport HS2 should be built in full, Golborne link and Wigan by pass included. New trains need customer input (seats etc) at the design stage, The long running situation re industrial action needs sorting as a priority - it is killing our railways. New lines often discussed need reopening, our bus system is also a joke. Car manufacturers need to work harder on more affordable vehicles.  Public transport in the UK is DEPLORABLE in 2024.

Food We CAN grow all our own food if we so wish as approximately 36% of the land is croppable (arable), or approximately 25% of the total UK land area. Most of the rest is permanent grassland, rough grazing and other land on agricultural holdings.

Housing can and should be more affordable, build more council houses, affordable houses etc. Introduce price & rent controls (?). In the direction we are heading our offspring (and theirs) will own nothing - but will they be happy ?

Employment - We need to manufacture the basics, especially raw new steel etc - as green as possible. Electric arc recycled steel is OK for many, but not all uses. China is going into freefall economically. They have had there day. It's not all about cheap labour anymore, those days have gone.

Climate Change. We emit under 1% of the planets CO2. We are doing our bit (and more).

Politics / Policies I'll just say I have no faith in anyone anymore.

War - A difficult one. We need to at the minimum ensure are services are well manned and equiped.

 

Don't ever write this country off.

 

The Romans wanted it and got it (well up to Carlisle / Newcastle !!), The Normans took us in 1066. The Spanish, French and Germans all tried several times after that with no success, WHY ? - Because we are Treasure Island of course !!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

Edited February 9 by APOLLO

[C126]

7 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Don't ever write this country off.

 

I admire your pride, but fear what you have written above does just that.  Our voters do not wish to vote for policies that enable us to be a 'Treasure Island' again, including improving our beloved railways.

 

 

[APOLLO]

1 minute ago, C126 said:

 

I admire your pride, but fear what you have written above does just that.  Our voters do not wish to vote for policies that enable us to be a 'Treasure Island' again, including improving our beloved railways.

 

 

 

Unfortunate but true.

 

Brit15

[rodent279]

Are we, as voters, mature enough to allow politicians to tell us what we need to hear (not want to hear), without ending their careers instantly?

 

Until we are, there will be no significant change.

[adb968008]

31 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Too many people in the world and not enough resourses.

Everyboby wants the "Western" lifestyle - but the planet cannot support that.

If they can't get this lifestyle in their country they will march en mass to where they perceive they can (as probably you and I would).

The problems we face in the UK are nowadays seemingly universal, however,

 

The basics (UK)

 

Energy  We were self sufficient (coal, oil, gas) but no are longer. WE all (should) know the story.

Transport New ICE cars gone by 2030, EV's still many questions, HS2 fiasco, Our new trains are rubbish, Smart motorways an expensive and dangerous disaster. etc etc

Food  Far too much is imported - look at news re farmers in France, Germany etc.

Housing - A disaster area. No way my house is worth 4X what I paid for it in 1993 - but "the market" says it is.

Employment - Another looming disaster area, AI, etc etc Also the scene has changed, working from home etc etc (not neccesarilly a bad thing).

Climate Change links everything, and, wether you believe in it or not, to whatever degree, CC WILL change everything. 

Then we have the Politics, the15 minute cites, ownership (or not !!) of anything etc

War - Ukraine, Middle East and perhaps China, N Korea, Iran etc - The world certainly cannot afford this.

 

It need not be like this in the UK,

 

Energy. We are STILL energy rich with wind / second highest tidal range on the planet with several large and suitable estuaries (Bristol Channel, Morecambe Bay, Solway Firth etc etc. We need to develop all of this, with nuclear as baseload.  We need to electrify as quite simply our (UK) oil & gas reserves are much depleted, yes still some last but all the big, easy stuff has long gone.

I doubt coal will come back, as I doubt shale gas etc. But it aint going anywhere and will be availiable for future generations if ever required (which I doubt).

Transport HS2 should be built in full, Golborne link and Wigan by pass included. New trains need customer input (seats etc) at the design stage, The long running situation re industrial action needs sorting as a priority - it is killing our railways. New lines often discussed need reopening, our bus system is also a joke. Car manufacturers need to work harder on more affordable vehicles.  Public transport in the UK is DEPLORABLE in 2024.

Food We CAN grow all our own food if we so wish as approximately 36% of the land is croppable (arable), or approximately 25% of the total UK land area. Most of the rest is permanent grassland, rough grazing and other land on agricultural holdings.

Housing can and should be more affordable, build more council houses, affordable houses etc. Introduce price & rent controls (?). In the direction we are heading our offspring (and theirs) will own nothing - but will they be happy ?

Employment - We need to manufacture the basics, especially raw new steel etc - as green as possible. Electric arc recycled steel is OK for many, but not all uses. China is going into freefall economically. They have had there day. It's not all about cheap labour anymore, those days have gone.

Climate Change. We emit under 1% of the planets CO2. We are doing our bit (and more).

Politics / Policies I'll just say I have no faith in anyone anymore.

War - A difficult one. We need to at the minimum ensure are services are well manned and equiped.

 

Don't ever write this country off.

 

The Romans wanted it and got it (well up to Carlisle / Newcastle !!), The Normans took us in 1066. The Spanish, French and Germans all tried several times after that with no success, WHY ? - Because we are Treasure Island of course !!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

If you find the treasure, let us know, remember everyone feels they are entitled to a bit more than everyone else, and questions why anyone should have more than them.

 

 

Edited February 9 by adb968008

[billbedford]

12 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Until we are, there will be no significant change.

 

Of course, there will be. It's the End of Empire, interesting times are afoot. 

[62613]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/finance/rail-industry-finance/
 

Rail industry income. £22bn.

 

However theres some paper money here… The govt gives Network Rail £7bn, but counts £3.4bn as “other income” recieved from Network Rail.

so perhaps its really a £18.6bn railway ?

The UK has 31million tax payers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/income-tax-liabilities-statistics-tax-year-2020-to-2021-to-tax-year-2023-to-2024/bulletin-commentary#:~:text=5.1 Number of Income Tax,UK in 2020 to 2021.

(section 2.2)

 

So if the £18bn was divided by the 31mn, it works out £50 per month, and we could have a free to use railway network for everyone.. young and old.

 

That would decimate the car/road industry somewhat and push the green credentials up a notch.

£50 p/m (£600 per year) is a bargain, and a considerable saving to those currently using it.

 

 

Same old mistake of just taking income tax as "tax"; there are about 40, million people who able to vote (650 seats x average electorate of  62,000). Presumably they all buy VAT - registered goods, or some like alcoholic drinks, or smoke, or fill their vehicles with fuel, on which large amounts of other taxes are paid. Your cost may not be even that high! 

[billbedford]

You really shouldn't listen to the Greenies. It does your mental health no good. 

 

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Too many people in the world and not enough resourses.

 

Birth rates are falling just about everywhere except the poorest countries in Africa. S. Korea and Japan have falling populations, and China is due to follow within the next few decades. The populations of Northern Europe and North America have been sustained by immigration for at least a generation. Although people are still living longer, the effect on populations will diminish once all the Boomers die off. 

 

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Everyboby wants the "Western" lifestyle - but the planet cannot support that.

 

I see no evidence that is true of the majority of people. 

 

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

If they can'y get this lifestyle in their country they will march en mass to where they perceive they can (as probably you and I would).

 

What is known about most migrations is that it is the most resourceful who move. This was as true of British and European emigrants in the 19th & 20th centuries as it is of immigrants to Britain and Europe today. 

 

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

The problems we face in the UK are nowadays seemingly universal, however,

 

The problems are not Universal, just for the Western Hegemon. 

Edited February 9 by billbedford

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

Same old mistake of just taking income tax as "tax"; there are about 40, million people who able to vote (650 seats x average electorate of  62,000). Presumably they all buy VAT - registered goods, or some like alcoholic drinks, or smoke, or fill their vehicles with fuel, on which large amounts of other taxes are paid. Your cost may not be even that high! 

Why not read the sources, the 31m is from the governments own website, though i grant you i’d not trust that either.

 

Putting it on vat? I’m not sure how that would work.

putting it on road tax however, would be interesting, that might level things up a little… arguably ULEZ is exactly that.

Edited February 9 by adb968008

[Northmoor]

I think I might have to ignore this topic shortly.......

[62613]

18 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Why not read the sources, the 31m is from the governments own website, though i grant you i’d not trust that either.

 

Putting it on vat? I’m not sure how that would work.

putting it on road tax however, would be interesting, that might level things up a little.

The point I was making was this; your 31 million people are those that pay income tax, but as I have pointed out above, that isn't the only tax that people pay, also there are quite a few adults that don't pay any tax at all; the discrepancy between the numbers on the voting register and those paying income tax shows that. VAT, on most goods to which it applies forms 16.6666.....% of the cost of purchase; 60 - 70% of the cost of motor fuel is tax.

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, 62613 said:

The point I was making was this; your 31 million people are those that pay income tax, but as I have pointed out above, that isn't the only tax that people pay, also there are quite a few adults that don't pay any tax at all; the discrepancy between the numbers on the voting register and those paying income tax shows that. VAT, on most goods to which it applies forms 16.6666.....% of the cost of purchase; 60 - 70% of the cost of motor fuel is tax.

Thats really nice, but my suggestion was to put it on income tax, not vat or non earning individuals, because if they arent earning they cannot pay.. vat or income tax because they arent earning… you cant get blood from a stone.

 

Retired could be considered to have paid their way, young have potential to… non-earning… well we could debate the merits of providing free travel all day.

 

But from the taxpaying base, at face value this looks to be a bargain and an excellent way to invest and to attract from a car… the cost of travel today is a barrier, especially leisure group travel (car wins every time) and those on lower incomes.

 

of course any economist will tell you demand falls as prices rise, which begs the question why are fares today are what they are ?

 

what I find odd is the rail industry is so reluctant to experiment with anything to do with fares. Promos of any kinds are virtually non existant, ok they finally did the covid encourage everyone back fare, 3 years after covid and ends in March.

Edited February 9 by adb968008