HS2

[jamie92208]

Will someone wake me up when we actually start talking about HS2 again....

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

Chilterns Tunnels...

A report elsewhere (Paul Clifton - BBC transport correspondent) says that Florence was due to break through today.

However, the "ceremony" due to be held with the Rail Minister present, was cancelled.

Presumably re-scheduled for early next week?

 

 

.

 

 

 

[bimble]

34 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Chilterns Tunnels...

A report elsewhere (Paul Clifton - BBC transport correspondent) says that Florence was due to break through today.

However, the "ceremony" due to be held with the Rail Minister present, was cancelled.

Presumably re-scheduled for early next week?

 

 

does this mean they're delaying the breakthrough for a delayed photo op?  So when people wonder why HS2 ends up being late and over budget... 🙄

[GordonC]

4 hours ago, C126 said:

 

I admire your pride, but fear what you have written above does just that.  Our voters do not wish to vote for policies that enable us to be a 'Treasure Island' again, including improving our beloved railways.

 

 

 

I'm not sure politicians of any colour have taken long term views of things ... and there's zero choice for voters for those that would

[corneliuslundie]

Remember the phrase "A week is a long time in politics".

Back on HS2, I wonder what spin the minister will but on things when he attends the breakthrough.

Anyone want to write his script for him?

J

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I think I might have to ignore this topic shortly.......

 

I suspect it will settle back in a bit once folk have got things off their chest.

 

Yes its supposed to be about HS2 - but when the a Government basically axes most of it  - but leaving lots of lose ends and unanswered questions all over the place its inevitable that Politics will come to the fore.

 

Put it this way had Phase 2A not been cancelled and the future of Euston thrown up in the air then I'm sure this thread would be a lot more infrastructure focused...

[adb968008]

At some point the construction phase will move into the track laying, signalling, masting phases….

 

If like europe HS construction (60 odd 37/56/58) I guess it starts to get more interesting as regards infra trains than run on HS2 metals for eng purposes.

 

Originally I thought this may be why the HST power cars stuck around, using them on eng trains, at low speeds in a run down state would seem fair enough.. but these are now heading over seas. 60’s dont look a good proposition.

 

We dont seem to have much grot hanging about now, and most of whats on the network is reasonably well used (GBrF 73’s aside in the summer)..

 

so leaves me wondering if were going to see preserved diesels hired in for this work ?

 

 

Edited February 9 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

At some point the construction phase will move into the track laying, signalling, masting phases….

 

If like europe HS construction (60 odd 37/56/58) I guess it starts to get more interesting as regards infra trains.

 

Originally I thought this may be why the HST power cars stuck around, using them on eng trains, at low speeds in a run down state would seem fair enough.. but these are now heading over seas.

 

We dont seem to have much grot hanging about now, and most of whats on the network is reasonably well used (GBrF 73’s aside in the summer).. so leaves me wondering if were going to see preserved diesels hired in for this work ?

 

 

Given HS2 is trying to set new standards for environmental sustainability during construction the use of worn out Smokey diesels is the last thing they would want to do.

 

IIRC HS1 though Kent used brand new / nearly new class 66 locos for the work - the few Heritage machines they did use being deployed for yard work.

 

So I with regards to HS2 I would expect either well maintained 66s being the staple traction - with things like reactivated 60s etc being used to backfill the gaps that creates on Network Rail.

[adb968008]

16 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Given HS2 is trying to set new standards for environmental sustainability during construction the use of worn out Smokey diesels is the last thing they would want to do.

 

IIRC HS1 though Kent used brand new / nearly new class 66 locos for the work - the few Heritage machines they did use being deployed for yard work.

 

So I with regards to HS2 I would expect either well maintained 66s being the staple traction - with things like reactivated 60s etc being used to backfill the gaps that creates on Network Rail.

HS1 used all manner of stuff, at least two class 14’s, several 20’s, some SNCF BB22000’s some German MAK diesels…

Theres a picture of a green 20 on Medway viaduct out there.

 

if the 66’s are to be used where are they coming from, theres only a handful not in service, and GBRF are teasing a handful from Europe.

 

DB is winding down the 60’s, and selling nearly half its 67 fleet (not that 67’s are going to be any use)… 60’s are going to need several years to get stepped up… its taken 4 years to bring back 10 class 69’s.

An easy one would be reactivating class 90’s, to free up 66’s but DB are selling them likely for scrap or export too.

i’m not even convinced DBS will still be a german owned business in the Uk by the time this works starts

 

 

Heres an idea of France HS construction work.

https://www.dawlishtrains.com/class-37s-in-france.html

Are they hoping the class 18 fleet are going to do this ?

Remember HS1 is a baby compared to HS2, its twice as long…are they going to deliver 140 miles of double track ballast by road ?

 

 

Edited February 10 by adb968008

[Mark Saunders]

16 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

HS1 used all manner of stuff, at least two class 14’s, several 20’s, some SNCF BB22000’s some German MAK diesels…

Theres a picture of a green 20 on Medway viaduct out there.

 

if the 66’s are to be used where are they coming from, theres only a handful not in service, and GBRF are teasing a handful from Europe.

 

DB is winding down the 60’s, and selling nearly half its 67 fleet (not that 67’s are going to be any use)… 60’s are going to need several years to get stepped up… its taken 4 years to bring back 10 class 69’s.

An easy one would be reactivating class 90’s, to free up 66’s but DB are selling them likely for scrap or export too.

i’m not even convinced DBS will still be a german owned business in the Uk by the time this works starts

 

 

Heres an idea of France HS construction work.

https://www.dawlishtrains.com/class-37s-in-france.html

Are they hoping the class 18 fleet are going to do this ?

Remember HS1 is a baby compared to HS2, its twice as long…are they going to deliver 140 miles of double track ballast by road ?

 

 

 

For site use there are the former British Steel Teesside Lackenby GECt  75 ton 6w locomotives stored at Lackenby!

[jamie92208]

It's going to be interesting with potentially only one access point for the whole site from the National network at Calvert.  As I understand it the sleepers are going to come in precast units from IIRC Merehead, the rails will obviously have to come by rail from Scunthorpe.  Borders Rail got a train per day of rail and that had enough rail for just over a mile of track.  That would need nearly a working year to lay the rail. With the preformed trackbed they won't need the huge amounts of ballast.   

 

As to locos perhaps they wil get new build, DE18's from Vossloh. 

 

Jamie

T

[corneliuslundie]

Will Scunthorpe still be making virgin steel long enough to supply?

Or will the rails have to come from India or China . . . ?

And surely there must be a rail access point at OOC and another in the Birmingham area?

Locos? The preserved lines have plenty of steam ones spare at the moment which they can't afford to run . . .  Hat, coat

J

[jamie92208]

31 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Will Scunthorpe still be making virgin steel long enough to supply?

Or will the rails have to come from India or China . . . ?

And surely there must be a rail access point at OOC and another in the Birmingham area?

Locos? The preserved lines have plenty of steam ones spare at the moment which they can't afford to run . . .  Hat, coat

J

There's no access at OOC as it's too deep below the surface lines.  In Birmingham it might be possible to make a connection at Washwood Heath. Also there's no chance of connections at either Euston or Handsacre as neither are under construction.  I think that Scunthorpe will have the capacity but with steel sourced from scrap using electric arc furnaces.  The decision to get rid of the UK's capacity to make steel from ore is a whole other can of worms for strategic interests but we better not go down that wormhole. 

 

Jamie

[corneliuslundie]

Re the Birmingham area, as there is going to be a link of some kind to the WCML I was thinking that that would be the access. 

Of course at Curzon Street it would only take a short connecting link to access it via the various yards south of the new station, but levels may again be a problem.

Re steel: is recycled steel suitable for rails? I don't know but I gather it is not suitable for making cars. But as you say another can of worms.

Jonathan

[Ron Ron Ron]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

…….i’m not even convinced DBS will still be a german owned business in the Uk by the time this works starts…..

 

 

Putting on the pedant hat for a moment…..While it’s reported that DB Group is looking at a sale of DBS, do note that DB Cargo (UK) hasn’t been part of that subsidiary for 8 years.

However, I take your point. 

DBC (UK) is likely to be sold off at some point.

Parent DB Group are in need of funds to cover their huge losses and to help finance urgently needed infrastructure work.

 

 

.

 

[corneliuslundie]

Re DB, I thought that was the British way of making a mess of things - sell off the family silver to pay the bills now and be even worse off later.

I think it is as much "politics" as finance that is involved with DB: "what are you doing wasting time with these foreign buses and trains when you can't run things properly at home?"

J

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 minute ago, corneliuslundie said:

….Of course at Curzon Street it would only take a short connecting link to access it via the various yards south of the new station, but levels may again be a problem…..

 

Impossible.

HS2 will be high up on viaducts.

There can be no link to any other rail infrastructure, between Curzon St. and Washwood Heath, without major civil engineering to completely redesign viaducts which are already under construction.

.

 

[phil-b259]

36 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Re the Birmingham area, as there is going to be a link of some kind to the WCML I was thinking that that would be the access. 

 

The only physical connection between HS2 and the classic network is going to be at Handsacre onto the WCML - but with the cancellation of phase 2A the junction design as laid out in the authorising acts of parliament is no longer fit for purpose so needs redesigning and like Euston will only be finished after the main section of phase 1 is done.

 

Although I have long said that a connection between HS2 and the classic lines at Washford Heath is a very desirable thing in terms of future proofing / maximising the use of HS2, the brutal truth is there won’t be one.

 

As Jamie has said unless a temporary connection is installed at Washford Heath then EVERYTHING will be done from the Calvert base.

[62613]

On 08/02/2024 at 14:52, Ron Ron Ron said:

With Labour’s £28b flagship Green plans now thrown in the bin, what chance they can rustle up the money for restoring HS2 Phase 2a &b ?

 

 

.

I think the ambition is still there for a green plan; I think Labour have balked at putting a figure on the amount to be spent, so as not to give ammunition to the other side. I wish they'd stop worrying what commentators will say and be a bit bolder in their aspirations.

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for the explanation re Handsacre. But does that mean that there will be no way for trains from OOC to continue north of Birmingham? I am confused.

J

[jamie92208]

Handsacre is a b##gers muddle at the moment. As I understand it the original HS2 phase 1 act authorised a high speed flying Junction onto the fast lines. Expensive to build with much moving of existing tracks. Then plans for  phase 2a took off much faster tha expected.  Some traffic analysis was done and it became apparent that very few trains would use the Handsacre connection.  They thus repealed the relevant part of the Phase 1 act and put a simpler design that gave access to the Outer slow lines at Handsacre.  Much cheaper and less land take.  Then some fool cancelled phase 2a.  This means that the use of the existing powers would have two effects. 

 

1. It would tie up the whole WCML north of Handsacre as trains went onto the slows the used slow speed crossovers further north to access the fast lines

 

2, with non tilting trains, Manchester services would be very little faster than existing Pende. Inos. 

 

The powers that be have also paused all work on the Handsacre connection from some point north of the Delta junction near Water Orton. 

 

I hope I've got this right. 

 

It could be possible to put a connection in at Euston but someone has paused the construction of the tunnels between OOC and Euston. 

 

Jamie

 

Edited February 10 by jamie92208

[adb968008]

Flashback found on twitter of HS1..

 

didnt realise a narrow gauge line was laid at Stratford intl..

https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/358456/view/stratford-eurostar-station-construction
 

 

 

[Arun Sharma]

31 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Handsacre is a b##gers muddle at the moment. As I understand it the original HS2 phase 1 act authorised a high speed flying Junction onto the fast lines. Expensive to build with much moving of existing tracks. Then plans for  phase 2a took off much faster tha expected.  Some traffic analysis was done and it became apparent that very few trains would use the Handsacre connection.  They thus repealed the relevant part of the Phase 1 act and put a simpler design that gave access to the Outer slow lines at Handsacre.  Much cheaper and less land take.  Then some fool cancelled phase 2a.  This means that the use of the existing powers would have two effects. 

 

1. It would tie up the whole WCML north of Handsacre as trains went onto the slows the used slow speed crossovers further north to access the fast lines

 

2, with non tilting trains, Manchester services would be very little faster than existing Pende. Inos. 

 

The powers that be have also paused all work on the Handsacre connection from some point north of the Delta junction near Water Orton. 

 

I hope I've got this right. 

 

It could be possible to put a connection in at Euston but someone has paused the construction of the tunnels between OOC and Euston. 

 

Jamie

 

An interesting and succint overview of an essential part of the railway designed to relieve congestion on the WCML. What bothers me is that DfT must have known this would happen yet they still didn't effectively protest to or convince their political masters. It beggers belief.

[APOLLO]

I would not be surprised if a Civil (!!) Servant in DfT suggests Wormwood Scrubs to Curzon Street to be laid at 5 foot gauge thus saving more money by ruling out connections, through running etc - It seems this is how they think.

 

Time to scrap it all and save more money being wasted for the Plebs north of Watford ? What's already built can be tarmaced cobbled over and used for buses to the north.

 

 

Brit15

 

 

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

An interesting and succint overview of an essential part of the railway designed to relieve congestion on the WCML. What bothers me is that DfT must have known this would happen yet they still didn't effectively protest to or convince their political masters. It beggers belief.

From what is starting to emerge the DfT weren't involved in the cancellation decisionuntil very very late in the day. They also had very little idea of the Network North fiasco. 

 

Jamie

Edited February 10 by jamie92208