The Night Mail

[rodent279]

3 hours ago, SM42 said:

I did have an epiphany with Polish and found that thinking in the language you are trying to speak is key. 

This is key to learning any language. Stop translating to English, thinking in English then retranslating. Not easy, but long term it helps.

 

Mrs Rodent (at that point the future Mrs R) and I went for an Xmas break in Amsterdam. It was very cold, so cold that despite being wrapped up, and walking around the city all day, we never warmed up.

The canals had frozen over, a rare event apparently, and there was an ice skating race being run along the canal, which can obviously only happen when they are frozen. The girl behind the bar at the hotel spoke fluent English with a slight accent, like most Dutch do, and I asked her how often the canals froze over. "I don't know", she said, "I'll ask one of my Dutch colleagues". That's odd, I thought, because I'd heard her speaking fluent Dutch earlier.

When she came back, I asked her where she was from. "Sunderland", she said. Turns out she'd been there for about 10 years and had picked up the language well, so much so that she'd developed a slight change in her accent when speaking English, which meant her Sunderland accent wasn't obvious.

Edited December 20, 2021 by rodent279

[Dave Hunt]

I speak (or did speak - it's quite a while since I used it) a reasonable amount of German with, I am told, a slight Westphalian accent, presumably through having lived there when in the RAF. I was once on a night train from Düsseldorf to Munich sitting opposite a lady with whom I had the occasional light conversation and thought, 'What a nice German lady. She realises I'm not German and is speaking a nice, clear non-dialect German for my benefit.' When we got to Munich and she was getting her suitcase I said, in English without thinking, "Let me get that for you." She stopped and said, "Are you English?" It transpired that she was English and that all night she'd been thinking, 'What a nice German man. He realises that I'm not German and is speaking...........'

 

Dave

[Dave Hunt]

Forgot to say in my last post that although we lived in the Netherlands for four years and tried to learn some Dutch we never got very far because as soon as the Dutch people realised we were English they switched into our language. Even our Dutch friends did it all the time even though we told them that we wanted to speak their language.

 

Dave

[rodent279]

2 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Forgot to say in my last post that although we lived in the Netherlands for four years and tried to learn some Dutch we never got very far because as soon as the Dutch people realised we were English they switched into our language. Even our Dutch friends did it all the time even though we told them that we wanted to speak their language.

 

Dave

And that is the biggest problem with being English and trying to speak almost any language.

[Compound2632]

I lived and worked in Paris for a couple of years and so became moderately proficient in French, so long as the conversation stuck to atomic physics. The highlight, though, was the time I ordered "un salad Niçoise" at a café near the Étoile. The waiter said nothing but on returning with my order looked down his nose at me with that special contempt reserved for English mangling the most beautiful and cultured language on Earth and said, with great emphasis on the feminine article, "Une salade Niçoise, monsieur."

[New Haven Neil]

Some friends of mine worked in the Netherlands for quite some time and came to the conclusion that the Dutch spoke English 'because their own language is too bl**dy complicated for them learn properly themselves'.  This from guys who worked all over the world and could get by in many tongues.

 

I have enough trouble with Manx, and failed French at school with honour.  CSE 4 IIRC.  Useless!

[bbishop]

Hated French at school but somehow acquired an O level.  Still haven't a clue what is said.

 

Enjoyed German and am still taking lessons.  I think in English, but my brain thinks "subordinate clause" or "relative clause" so parks the verbs.  Then I reach the end, or so I think, and realise I haven't done the verbs yet.  I'm looking forward to the passive voice next term.

 

Bill

[Dave Hunt]

I have a Dutch friend who was an F104 pilot and we were once together at a NATO fighter meet where everyone was speaking English with occasional forays into German or French but not Dutch. I asked him whether he ever got pi**ed off because no-one else spoke his language whereupon he said, "Ah, you see Dave, the trouble is that Dutch is not so much a language as a throat disease."

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

37 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Forgot to say in my last post that although we lived in the Netherlands for four years and tried to learn some Dutch we never got very far because as soon as the Dutch people realised we were English they switched into our language. Even our Dutch friends did it all the time even though we told them that we wanted to speak their language.

 

Dave

I learned to swear in Flemish after I joined the civilian staff of the Officers mess of British Forces Antwerp at their lunchtime card school.

 

At the local parachute club, I was somewhat of a mascot and would be rolled out and put on show when there were visits from other clubs or the local press.

 

It might have been a bit of  'look what we've got and you haven't', although I suspect the real reason was they just loved me after I turned up in a Wessex helicopter, courtesy of the Royal Navy, and mentioned that it was leaving to fly back to the ship, but was going to be available for one climbing pass over the airfield.......

[Tony_S]

18 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

he trouble is that Dutch is not so much a language as a throat disease."

Matthew was in Belgium visiting some Flemish speaking friends and he commented that he may as well not have bothered to learn Dutch before moving to Utrecht. So his friends said he could do all the talking that day in their trip round various sites and shops. They said no one would think he was Belgian or Dutch (definitely not Dutch, they said he was too polite) but he definitely didn’t sound English when he spoke. They decided he sounded Afrikaans. He wasn’t sure if that was good or bad. Once he started his research in Ireland it was useful to learn Polish. He was fascinated by the grammar. 
English is Aditi’s third language, though I suspect now she finds her childhood vocabulary in Punjabi and Hindi to be somewhat limited. Her father insisted that they only spoke English at home after they settled here.Though to be honest they sometimes spoke three languages in one sentence. Aditi said it depended on how cross her Mum was with her and her sister. 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I lived and worked in Paris for a couple of years and so became moderately proficient in French, so long as the conversation stuck to atomic physics. The highlight, though, was the time I ordered "un salad Niçoise" at a café near the Étoile. The waiter said nothing but on returning with my order looked down his nose at me with that special contempt reserved for English mangling the most beautiful and cultured language on Earth and said, with great emphasis on the feminine article, "Une salade Niçoise, monsieur."

One of the habits I picked up in Africa was to omit the article entirely. Arabic is a "gendered" language, but the "male" gender is the base gender, without gender-specific variations and the other two comprise variations on a theme. They speak French the same way. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by rockershovel

[Northmoor]

I never found languages easy at all; grew up in Wales and while I can often understand the gist of what is being said in Welsh - and was told my pronunciation was very good - never learned to speak any, more's the pity.

French at school was awful; the first year was taught by a French woman, bit of a misery but it was the way it was taught that just put me off completely, learning the importance of correct verb endings before knowing how to ask for something on the menu.  I just mumbled my way through two more years before being able to drop the subject.  German was so much easier, a friendlier teacher and perhaps because its rules are more consistent so I took that to GCSE, but my natural social anxieties meant making mistakes would have been excruciating and I never became confident speaking it.

About 20 years ago my wife and I did "Get by in Italian" evening classes and quite apart from all the useful phrases, the truest thing she ever said was that Italians don't mind you making mistakes in their language, they are just so pleased if you try.  Our two weeks honeymoon in Italy and other subsequent Italian holidays confirmed the truth in this.  For foreign holidays I've always wanted to know, at least,  Hello/Goodbye/Please/Thankyou in the local language because that just seems to be a basic courtesy.

[Winslow Boy]

It is interesting to read the different encounters contributors have had with 'foriners'. Having been taught French at school and also had several visits to the country I'm embarrassed to say that I'm hopeless at speaking it.

 

However strangely enough I'm better at it when its written. I put this down to being slightly dyslexic which I know seems weird but I think its because you have to 'work harder' when you are dyslexic at 'translating' the written word. My mother was horrified at my lack of proficiency at English as she was excellent. It was unfortunate that my dyslexia was only discovered r late in my schooling and i didn't get any support from teachers. Something that now a days would certainly not be allowed and for that I'm extremely grateful as I have several relatives who have benefited.

 

My father had what could be described as a photographic memory as all he had to do was to read it and that was it. This would infuriate my mother as he would literally trot out the answers whereas she would still be having to read it several times in order for it to stick. Having said that once it was in wo betide anybody who disagreed with her version and she was 99% of the time correct.

 

One be nefit from the dyslexia is that I'm very good at map reading and interpretation of drawings or plans. If something is described using words I have difficultly but put it into a drawing and no problems I can quickly understand and extrapolate from it.

[Doncaster Green]

20 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

 "Ah, you see Dave, the trouble is that Dutch is not so much a language as a throat disease."

 

Dave

Exactly what I was told by a Dutchman who thought the official language should be changed to English!

 

When I was at school the language you learnt was chosen for you.  If they believed you had an Oxbridge chance you took Latin.  For possible Civil Servants (senior of course) it was French (the diplomatic language).  And for the rest of us artisan plebs it was German.  Luckily I was absolute c**p at a subject that had the same timetable as French so I was allowed to do two languages.  It helped that my mother was very nearly fluent in French, having worked alongside the French in the Allied Control Commission in Vienna in 1945/46.  In French I can just about get by in a day to day conversation.  My German was a lot better, having spent four years there, but is rusty now.

 I have no other languages apart from two versions of English, 'Establishment' English after 30 years in the Civil Service and English as wot it is spoke like.

 

John

 

[Doncaster Green]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

 

Maybe I'm just turning into Victor Meldrew?

I am of the firm opinion that all English males over the age of 60 are Victor Meldrew, myself included!

 

John

 

[Happy Hippo]

56 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

I have a Dutch friend who was an F104 pilot and we were once together at a NATO fighter meet where everyone was speaking English with occasional forays into German or French but not Dutch. I asked him whether he ever got pi**ed off because no-one else spoke his language whereupon he said, "Ah, you see Dave, the trouble is that Dutch is not so much a language as a throat disease."

 

Dave

Probably why the Belgian dialect is known as Flemish!

[Happy Hippo]

16 minutes ago, Doncaster Green said:

I am of the firm opinion that all English males over the age of 60 are Victor Meldrew, myself included!

 

John

 

I am Welsh and have too much hair.  Will I get in by claiming residency in England?

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

And that is the biggest problem with being English and trying to speak almost any language.

Well, yes. It works easiest in places like Russia where they genuinely can't speak English, but can understand it to some extent. 

[rockershovel]

Agree 100% about thinking in the language. You will never achieve any useful degree of fluency without it.

 

Same goes for being able to read the alphabet, although in my early drilling days I did know a number of old school, AIOC-era tool pushers with a quite fluent command of spoken Farsi and/or Arabic but no command of the written language 

 

Come to that, my maternal grandfather spoke Urdu and at least one other language from his long service (from Gunner to Battery Sergeant Major ) in the Raj but had no written skills. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by rockershovel

[Doncaster Green]

13 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

I am Welsh and have too much hair.  Will I get in by claiming residency in England?

You may claim if you wish, but I would have thought the natural melodiousness of the Welsh voice would make the utterances less believable!  You have to be a really grumpy Home Counties Englishman to carry it off properly.

[rodent279]

German is said to be a bit daunting because it has lots of rules. So does English, but German has rules, and as you'd expect, largely sticks to them. English has rules that seem to be there only to be observed in the breach.

 

I also rather like the way that word order (in some cases) does not matter in German.

"The dog bit the postman" in English on really makes sense that way round (unless the postie is a bit odd).

"Der Hund biss den Brieftrager" means the same thing as "Den Brieftrager biss der Hund".

 

It's der/die/das that I never really mastered.

[rodent279]

10 minutes ago, Doncaster Green said:

You may claim if you wish, but I would have thought the natural melodiousness of the Welsh voice would make the utterances less believable!  You have to be a really grumpy Home Counties Englishman to carry it off properly.

Wasn't Victor Scottish?

[Doncaster Green]

4 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Wasn't Victor Scottish?

Possibly so, but with such a beautifully English view of the world.

[SM42]

I find written Polish easier than speaking. I put this down to having more time to work out what is being said and I don't have to respond. 

 

It is rather strange that I am grappling with Polish. 

 

Many years ago I had a school friend who was of Polish descent and would speak with his parents in Polish as it was easier for them all. I use to stand there wondering when we would be heading out to the pub and thinking " I'm going to learn this language one day"

Who'd have thought, 18 years later I  would be.  

 

I hate getting it wrong ( happens a lot, especially if the number 2 is involved)  and I have spawned many family  in jokes  over my mangling of Polish. 

 The ribbing used to irritate me and sometimes  still does but I try to let it slide and join in or get a pre emptive strike in. 

 

My FiL is very good at speaking slowly and trying to help.me understand and we can get a reasonable conversation together with the use of bad grammar and some pointing, but we do sometimes have to admit defeat and wait for Mrs SM42 to appear on the scene.

 

I'm also managing to get by in the model shop where  I can understand about 10% and fill in the blanks as I am machine gunned with conjugated verbs,  nouns and case endings.

 

What Mrs SM42's friends find most amusing is that at SM42 Towers, the Pole speaks English  and the Anglik responds po polsku. 

 

I also find it quite amusing to earwig Polish conversations in the street or supermarket. You do hear some interesting stuff when people think they are on safe ground language wise.

 

Andy

Edited December 20, 2021 by SM42
Struggling with English

[PhilJ W]

The English language originated in Northern Holland and was brought to the British Isles by the Anglo-Saxons.