“BEYOND DOVER”

[NHY 581]

3 hours ago, 5944 said:

With the original oil lamps, they're appropriate up until the mid 30s at the latest. Later on they were fitted with electric lights of roughly the same size, but without the triangle on the front. In the 60s smaller, brass electric lights became the norm. They'll be ok with the two-tone brown (castano and Isabella) coaches and wagons labelled FS Italia.

 

851s were designed for local passenger work, so one of them with a couple of coaches and a van is appropriate. Later they became more used for shunting and station pilot work, but a few were still used for local passenger services until 1969. The last few were withdrawn in the early 70s.

 

The 835s were purely shunting locos, used in yards and as station pilots. The last one (835.166) was still in use, as a depot pet at Falconara, until January 1984! Being solely shunting locos, Rivarossi's decision, both on the late 90s version and this modern one released a few years ago, not to include or even give provision for a front coupling is very bizarre!

 

 

All noted. I'm still locating photos but in relation to your observations above, there are always exceptions........All the photos are from 1955 onwards and are as credited for copyright purposes. Here's just a sample. 

 

 

Gr 851 with oil lamps and one triangle remaining. 1959

 

 

Gr 835 seemingly on a branch passenger in 1976. 

 

 

Gr 835 probably shunting but displaying oil lamps with triangles. 1955. Photo credit Franco Faglia..

 

Other photos show electric lights and I have found at least one 835 with one oil lamp and one electric lamp on the front taken in the 1970s. 

 

Both models have provision for front couplings and simply require a cover removing and replacing to add the supplied NEM pocket and either the supplied coupling or one of your choice. I might try kadees. We'll see. 

 

When I get around to it, I'll probably go for a simple shunting layout. Nothing fancy. Small, weedy, minimal.......though the Acme 6 wheel coaches are rather spiffing. 

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

[Northroader]

The branch passenger was a special organised by CFB, but I think it’s sufficiently attractive for rule 1 to apply

 

 

https://www.cfbonline.it

 

(Now, if I was into HO, I’d rather fancy those six wheel coaches on that site)

Edited July 29, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

Just for the say so, I was poking round for an Italian branch line, equivalent to the GWR Ashburton branch, say, and one I found is in the North, from a Junction at Busca to a terminus at Dronero, where the flat farmland ends and the hills begin.

 

https://www.regione.piemonte.it/web/sites/default/files/media/documenti/2018-10/busca_dronero.pdf

 

There’s a nice intermediate station at Castelletto di Busca, with a neat little building, and looking like it was worked by a small tank engine way back. It’s afraid it’s now abandoned, although it looks like some group is interested in running it.

 

(wonder if there’s a “Castelletto di Pecora”?)

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

SAN REMO.

 

Not especially a place for the 0-6-0Ts, although I’m sure you could see them there, but a really pleasant setting for a layout is San Remo, on the Italian Riviera. You will probably have come across the highly useful “Disused Stations” site, with good, well illustrated descriptions and history of railway stations that have shut down. Recently I spotted an Italian place has appeared in this thread, which sets out its shop as a U.K. site, not that I’m complaining, and it is well done and all in English, so….

 

http://disused-stations.org.uk/s/san_remo/index.shtml

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

On 28/07/2023 at 19:51, burgundy said:

Built partly so that officers' ladies could escape from the Rock and enjoy Spain. I assume that other ranks were unaccompanied and their wives stayed in the UK. 

 

As I read it, it was built so that officers could escape from the Rock and enjoy Spain without their ladies...

[burgundy]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As I read it, it was built so that officers could escape from the Rock and enjoy Spain without their ladies...

I dare say that it worked both ways!

For more detail try 

Mr Hendersons's Railway & Gibraltar connection (andalucia.com)

or 

Spanish Railway » Blog Archive » Algeciras Gibraltar Railway Cº (Algeciras- Bobadilla)

Best wishes 

Eric

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, burgundy said:

I dare say that it worked both ways!

 

That could have led to some unfortunate meetings.

[Northroader]

I have to confess to being a bit baffled by the Algeciras scheme ever gaining traction back then, especially for British finance. Gibraltar was quite comfortably linked to Britain by sea, there was never any desire by Spain to help any British improvements, and if you view the nature of the country traversed in the second half of the cab ride I’ve linked, the engineering involved was very costly.

I’ve looked up the journey times for the 1920s. You could leave London, say, Monday evening to catch a 10.50 am Tuesday departure from Paris Austerlitz, then by way of Irun and Medina del Campo arrive at Madrid Norte 0915 Wednesday morning. Spend the day kicking around Madrid, then a 21.35 departure from Atocha to get to Algeciras 13.05 Thursday afternoon. Now we’re railway enthusiasts, and would enjoy the journey, but I would suggest most travellers would have lost the will to live by then. Surely most traveller to Gib. would go by ship from a British port?

These days there is quite a wad of EU money going into refurbishing the Bobadilla line, with the idea of freight traffic from an improved port at Algeciras.

[burgundy]

16 hours ago, Northroader said:

I have to confess to being a bit baffled by the Algeciras scheme ever gaining traction back then, especially for British finance.

The British seem to have been quite interested in investing in railways in Southern Spain. There was not only the Great Southern Railway of Spain but also the Riotinto railway I wonder if the real interest was in accessing minerals that were mined in the mountains?

Best wishes 

Eric

PS The very British looking moguls on the GSSR are worth a look 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, burgundy said:

The British seem to have been quite interested in investing in railways in Southern Spain. There was not only the Great Southern Railway of Spain but also the Riotinto railway I wonder if the real interest was in accessing minerals that were mined in the mountains?

Best wishes 

Eric

PS The very British looking moguls on the GSSR are worth a look 

 

The Rio Tinto and the Tharsis railways were built solely to extract the inland minerals.

 

Both companies were originally, I believe, Glasgow-based, and the Tharsis had the same gauge as the Glasgow subway - 4ft.

 

The Tharsis was also a regular customer of the North British loco building company.

 

I had a personal guided tour, by the British Chief Mechanical Engineer, of the Tharsis Railway in the late 1970s.

 

John Isherwood.

[burgundy]

Not Furness

Best wishes 

Eric 

 

[Northroader]

Looking at that little train with the eyes of a scratch builder for an 0 gauge microlayout, a shiny inside cylinder 0-4-0 with tender, plus two four wheel coaches, is the perfect solution for all that’s wrong with todays world. A reactionary view, I confess, just escapism. Thanks, Eric, not the Furness, certainly, the tracks look a bit too wide apart?

Edited August 20, 2023 by Northroader

[burgundy]

The picture above shows one of the British built locos on the Isabel II railway in northern Spain. @Northroader has picked up on the broad gauge track and another clue is the double roof on the first carriage, suggesting that it is in a sunnier climate.

The Isabel II railway was named after the Spanish Queen (usually a good move to name a railway after a distinguished patron) and won a concession to build a railway from Santander southwards through the mountains, to Alar del Rey. The engineer was William Atkinson and a number of British contractors seem to have been involved.

For whatever reason, someone thought that the ideal loco power for a mountain railway would be 0-4-0 tender engines and 14 were duly bought from Isaac Dodds and Son of Rotherham. They seem not to have been paid for in full, as Dodds ended up in a precarious financial situation.

The first sections of the Isabel railway opened in 1860 and the final section, to give a total length of about 140 km, in 1866 – coinciding closely with the company being declared bankrupt. In 1868, Queen Isabel was deposed, so that the company lost its patron and had to change its name. It then found itself in the middle of a civil war, before finally being bought by the Norte in 1874.

Dodds was also unlucky. He won a contract for the supply of a pair of singles for the LB&SCR. The Brighton was similarly affected by the financial crash of 1866 and narrowly avoided bankruptcy, unlike the LCDR. It was the Brighton's good fortune that Dodds failed to deliver on time and the Brighton was able to avoid payment (which it could not have made). By that time, Dodds had gone into liquidation and the receiver finally arranged the sale of the singles to the Brighton in 1871, where they were named Norwood and Croydon.

All in all, not a very happy story, although I find the interlinkages fascinating!

Finally, recognition for Juan Peris Torner, for his blog of the Spanish railway system – with a very effective blog search engine and the assistance of google translate.

Best wishes 

Eric

Edited August 21, 2023 by burgundy
correct link

[Donw]

12 hours ago, Northroader said:

Looking at that little train with the eyes of a scratch builder for an 0 gauge microlayout, a shiny inside cylinder 0-4-0 with tender, plus two four wheel coaches, is the perfect solution for all that’s wrong with todays world. A reactionary view, I confess, just escapism. Thanks, Eric, not the Furness, certainly, the tracks look a bit too wide apart?

 

Can we expect to see one in the future?

 

Don

[Northroader]

FERROCARRIL SANTANDER - ALAR DEL REY.

 

Actually, the link Eric’s given is limping a bit, so, you can actually download a book on the line, which gives the full words and music, and if you want some gen on modelling a Spanish line… (or Dodds & Co, for that matter)

 

https://centrodeestudiosmontaneses.com/wp-content/uploads/DOC_CEM/BIBLIOTECA/EDICION_OTROS/ferrocarril-alar-santander_2015.pdf

 

That 0-4-0 is on page 299, with more photos and a drawing. The picture above gives an impression of some sleepy little branch line, but it turns out that it became a vital link in the mighty Norte system, through very mountainous terrain.

 

Theres sufficient information there, Don, but it’s wide gauge, needing another line, and oh, I dunno…

 

Oh, and here’s a link to the blog that Eric was using, now to settle down and examine it further. I’m a bit worried about the author, looks like he’s been eating too many crisps whilst watching the football.

 

https://compartirconocimientos.com/juan-peris-torner/

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Northroader

[burgundy]

The book, for which @Northroader has provided a link, is a fascinating find. It shows the subsequent loco purchases of the Isabel II railway, some of which looked like this and were built by the Société de Saint-Léonard of Belgium in 1864.

For comparison, the neighbouring Tudela and Bilbao railway had been operating Beyer Peacock locomotives, delivered in 1863, which looked like this (image from Juan Peris Torner's blog) and are generally credited with being the forerunners of the Metropolitan tanks. 

Meanwhile, J C Craven had produced this loco at Brighton works in 1859.

(Image from Bradley Locos of the LB&SCR Vol 1)

It would be fascinating to understand whether there was any cross-fertilisation of ideas!

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Northroader]

HANDY GUIDE TO LAYOUT DESIGN:

 

a)

 

b)

 

c)

 

that’s all you need - KEEP IT SIMPLE !
 

[Compound2632]

Huh. Unimpressed. Try Maxstoke:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 67482.] 

 

A pretty good match for your first photo - gable-ended station house, platform, level crossing.

 

I confess there was a siding too, and a pair of signals:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 67483.]

 

But with a one-coach train once a day each way, an ideal minimalist Midland layout!

[Northroader]

Not in line with the thread title, as it’s this side of Dover,  although with the imminent move to reduced space habitation, I’m coming into thinking of using b), with a removable high platform, so a D299 wagon might occasionally appear in the siding.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Northroader

[Ian Morgan]

Simple?

 

Arnbach, near Munich, before electrification:

 

Niederroth

 

[Northroader]

JOHN HARDY.

 

In some corner of a foreign field…

 

https://www.evang-friedhof.at/matzleinsdorf/john-hardy/
 

You’ll see he was born in Newcastle on Tyne, went out to Sotteville works with Buddicom, then on to Austria. With his son John George Hardy they developed the automatic vacuum brake for the railways, being involved with railway engineering in Austria. The Austrian Railways used vacuum brakes for quite a long time, one of the distinctive features being the silencers on the ejector exhaust. (The conical thingies on the cab roof)

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Northroader

[burgundy]

One of those short, model-genic trains of the South Eastern Railway....

 

.... of Portugal (or the Companhia dos Caminhos de Ferro do Sueste).

The photo is the work of Mário Novais and I wonder if it is not more modern than it appears. The loco, Dom Luis, is preserved; did it perhaps get a final outing before going into the museum? It was built by Beyer Peacock in 1862 and was delivered to European gauge, which was interpreted on the Portuguese South Eastern as 1440 mm. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Northroader]

CAMINHOS DE FERRO DO ESTADO.
 

Agreed, Eric, a more modern photograph than the subject matter. For a comparison, here’s an old photo of a similar subject:

 

Both pictures are for the Portuguese State system, the Estado, which had two divisions, the Minho-Douro serving the north of the country beyond the Douro, and the Sul y SulEste serving the south beyond the Tagus. They were built by the state as serving a railway need in the poorer quarters of the country. The richer central belt between Lisbon and Porto was served by the Compania Real C.F. Portugueses, a private company, (the “Real” getting dropped after the 1910 revolution) Eventally this company was persuaded to work the state lines, and in the fullness of time was nationalised. Historical link for dates here:

 

https://www.cp.pt/institucional/en/railway-culture/cp-history/time-line

 

Mario Novais’s picture is of  Beyer Peacock single driver for the SSE, preserved in modern times, the picture above is for a MD Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T, (just like the Isle of Wight) on a Braga branch train at Nine junction station. There are interesting parallels with the Netherlands, the State Railways there also  shopping at Beyer Peacock for their locos, and both the Portuguese and Netherlands State lines getting a beautiful collection of elegant locos as a result. (There’s some nice subjects in the Mario Novais portfolio I’d like to come back to, if I can work out how to download them)

 

You might have spotted a desire on this thread to attempt a little bit of 5’6” modelling, under the “São Lucas” brand, this has taken a bit of a knock with the downsizing to a small bungalow, but maybe there could be one of them “Mosslanda” shelves above the workbench?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

Looking at the train in that file, first off there’s a fourgon, rather plain in that there’s no birdcage lookout, which you’d expect, but nice and simple. There’s no indication of whether it’s originally CP or Estado, but hey, it’s nineteenth century Portuguese.

 

 

 Next, there’s a real treasure, a four wheeler tricomposite, complete with a brakeman’s guerite on one end. The compartments are picked out in individual colours to match the class, like French and German practice. You may spot it’s all vac. braked

 

Now, with just these two vehicles, you have the makings of a very nice branch line train, maybe headed with a Fairbairn single driver tank engine?
 

well, damn me…..

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

There’s an inventario, which looks to be a work in progress, containing the tricomposite:

 

https://inventario.portugalferroviario.net/viajeros/series.php?id=116

 

This shows it to be one of ten vehicles, ABC6f 201-210, built by Societe Industrielle Suisse, SIG in 1887/8.

it’s one of the entries in the “antigas” section, which is the late 19th century stuff.

Goods vehicles? Well, the “O Guarda Freio” website has a section “Album de Vagoes”, with a selection of diagrams, mainly long bodied  20th century jobs, but there’s also some older short body types, with or without brakeman's cabins, and being diagrams giving the numbers, including pre-UIC.

https://guardafreio.blogspot.com/2018/09/album-vagoes-cp-carga-outubro-2011.html

 

Some of these have managed to get preserved in the museo at Entroncamento:

 

 

One Portuguese speciality were these, an open frame wagon, with chain doors, one appearing in Novais’s collection:
 

 

They look to be intended for high volume, low density traffic. Two examples could be bales of bark from cork oaks, or empty wine casks. I think the fresh wine came from the vineyards in casks, which were emptied into other casks for maturing and so on in Porto, the empty casks getting returned, although all I really know of Port processing is uncorking and pouring some into a glass…

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Northroader