The Night Mail

[jamie92208]

17 minutes ago, laurenceb said:

A real problem with elf n safety is that it is misused by those who want to stop others from doing something that "they" don't think should be allowed. The Health & Safety Executive have a real problem with these types as  it dilutes the message.

A lot of things that are allegedly banned are due to pressure from insurance companies but get blamed on Elfand Safety. Conkers is onevof thecurban myths.

 

Jamie

[Oldddudders]

I think most of the modern bolt-ons to H&S legislation techniques stem from Piper Alpha.

[Winslow Boy]

I think the major reason that ealth & afty is invoked is to provide 'legitimation' of an instruction or request.

 

Take for example a sign saying you shouldn't trespass. In days of loir it would say if you trespassed you'd get fined or in some cases shot. Well people would ignore that and not getting fined or shot continue to do so. But if you say there's bloody great big drop/railway/ electricity pylon and they get squashed/smattered/fried they can't turn round and say well you didn't tell us that as we wouldn't have entered if you had.

 

It's like saying don't swim so that you won't drown. 

[Happy Hippo]

I was always under the illusion that the real drive on Health and Safety was to prevent unnecessary injuries and fatalities in Heavy industries and the building trade rather than preventing a particularly stupid individual accidentally fixing his manhood to his desk using the office stapler!

[polybear]

6 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

I was always under the illusion that the real drive on Health and Safety was to prevent unnecessary injuries and fatalities in Heavy industries and the building trade rather than preventing a particularly stupid individual accidentally fixing his manhood to his desk using the office stapler!

 

In the 1990's (I think) a certain company in Stevenage had a couple of employees who were "into" whacking nails thru' a "certain" part of their anatomies .  Somehow the national press got wind of it - it seems the headlines began with something along the lines of "Rocket Scientists....." 

I heard the company got shot of them PDQ - and at least one of them did jail time cos' they had a new recruit - who was under 21 (I think) and that made it a legal no-no.

There's weird, and there's WEIRD.

 

 

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Indeed, there generally isn't a problem with health and safety legislation, only that it is often implemented by people who don't understand it properly or the calculation of risk, so assume they have to make things 100% safe by abandoning the activity altogether, instead of managing the risk.

It was a real eye opener for me when the BBC required H&S training for all production staff (following the Michael Lush tragedy on Noel Edmonds' show in 1986) It wasn't about not doing things but about identifying risks and then looking at mitigations. News crews working in war zones do risk assesments (they also have specialist training), and the outcomes don't mean never going into war zones, but even having to consider the risks to a reporter standing on the side of a pavement in the High Street for a perfectly normal piece to camera was revealing. 

 

To stop production departments from backsliding (which they certainly would have done "Oh our directors are far too busy to do any training until we finish the current series") Bill Cotton jnr. the then head of BBC TV, simply gave a deadline date after which producers and directors who hadn't done the training weren't allowed to do their jobs in the studio or on location. We all got the training well before the deadline!

I still have my copy of the BBC H&S manual and it's very good and, though some of it is out of date, it is still very relevant.

[Happy Hippo]

I didn't visit the Penderyn shop in Llandudno as I had more pressing things to do.

 

However, I am now the owner of a new tracksaw with enough track to ensure that an 8 x 4 sheet of ply can be sliced up quite easily.

 

Why monkey around with a straight bit of timber and clamps trying to get them to a line to which you have applied an offset to take your ordinary circular saw when you can just clamp the track to the line you want and cut?

 

I worked this out the other day when I was cutting the backscenes plates for Pantmawr North with my friend Gordon.

 

'We could do this much easier with a track saw,' said I.

 

I'll have to go and try it tomorrow...

 

Certainly much easier when you are operating on your own.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Happy Hippo

[Tony_S]

6 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Why monkey around with a straight bit of timber and clamps trying to get them to a line to which you have applied an offset to take your ordinary circular saw when you can just clamp the track to the line you want and cut?

For a while I have been getting ads for tracksaws and their tracks on Facebook. I actually wondered why they thought I needed one when I could just fix a straight bit of timber to the board… I suspect I don’t do as much sawing as other people though. 

[Happy Hippo]

9 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

For a while I have been getting ads for tracksaws and their tracks on Facebook. I actually wondered why they thought I needed one when I could just fix a straight bit of timber to the board… I suspect I don’t do as much sawing as other people though. 

It's something to do with getting a straight piece of timber to start off with.  If it's not been around for about 30 years, it's probably bent in more than one plane.

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, laurenceb said:

A real problem with elf n safety is that it is misused by those who want to stop others from doing something that "they" don't think should be allowed. The Health & Safety Executive have a real problem with these types as  it dilutes the message.

Quite so. Having been trained in H&S my stock answer to that sort of thing is "Where is your risk assessment stating that?" or "Show me the relevant H&S legislation." Some try to bluff it out, its then I tell them I have undertaken H&S training. There used to be a woman in the Southend Pier Museum who would stop people taking photographs because in her words "It was not allowed because of H&S." I took her to task over this and asked to see the risk assessment which she said I couldn't see because it was confidential. I then pointed out that as they charged an admission fee it was a legal requirement to have it on public display (which it is). 

[Tony_S]

7 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Where is your risk assessment stating that?

Probably destroyed in one of the fires or swept away when a ship crashed through….

[Winslow Boy]

43 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

It's something to do with getting a straight piece of timber to start off with.  If it's not been around for about 30 years, it's probably bent in more than one plane.

 

Not quite sure that only the timber will be warped after thirty years.

[Happy Hippo]

3 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Quite so. Having been trained in H&S my stock answer to that sort of thing is "Where is your risk assessment stating that?" or "Show me the relevant H&S legislation." Some try to bluff it out, its then I tell them I have undertaken H&S training. There used to be a woman in the Southend Pier Museum who would stop people taking photographs because in her words "It was not allowed because of H&S." I took her to task over this and asked to see the risk assessment which she said I couldn't see because it was confidential. I then pointed out that as they charged an admission fee it was a legal requirement to have it on public display (which it is). 

We always carry out a risk assessment when we set up a range at an Agricultural show.

 

Of all the shows we have been to, we have only ever been asked for one at Machen.

 

The H&S lady who looked at it, was most complimentary about it and asked if we would send her a copy so she could use it as a real example for courses she ran.

 

Being good eggs, we always carried a spare so she went away happy.

 

As you so rightly say, it's not about negating risk but mitigating the risk to a manageable level. 

[polybear]

2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

It was a real eye opener for me when the BBC required H&S training for all production staff (following the Michael Lush tragedy on Noel Edmonds' show in 1986)

 

I just googled it - the penalty the BBC received is a crime in itself (£2K fine)

 

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

However, I am now the owner of a new tracksaw with enough track to ensure that an 8 x 4 sheet of ply can be sliced up quite easily.

 

 

Bear jealous .....

 

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

It's something to do with getting a straight piece of timber to start off with.  If it's not been around for about 30 years, it's probably bent in more than one plane.

 

I cheat and use one of these:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/forge-steel-feather-edge-72/52912

Not an item to get delivered though, judging by the reviews - you need to go and collect it, otherwise it might just arrive shaped like a banana.

[Dave Hunt]

22 hours ago, PupCam said:

 

Probably happened following many conflicts and probably because the majority of people involved in "traditional" conflicts are, on the whole, decent people irrespective of which side they are on.........A classic example of befriending after the event was Douglas Bader and Adolf Galland.

 

Galland was also a great friend of Bob Stanford-Tuck. When I was on 92 Squadron (Phantoms) in Germany we had a celebratory weekend for the Squadron's 60th anniversary with S-T as guest of honour and he brought with him Galland. At the dining in night that was part of the celebrations S-T made a speech, after which there was much vocalisation from the aircrew for Galland to speak so the Boss invited him to do so. He gave a really good few minutes starting with, "I am honoured gentlemen. The last time I had a formal meeting with 92 Squadron it was through a gunsight....." Brought the house down. The next day they came over to the Squadron main site and the Boss asked me to show Herr General a Phantom cockpit. He was a really nice guy. A good memory.

 

Dave

[simontaylor484]

I have had a track saw or plunge saw for about 3 or 4 years. It is a really useful bit of kit. 

Mine is a Screwfix Titan jobble it came with 2 track panels that screw together.

 

[Tony_S]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

he H&S lady who looked at it, was most complimentary about it and asked if we would send her a copy so she could use it as a real example for courses she ran.

 

Aditi was on an in service course at her last college, not health and safety but security. Anyway the person running the course put up an example of how an incident should be reported. Lots of comments from staff about using fictitious examples, having unrealistic expectations etc. The tutor said it was real and had been submitted by someone in the room and they should all  aspire to that standard. Aditi was keeping quiet as she recognised her report, but someone said “it’s Aditi isn’t it?”

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

It was a real eye opener for me when the BBC required H&S training for all production staff (following the Michael Lush tragedy on Noel Edmonds' show in 1986)

IIRC the so-called 'safety expert' employed by the BBC on that program turned out to be nothing of the sort. It was down to the BBC to have checked his credentials which they obviously didn't.

[AndyID]

Received a roll of 0.018" music wire today and the straightening method works on it too. The only snag is I had to drill the holes with a #75 drill. It was softwood and much thinner than the teak. The straightened wire was inserted into 1mm bore PTFE tube and it transmits force with very little friction even through a 180 degree U bend.

 

The reason I'm playing with this stuff is because I want to drive all my points from the edge of the layout either mechanically or with servos. My knees and back protest too much now if I have to crawl under the layout.

[AndyID]

16 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

IIRC the so-called 'safety expert' employed by the BBC on that program turned out to be nothing of the sort. It was down to the BBC to have checked his credentials which they obviously didn't.

 

I wasn't aware of the incident as it was after we moved to Arizona. I found a summary of what happened on Wikipedia.

[iL Dottore]

A number of interesting posts over the last couple of days.

In regards to asymmetric warfare, as mentioned by a number of posters, I think that this really started back in World War II by two things: firstly, by the encouragement by the allies of various partisan groups across Europe. The Nazi response to this, was as you would expect, brutal. The problem with asymmetric warfare is that it is the civilian population that bears the brunt of the formal military reprisals not the partisans/freedom fighters/guerillas. Secondly, World War II was arguably the first ideological war with four competing ideologies: Nazism/fascism, Stalinist communism, bushido and democratic capitalism. And as we have seen since, these ideologies (with possibly the exception of a democratic capitalism) thrive on demonising the enemy; resulting in such things as the infamous commissar order issued by Hitler. Combine the two: armed hostile civilians and an “the enemy is evil” mindset and you get to where we are today….

 

H&S is an interesting topic. An incredibly useful tool that, like so many things, has been perverted by the unscrupulous at one end of the spectrum (we don’t need H&S - it’s too expensive) and by the lazy, incompetent and malicious at the other (like the woman saying H&S prohibits photography).
 

And on a final note: I have been watching a lot of YouTube woodworking videos as of late - the ones showing you how to build equipment - like an oscillating drum sander - for your workshop. Starting with various bits of wood, an old motor or two a few other bits of metal work, these videos show you how to do it. Problem is, most of the professional looking projects are done in a well equipped workshop (like the one which built a heavy workshop table using a workshop table...), In many other hobbies this isn’t the case: that you need a professional set up/gear to get professional results.

 

In this regard, I am incredibly jealous and envious of our American cousins. Not only do they have the space (often a very large garage) in which to set up a decent sized and decently equipped workshop, but they also have easy access to relatively inexpensive high-quality tools of all kinds. I wish I had that sort of readily available equipment and material. Trying to find an oscillating drum sander, for example, in a local mass-market DIY store is a futile exercise. 
 

And as for ordering anything off Amazon: unlike Amazon in the US, Amazon.de and Amazon.it (whch are the ones I now use as Amazon.co.uk has become prohibitively expensive with the shipping) are full of no-name items of undeterminable and unknown quality made in the PRC. Taking a chance on a no name article from the PRC is a reasonable gamble when the cost of the item is not prohibitive (I recently took a punt on some widebodied Fountain pens made in the PRC and I am very happy with them), but not when you’re looking at a few hundred francs….

Edited January 6, 2022 by iL Dottore
Missing words!

[jamie92208]

I managed to build a heavy workshop table with a power drill and hand tools.  It certainly does the job and there is no way that I can move it now it is assembled.  Chopping mortices took some time but they do the job.  Fortunately I do have a reasonably  sized shed.

 

The bench now has a large vice, a drill press and a morticer on it.  Just one problem, the law of cluttered surfaces has swung into action.  For those that weren't paying attention,  that law states that no surface stays clear for more than 5 minutes.

 

Jamie

Edited January 6, 2022 by jamie92208

[polybear]

2 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

In this regard, I am incredibly jealous and envious of our American cousins. Not only do they have the space (often a very large garage) in which to set up a decent sized and decently equipped workshop, but they also have easy access to relatively inexpensive high-quality tools of all kinds. I wish I had that sort of readily available equipment and material. 

 

Such as "Norm's Workshop"......

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/interviews/great-woodshops-yankees-shop-true-to-name/

[Happy Hippo]

3 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I managed to build a heavy workshop table with a power drill and hand tools.  It certainly does the job and there is no way that I can move it now it is assembled.  Chopping mortices took some time but they do the job.  Fortunately I do have a reasonably  sized shed.

 

The bench now has a large vice, a drill press and a morticer on it.  Just one problem, the law of cluttered surfaces has swung into action.  For those that weren't paying attention,  that law states that no surface stays clear for more than 5 minutes.

 

Jamie

Are you sure it's that long?

 

[rodent279]

11 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Are you sure it's that long?

 

I think it's an inverse law. The time in seconds that it remains uncluttered is inversely proportional to the surface area in square metres.