The Night Mail

[Willie Whizz]

41 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

…

 

But what price health? There seems an incredible reluctance to pay for medical & dental care amongst the British, even when they can afford to do so. It seems that many would rather wait in pain, slowly deteriorating rather than fork out for treatment.
 

…

 

But at least it’s free…..

 

…

The “reluctance to pay” is in good measure, I think, precisely because the original promise was that it would indeed be “free”, and that promise was soon broken, and the resentment has passed down the generations even though we no longer quite recall why. 
 

And of course because it never was “free” in the first place - only “free at point of use”. Every taxpayer pays for the NHS, including the missing elements over and above the dentists’ fees, not just for themselves but for those who cannot pay. So we feel, consciously or subconsciously, that we have “paid” already.
 

And if you go private, there is no tax rebate despite you saving the NHS the cost of pretty much everything except A&E services. 

[Dave Hunt]

I have a railway modelling friend who retired from his dental practice a few years ago. Throughout his career he treated only NHS patients and says that a dentist who does as he did can make a very good living without resorting to private practice, although taking on some private patients is understandable. In his opinion, dentists who do only private work are simply greedy.

 

Dave 

[Flanged Wheel]

No idea if this is still true but when I was serving in the old aircraft carriers, the best paid person on board was the Dental Officer. The Captain came in at fourth (behind the Doc and the Bish)!

[polybear]

8 minutes ago, Flanged Wheel said:

No idea if this is still true but when I was serving in the old aircraft carriers, the best paid person on board was the Dental Officer. The Captain came in at fourth (behind the Doc and the Bish)!

 

Not sure if this is correct, but many years ago when "The Great Empire" that employed a Certain Bear had a PROPER Occy Health Dept. (now it's just a litigation avoidance dept.) the Doc in charge was an ex. RN Surgeon General (I did hear he played a pretty significant role in the Falklands War - in charge of Casualty Medivac?); rumour has it the rank is the highest paid in the RN?

[Dave Hunt]

The Dental Officers on RAF stations certainly got more dosh than I did.

 

Dave

[Willie Whizz]

There is a price to pay for that relatively high income Dentists enjoy though, it seems.

 

Apparently a study in 2011 found that 7.18% of dentists commit suicide compare to the general population of 0.42%, making it over 17 times more likely that a dentists will commit suicide.

 

I'm not perhaps the World's biggest fan of the medical profession in general, it's true, but statistics like that do give you pause for thought ...

[Steamport Southport]

56 minutes ago, Flanged Wheel said:

No idea if this is still true but when I was serving in the old aircraft carriers, the best paid person on board was the Dental Officer. The Captain came in at fourth (behind the Doc and the Bish)!

 

No wonder the Padre in The Navy Lark always seemed so cheerful!

 

 

[iL Dottore]

2 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

The “reluctance to pay” is in good measure, I think, precisely because the original promise was that it would indeed be “free”, and that promise was soon broken, and the resentment has passed down the generations even though we no longer quite recall why. 
 

And of course because it never was “free” in the first place - only “free at point of use”. Every taxpayer pays for the NHS, including the missing elements over and above the dentists’ fees, not just for themselves but for those who cannot pay. So we feel, consciously or subconsciously, that we have “paid” already.
 

And if you go private, there is no tax rebate despite you saving the NHS the cost of pretty much everything except A&E services. 

Fair points. But if you can pay, why suffer in pain with the prospect of worse outcomes when you finally do get seen (and - possibly - treated) in order to prove a political point.

 

I am so glad that I am in Switzerland (I sat down and calculated that adding the yearly cost of the Krankenkasse Health Insurance to my yearly tax bill, the total I am paying - in percent of income - just slightly less than I would in taxes alone in the UK. But my KK premiums don't go into a general pot, they are ring fenced for healthcare).

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, Willie Whizz said:

Apparently a study in 2011 found that 7.18% of dentists commit suicide compare to the general population of 0.42%, making it over 17 times more likely that a dentists will commit suicide.

 

Aren't farmers the highest category of suicides?

 

Dave

[Canal Digger]

4 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

6 hours ago, Hroth said:

After the introduction of FREE NHS dental treatment, there was a flood of men and women wanting complete extractions and full dentures. 

Isn’t it (wasn’t it?) against the dentists code of ethics to remove perfectly healthy teeth? I don’t see that as being acceptable dental practice in many other countries.

From what I have read (sorry can't supply ref) calling them  Dentists would have a bit of an overstatement, more like barbers with a sideline in tooth extraction. As in Sweeny Todd but not to the extent of the pies!

[DenysW]

12 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

the aftermath of our grandchildren's latest visit:  They have left Nyda with a cold.

HH: Please read up on the concept of the "Disease Vector"

 

Also please do not forget that they are disease vectors even after the age of obvious snot-candles (phrase learned from #1 daughter re her/our rug rats.)

[Dave Hunt]

Son and rugrats now departed and no damage to DH - apart from the eardrums of course. I must see if we can have them fitted with volume control.

 

Dave

[Dave Hunt]

Jill is now watching Casualty so I’ve sloped off to bed for a bit of a read and some early shuteye.

 

Night night

 

Dave

[AndyID]

7 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

Isn’t it (wasn’t it?) against the dentists code of ethics to remove perfectly healthy teeth? I don’t see that as being acceptable dental practice in many other countries.

But what price health? There seems an incredible reluctance to pay for medical & dental care amongst the British, even when they can afford to do so. It seems that many would rather wait in pain, slowly deteriorating rather than fork out for treatment.
 

My maternal grandfather, a grand old chap (definitely traditional working class who, in the 1930s, went down the mines aged 12 to help feed the family), made a very very apposite comment about the NHS and government services in general. He said “appreciate what they give you, but never ever forget that if they give with the one hand they can (and will) take away with the other”. Wise words indeed.

 

There are a lot of myths about the foundation of the NHS one of which was only the Tories voted against it. Nothing further from the truth, many groups and parties such as the LCC, various health charities and working class benevolent societies (such as the one my Grandfather was involved in) were against the NHS as they feared, quite rightly, that the NHS would come in, take over the clinics and cottage hospitals created by the charities and benevolent societies for their members, run everything from Whitehall whilst arrogantly ignoring and marginalising those who knew the local needs and local concerns.

They had a point.

 

But at least it’s free…..

 

 

 

Here's a sad example of "reluctance to pay". My childhood friend, best man and ski pal lived in Edinburgh. He made a lot of money and had all the toys. Lovely house, expensive cars and a beautiful yacht. He had not been feeling well for about a year and was being treated by a NHS doctor.

 

He was 56 when died of a heart attack. No heart condition was diagnosed prior to his death.

 

Had he shelled out for a better private doctor I'm pretty sure his heart condition would have been diagnosed. Of course, even if it had, he might still have succumbed.

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, Canal Digger said:

From what I have read (sorry can't supply ref) calling them  Dentists would have a bit of an overstatement, more like barbers with a sideline in tooth extraction. As in Sweeny Todd but not to the extent of the pies!

 

This is an amusing romp through the history of false teeth...

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Strange-Story-False-Teeth-Woodforde/dp/071006215X

 

[J. S. Bach]

Night Owl from the Piedmont.

[Northmoor]

6 hours ago, polybear said:

 

Not sure if this is correct, but many years ago when "The Great Empire" that employed a Certain Bear had a PROPER Occy Health Dept. (now it's just a litigation avoidance dept.) the Doc in charge was an ex. RN Surgeon General (I did hear he played a pretty significant role in the Falklands War - in charge of Casualty Medivac?); rumour has it the rank is the highest paid in the RN?

That sounds like Rick Jolly, the only serviceman to have been decorated by both sides after the Falklands Conflict.

[Winslow Boy]

15 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Over here where @Oldddudders and I live,Persil is a very nice garnish that we grow in tubs.

 

Jamie

Well that's foreigners for you. Personnally I put it on Duvet and leave it for an hour but it takes all sorts.

[BR60103]

A note on the Peter Principle.

One of the contributing conditions is the reluctance of upper ranks to admit to having made a mistake in promoting someone to a position they can't handle. So they sit there unless they can be shifted sideways to where they can't do harm.

 When it first came out, everyone at work had candidates for examples of the principle.

 

 

[rockershovel]

14 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

The “reluctance to pay” is in good measure, I think, precisely because the original promise was that it would indeed be “free”, and that promise was soon broken, and the resentment has passed down the generations even though we no longer quite recall why. 
 

And of course because it never was “free” in the first place - only “free at point of use”. Every taxpayer pays for the NHS, including the missing elements over and above the dentists’ fees, not just for themselves but for those who cannot pay. So we feel, consciously or subconsciously, that we have “paid” already.
 

And if you go private, there is no tax rebate despite you saving the NHS the cost of pretty much everything except A&E services. 

The NHS is proverbially "the nearest thing the British have to a religion" and I'd agree with that. The English, particularly are a communitarian people with a strong sense of "fair play" which bears little or no relation to the ideological obsessions of the political class. 

 

The ultimately failed revolution of 1945-8 was based upon equality of opportunity, not outcome. It was based upon the long-term accrual of social capital - a better life for the next generation - and no-one thought that wrong. 

 

It was based upon full employment, for many years. 

 

Regarding the NHS particularly, certain early flaws existed and still do. Particularly, it was believed that it would improve the general health of the nation, and tend to be self-limiting - so much for THAT! That said, it was instrumental in the great disease eradication programmes of the 1950s and 1960s, notably TB and childhood diseases like scarlet fever and diphtheria. 

 

There was no provision for elective surgery except through a GP's referral.

 

There was no provision for the mass provision of palliative and anti-depressant medication which costs so much now. 

 

It certainly wasn't generally seen as an open-access service for all comers. 

 

Over time, it has adapted as the other great avatars of that time failed to adapt. It has become a huge driver for immigration, by its chronic failure to train staff. It has been thoroughly looted by the PFI initiatives of the New Labour era, sonething which was known at the time. It has become a vehicle for institutional capture by the Liberal Left. 

 

All that, and STILL it provides things which I don't care to think how they might otherwise be provided. My good wife has had bilateral knee replacement surgery and lumbar decompression in the last 3 years, with further lumbar treatment to come. I'm glad I don't have THAT on my insurance... does the term "pre existing conditions" mean anything to you? 

[jamie92208]

8 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Son and rugrats now departed and no damage to DH - apart from the eardrums of course. I must see if we can have them fitted with volume control.

 

Dave

Is it possible to fit such controls to wives, asking for a friend. 

 

Jamie

[rockershovel]

18 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Re dentures, before the NHS "working class" people, especially women, would have a trip to the dentists as their 21st birthday present, to have all their teeth removed and a full set of shiny new dentures fitted.  To be fair, by time they were 21, their teeth might be rotting away already, preventative dental treatment not being a normal procedure for children pre-NHS. It saved a lot of continuing pain and occasional dental visits.

 

After the introduction of FREE NHS dental treatment, there was a flood of men and women wanting complete extractions and full dentures.  Partial dentures were not as popular because vulcanite and then plastic ones were relatively bulky and fragile, and before the introduction of cobalt-chrome, metal dentures were gold and thus rather expensive, even on the NHS.

 

It was this demand for dentures on the NHS that led to charges being introduced for dental treatment, charges that have become more onerous as years have gone by.

 

Where were we?  🤔🤪

 

 

 

My late mother had full dentures by her early 20s at the latest. It wasn't just dental hygiene but poor diet leading to gum deterioration. This was quite common at the time. 

 

My father kept his teeth till his death in his forties, which he attributed to joining the Army at 16 (in 1933) and so, eating a healthy diet in those crucial years. 

 

Amid the current fear-mongering in the press about conscription, it might be worth considering that conscription in the past has tended to produce a rude shock regarding the state of the health of the nation generally. 

 

[Happy Hippo]

14 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

The Dental Officers on RAF stations certainly got more dosh than I did.

 

Dave

Probably because they did something useful.🤣

[polybear]

8 hours ago, Northmoor said:

That sounds like Rick Jolly, the only serviceman to have been decorated by both sides after the Falklands Conflict.

 

Not him; I can't recall his name at present ( @PupCam ?) but it'll come back to me.....

 

10 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Son and rugrats now departed and no damage to DH - apart from the eardrums of course. I must see if we can have them fitted with volume control.

 

Dave

 

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

Is it possible to fit such controls to wives, asking for a friend. 

 

Jamie

 

Wire-locking their gobs shut should work

[Happy Hippo]

2 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Wire-locking their gobs shut should work

Which would require a Dentist!