HS2

[caradoc]

5 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Believe that the Bicester to Oxford section of Cilterns service from Marylebone was delayed for a long time due to bat's being found in the tunnel.

 

There were other issues with the Oxford/Bicester section, in particular I recall complaints from the owners of a riding school near Bicester that people would DIE because train horns would cause horses to rear up in fright. Fortunately construction of a horse tunnel was not deemed necessary.... and I have not seen any reports of train-caused horse or rider fatalities since the line re-opened!

 

[Mark Saunders]

2 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

There were other issues with the Oxford/Bicester section, in particular I recall complaints from the owners of a riding school near Bicester that people would DIE because train horns would cause horses to rear up in fright. Fortunately construction of a horse tunnel was not deemed necessary.... and I have not seen any reports of train-caused horse or rider fatalities since the line re-opened!

 

As far as I know there has not been any problems at Riding School Crossing at Saltburn!

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

There were other issues with the Oxford/Bicester section, in particular I recall complaints from the owners of a riding school near Bicester that people would DIE because train horns would cause horses to rear up in fright. Fortunately construction of a horse tunnel was not deemed necessary.... and I have not seen any reports of train-caused horse or rider fatalities since the line re-opened!

 

 

Horses are not listed as endangered species - bats generally are! Moreover stout fencing will easily prevent horses coming into contact with trains but as bats are flying creatures its virtually impossible to stop them ending up foul of the line and being killed.

 

Also,  although the possibility of horses being 'spooked' by train horns may sound trival, as many horse riders who interact with motor vehicles will testify, being thrown from / trying to calm an out of control horse is a dangerous situation to be in. That said, like humans, it won't take long for horses to become acclimatised to the sound of trains once they are exposed to them for a couple of months so the increased danger is temporary.

Edited February 13 by phil-b259

[billbedford]

I'm still not sure how this bat tunnel is supposed to work. At first, I thought it might be a roost, but then I saw that it was to prevent bats from flying into trains. Really? Are the existing railways lined with dead bats?  

 

As far as I can see the £40m would be better spent putting wire cages around wind turbines which are known to kill both bags and birds. 

[APOLLO]

8 minutes ago, billbedford said:

I'm still not sure how this bat tunnel is supposed to work.

 

It works like this.

 

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

11 minutes ago, billbedford said:

I'm still not sure how this bat tunnel is supposed to work. At first, I thought it might be a roost, but then I saw that it was to prevent bats from flying into trains. Really? Are the existing railways lined with dead bats?  

 

As far as I can see the £40m would be better spent putting wire cages around wind turbines which are known to kill both bags and birds. 

 

Like many creatures Bats tend to hunt for prey / transit along the same routes day after day using eco-location (sound waves bouncing back from physical structures to keep them correctly orientated and avoid collisions)

 

Thats why you sometimes see wire netting used to create 'Bat bridges' across roads where the construction of the road has smashed through a hedge line / field boundary which Bats use for navigation.

 

In this case the contentious roof like structure is meant to mimic the trees which were there before HS2 was constructed thus preventing the Bats losing their way or mistaking the railway line for a strip of open ground (and if they think that way then there is obviously a chance they will get low enough to be electrocuted / hit by trains)

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

I'm still not sure how this bat tunnel is supposed to work. At first, I thought it might be a roost, but then I saw that it was to prevent bats from flying into trains. Really? Are the existing railways lined with dead bats?  

 

As far as I can see the £40m would be better spent putting wire cages around wind turbines which are known to kill both bags and birds. 

 

(1) Bats are not extensively strewn across the countryside in terms of colonies - if they were they wouldn't be listed as endangered!

 

(2) Where a railway has been in existence for 100 - 250 years then the Bats will have evolved to take account of it presence. The issue with HS2 is that something NEW is being introduced into the Bats habitat which was not there before.

 

(3) What part of Endangered species is hard to understand? If a particular creature is classed as 'endangered' then its reasonable to assume that there aren't that many of them in existence and the consequences of a significant proportion of the population being killed while the colony 'gets used' to the new situation is very likely the threaten the viability of the whole colony and lead to its collapse. For far too long people have been taking the selfish attitude that nature doesn't matter or is somehow not worth spending money on and things we desire like tax cuts or cheap goods / services are of paramount importance. Just because the Victorians say were quite happy to decimate Bat colonies when building railways doesn't mean we should be doing the same today

 

(4)  If the proposed site of a wind turbine is found to be in a location where endangered species are found to be present and the turbine can reasonably be expected to cause issues to said species then it probably won't get approval. 

Edited February 13 by phil-b259

[Arun Sharma]

17 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

I thought that at first glance, but quickly noticed the map is turned on its side.

North is on the left, south on the right.

There are obvious clues from the locations marked on the map, such as the Greatmoor Energy from Waste plant, just to the south of Calvert and the relative positions of Quainton and Calvert villages. 
 

 

.

What's confusing me is the presence of a chord from the northbound HS2 to the Eastbound EWR suggesting that there will be a link between Aylesbury Vale and Winslow. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

57 minutes ago, Arun Sharma said:

What's confusing me is the presence of a chord from the northbound HS2 to the Eastbound EWR suggesting that there will be a link between Aylesbury Vale and Winslow. 

 

I understand it's for a separate line running parallel to and not linked to HS2.

AIUI, there's no funding for this line to be extended beyond a new unloading facility at Calvert, to Aylesbury.

 

 

.

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

I understand it's for a separate line running parallel to and not linked to HS2.

AIUI, there's no funding for this line to be extended beyond a new unloading facility at Calvert, to Aylesbury.

 

 

.

From various things I've seen this chord is for the so called Aylesbury link.  Passive provision has tbe made for it, and think the trace of the chord is being built by EWR but no funding has been found yet to build the link. This would enable Chiltern to serve MK etc from Aylesbury. 

 

Jamie

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

I understand it's for a separate line running parallel to and not linked to HS2.

AIUI, there's no funding for this line to be extended beyond a new unloading facility at Calvert, to Aylesbury.

 

 

.

The link was fully funded in the early days of the EWR project - but was one of the things that got dropped / sacrificed as the price to be paid for HM Treasury letting the project itself continue as costs rose.
 

The pandemic didn’t help matters as the masive decline I ridership was eagerly siezed on by said Whitehall mandarins who insist that a Aylesbury service would never attract decent patronage….

[Arun Sharma]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The link was fully funded in the early days of the EWR project - but was one of the things that got dropped / sacrificed as the price to be paid for HM Treasury letting the project itself continue as costs rose.
 

The pandemic didn’t help matters as the masive decline I ridership was eagerly siezed on by said Whitehall mandarins who insist that a Aylesbury service would never attract decent patronage….

Yet, my understanding is that all the evidence suggests that reopening old railways causes unexpectedly larger passenger numbers than predicted. An example perhaps of, "If you build it, they will come...."

 

Edited February 14 by Arun Sharma
punctuation, grammar

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

Yet, my understanding is that all the evidence suggests that reopening old railways causes unexpectedly larger passenger numbers than predicted. An example perhaps of, "If you build it, they will come...."

 

HM Treasury (and the DfT) have always lived in a parallel universe when it comes to rail reopening despite plenty of evidence from the devolved administrations…

 

To their mindset any rail expansion is bad because even a line / station is very successful then it’s not going to generate enough revenue to compensate for the extra subsidy they will have to shell out.

 

As such it is far better from a financial perspective to sit there saying “the computer says no” (I.e. poor BCR ratios using conservative ridership figures) and pat themselves on the back for the taxpayers money they haven’t spent….

[jamie92208]

This video about the construction of the Colne Valley viaduct has just been posted.  

 

 

Stilno tunnel breakthrough news.

 

lamie

[ess1uk]

two more sinkholes have opened up within five days of each other  at Frith Hill in Bucks on the 7th Feb and 12th Feb 2024.

this section of route was originally due to be at surface level.

the bedrock in the area is chalk which is vulnerable to sinkholes

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

HM Treasury (and the DfT) have always lived in a parallel universe when it comes to rail reopening despite plenty of evidence from the devolved administrations…

 

To their mindset any rail expansion is bad because even a line / station is very successful then it’s not going to generate enough revenue to compensate for the extra subsidy they will have to shell out.

 

As such it is far better from a financial perspective to sit there saying “the computer says no” (I.e. poor BCR ratios using conservative ridership figures) and pat themselves on the back for the taxpayers money they haven’t spent….

The representatives of the devolved administrations - who need to get elected - are probably closer to the business case decision-making process, whereas the Westminster MPs are distanced from it by the DfT, so are more likely to spend time talking about the scheme concerned.  There are many issues that are not devolved to the Welsh and Scottish assemblies so there, a rail reopening might be the 2nd or 3rd most significant election issue.  In most English MP's constituencies, it's likely to be about 12th.

 

In defence of the DfT, predicting passenger numbers isn't reliable; most people don't know if they will make use of something that doesn't exist.  And while many re-openings and new services have exceeded predictions, it's not a certainty that they will: Cardiff's City Line, Swanline (although there are good reasons for that to underperform), Anglia's Basingstoke - Norwich service* and perhaps the most expensive miscalculation, HS1.  Building infrastructure for freight is even more unpredictable and again, the Channel Tunnel sets the standard that every project should try to avoid. 

 

It's hard for other forms of public transport too; many park-and-ride bus schemes don't carry anywhere near the passenger numbers predicted.  Not related to HS2 but the same is almost uniformly true of preserved railways.  Virtually none have ever achieved the passenger numbers predicted by their promoters.

 

*Everyone said that the public were crying out for a through service across London so that changing trains/using the Underground wasn't required.  It was apparently obvious to everyone, but it was a commercial failure. 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

 

*Everyone said that the public were crying out for a through service across London so that changing trains/using the Underground wasn't required.  It was apparently obvious to everyone, but it was a commercial failure. 

 

 

IIRC the issue was more that because it was incredibly difficult to path the service over lots of intensively used lines it ended up running at odd times and stuck behind other traffic which meant that journey times were lengthy.

 

Although there are some passengers who appreciate direct trains its rare that they will be enough to make a train service in itself viable - Thameslink trains may well go from Bedford to Brighton but well over three quarters of customers do not actually pass through to the other side of London. 

 

 

[DenysW]

18 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Thameslink trains may well go from Bedford to Brighton but well over three quarters of customers do not actually pass through to the other side of London

Yes, agreed. I get off at West Hampstead Thameslink to change on the Overground (formerly the West Hampstead Junction Railway then the North and South Western Junction Railway, then the District/LSWR) to get to Kew.

 

It annoys me that the Bedford->Three Bridges services don't stop at West Hampstead TL to let me off.

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

This video about the construction of the Colne Valley viaduct has just been posted.  

 

 

Stilno tunnel breakthrough news.

 

lamie

The only bit that isn't labelled is the infill in the six-foot and the cess. Is that ballast and, if so, why?

[david.hill64]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The only bit that isn't labelled is the infill in the six-foot and the cess. Is that ballast and, if so, why?

Wild guess: noise attenuation. That hollow box is going to be a nice sounding board. Ballast would not impede drainage and muffle sounds.

[62613]

19 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

HM Treasury (and the DfT) have always lived in a parallel universe when it comes to rail reopening despite plenty of evidence from the devolved administrations…

 

To their mindset any rail expansion is bad because even a line / station is very successful then it’s not going to generate enough revenue to compensate for the extra subsidy they will have to shell out.

 

As such it is far better from a financial perspective to sit there saying “the computer says no” (I.e. poor BCR ratios using conservative ridership figures) and pat themselves on the back for the taxpayers money they haven’t spent….

Also the loss of revenue from motor fuel duty, with fewer car jouneys being made (Yes, seriously! I have seen this given as one of the reasons for not reinstating the Lewes - Uckfield route)

[St Enodoc]

37 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

Wild guess: noise attenuation. That hollow box is going to be a nice sounding board. Ballast would not impede drainage and muffle sounds.

Could be. It would add a fair bit of dead weight, of course, and also I don't think I've ever seen slab track with a ballast infill like that before.

[Siberian Snooper]

6 hours ago, 62613 said:

Also the loss of revenue from motor fuel duty, with fewer car jouneys being made (Yes, seriously! I have seen this given as one of the reasons for not reinstating the Lewes - Uckfield route)

 

The Treasury won't be getting much fuel duty revenue when all vehicles are electric, or are they going to add duty to electricity prices?

 

[jamie92208]

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Could be. It would add a fair bit of dead weight, of course, and also I don't think I've ever seen slab track with a ballast infill like that before.

I may turn out to be some sort of cosmetic infill that's permeable to rain. 

 

Jamie

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

The Treasury won't be getting much fuel duty revenue when all vehicles are electric, or are they going to add duty to electricity prices?

 

Of course they are but they will wait until there are more of them on the roads.