Boeing 737 Max - back in service

[rob D2]

38 minutes ago, mezzoman253 said:

More on the 737 Max saga from the Beeb.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55751150

 

Rob

Sounds like he has an axe to grind - the MCAS issue has nothing to do with factory build quality 

[Jeff Smith]

3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Sounds like he has an axe to grind - the MCAS issue has nothing to do with factory build quality 

I tend to agree.  The system design was faulty in only using a single signal source (sensor) for what should have been categorized as a flight critical system and therefore should have had at least two or more sensor inputs.  Build quality issues would normally be discovered during final quality tests, but these would not necessarily uncover hidden system design flaws.

[APOLLO]

This is interesting. Found link on an aviation site. Bit frightening also, and not too technical. Just read it, glad I'm not flying any new Boeing soon.

 

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/ec12e28d-4844-4df3-a140-ca706a04c0f7/downloads/737 MAX - Still Not Fixed.pdf?ver=1611532831723

 

Edited to add  -  Link above from here (which was in a BBC clip)

 

https://edpierson.com/

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by APOLLO
additional info

[Jeff Smith]

A fascinating insight.  I can relate to the sensor investigation re epoxy and differing expansion rates for adjacent materials having worked in aerospace for 50 years and seen a few of these types of problems and the effort put in to solving them.  Luckily record keeping is usually good enough to track down faulty batches, but unfortunately sometimes faults are not revealed until an incident or accident.

[kevinlms]

16 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Sounds like he has an axe to grind - the MCAS issue has nothing to do with factory build quality 

Rightly or wrongly, the world isn't exactly filled with alternatives of manufacturers of wide bodied passenger jets.

There is no real choice, but for Boeing to get their act together. Hopefully they have and I see no reason to believe that they have not.

They are simply too big to fail.

[Barry O]

6 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Rightly or wrongly, the world isn't exactly filled with alternatives of manufacturers of wide bodied passenger jets.

There is no real choice, but for Boeing to get their act together. Hopefully they have and I see no reason to believe that they have not.

They are simply too big to fail.

No company is too big to fail. Quality issues and design issues would indicate Boeing lost the plot a while ago.... 

 

Baz

[rob D2]

Thing is, Boeing can’t fail, and they won’t be allowed to .

 

Without ongoing product support from the manufacturer the aircraft will be unable to fly - nobody to issue safety bulletins,updates etc that are required for continuing airworthiness to be approved by the relevant authority .

 

This was what killed Concorde and possibly the Vulcan too....once the manufacturer pulls support ifs game over .

[Barry O]

They must be offering huge discounts to airlines... mind you, they do have a lot of aircrfat waiting to be delivered. Perhaps they could have done some more QC checks while they were parked up..

 

Baz

[APOLLO]

Covid is killing the world's airlines and can't be doing either Boeing or Airbus any good either. Both will survive, but in a different form.

 

Brit15

[Legend]

Boeing will never be allowed to fail . Too important to the US defence . 

 

The link that Apollo posts to the report / letter posted by Ed Pierson is truly disturbing .  I don't think you can dismiss this simply as sour grapes .   13 other issues in the period between crashes  (statistically abnormal), the pressure workers and the plant would have been under building these aircraft , the declining factory statistics . These are all warning flags .   A fortunate result of Covid is that all business travel has been knocked on the head for me  . And I have to say after reading a report like that I'm glad !

 

I think something has gone badly wrong in the Boeing Company ethos in the rush to compete with Airbus and earn ever increasing returns for shareholders .  From a proud engineering company to a cash multiplier .  

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Barry O said:

No company is too big to fail. Quality issues and design issues would indicate Boeing lost the plot a while ago.... 

 

Baz

 

Whether they could be allowed to fail depends on how important they are to the country's economy & therefore the government.

Boeing ceasing to exist would affect the whole airline industry worldwide; operators, airports & even the demand for oil.

I believe they have been rescued by the government before.

Airlines can't just go & buy an Airbus. If you had the cash for a brand new A320, you would have to order it several years in advance. That is the way the industry works & it would take several years to step up production.

[Reorte]

If something is seen as too big to fail should it be a private company?

[rob D2]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Covid is killing the world's airlines and can't be doing either Boeing or Airbus any good either. Both will survive, but in a different form.

 

Brit15

The idea of a two week quarantine on landing from your summer holiday , having used all your leave to go on it,,,,should finish off the short haul market.

 

In the governments complete focus on covid , they seem to have forgotten about having an economy left when everyone is immunised.

 

there MUST be a better way to ensure people aren’t bringing it in, and why the hell wasn’t this done at the start 

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

If something is seen as too big to fail should it be a private company?

 A valid question but I fear the answer may be too far into the subject of politics.

[Jeff Smith]

Large companies like Boeing are usually made up of several divisions, ie Boeing Commercial, Boeing Military, etc. and can be separated and sold off or disolved.  Boeing Military is obviously critical to the US defence industry and is, I understand, doing well.

[Budgie]

3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

there MUST be a better way to ensure people aren’t bringing it in, and why the hell wasn’t this done at the start 

 

There is an obvious answer to this question, but I'm likely to get banned if I bring politics into our discussions here.

[cunningduck]

3 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Large companies like Boeing are usually made up of several divisions, ie Boeing Commercial, Boeing Military, etc. and can be separated and sold off or disolved.  Boeing Military is obviously critical to the US defence industry and is, I understand, doing well.

They are intrinsically linked though, the new anti-Submarine planes the RAF has procured to do Navy work are built on 737 airframes, so there would be a significant effect on the military company of the civilian company ceasing to exist.  

[APOLLO]

6 hours ago, Legend said:

I think something has gone badly wrong in the Boeing Company ethos in the rush to compete with Airbus and earn ever increasing returns for shareholders .  From a proud engineering company to a cash multiplier .  

 

The rot set in when Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas.

 

An interesting read.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/

 

Just google boeing mcdonnell douglas merger culture and  boeing toxic culture   for more - lots more, hair raising stuff.

 

"If the Wings ain't built in Chester, and the engines aren't made in Derby, I'm not going" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[rob D2]

9 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

The rot set in when Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas.

 

An interesting read.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/

 

Just google boeing mcdonnell douglas merger culture and  boeing toxic culture   for more - lots more, hair raising stuff.

 

"If the Wings ain't built in Chester, and the engines aren't made in Derby, I'm not going" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

I’ve read that before and it’s very interesting .

I used to be a RR fan too. Spent ten years with the RB211.

 

However 8 years of the excretable Trent 1000, mean I’d rather use engines from any other source in future - if I fly again .

 

Massively contributed to my companies financial woes and you know it’s not great when you end up with a flowchart for what to do with it in inclement weather.

[Oldddudders]

28 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Spent ten years with the RB211.

Did you know that the man behind Exactoscale had once worked on early RB211 development? 

[APOLLO]

I feel a bit sorry for Boeing - flown in many of their products over the years, and a ride in a 747 over to Thailand was always a pleasure, especially with Qantas, "would you like champagne with your breakfast sir ? " - and that was in economy. I like the A380 also, sadly most of those are grounded due to Covid and rumour is that many won't fly again (economic reasons).

 

Ah well - it was good while it lasted. Can't even have a day out in Southport now !!

 

Brit15

[Legend]

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

I feel a bit sorry for Boeing - flown in many of their products over the years, and a ride in a 747 over to Thailand was always a pleasure, especially with Qantas, "would you like champagne with your breakfast sir ? " - and that was in economy. I like the A380 also, sadly most of those are grounded due to Covid and rumour is that many won't fly again (economic reasons).

 

Ah well - it was good while it lasted. Can't even have a day out in Southport now !!

 

Brit15

 Do you think we will think back on these years as the good old days. When we got on a 4 engined airliner to takes us on our holidays . I have a feeling things have changed permanently . Not just the phasing out of 747s and A380s , but I wonder if international travel will ever recover to 2019 levels . 

[rob D2]

13 minutes ago, Legend said:

 Do you think we will think back on these years as the good old days. When we got on a 4 engined airliner to takes us on our holidays . I have a feeling things have changed permanently . Not just the phasing out of 747s and A380s , but I wonder if international travel will ever recover to 2019 levels . 

I think it will, but you’ll never see four engines back, the economics won’t ever stack up again and it’s unnecessary with , er, modern engine reliability 

[APOLLO]

24 minutes ago, Legend said:

 Do you think we will think back on these years as the good old days. When we got on a 4 engined airliner to takes us on our holidays . I have a feeling things have changed permanently . Not just the phasing out of 747s and A380s , but I wonder if international travel will ever recover to 2019 levels . 

 

I have a (sad) feeling that I may never travel on an airliner again, or at least for another year or two.. I do hope that I am wrong. I have family & friends in Thailand, don't know when it will be possible to travel there, even for my Wife who is Thai.

 

Covid rules in different countries changing almost weekly, and no signs or respite, anywhere.

Need to jump through hoops to get travel permits etc (Thailand Australia USA and many others). Some countries are impossible ATM.

Insurance, especially for the elderly, and Covid clauses they will no doubt contain (an unknown at the moment)

We in the UK may mostly get jabbed this year but many countries, holiday destinations will not. Will quarantine here / there continue ?

Will new Covid variants evolve, and will the jabs we have work ?

The push for decarbonisation / demonising of flying (and driving and gas heating !!!) - Hidden agendas ? - I read the theories but I don't know the truth, or what eventually will happen in the next few years - perhaps no one does ATM. perhaps (some) do.

 

Then there are the countries themselves. Many holiday destination tourist industries are in freefall, hotels and businesses closed, many will not reopen. Thailand seems particularly badly hit - 12% of GDP was tourism pre Covid. 39.8 million visitors in 2019.

 

The Aviation industry is close to FUBAR

 

This from today - https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-9187499/Rolls-Royce-burn-cash-expected.html

 

Also 

 

https://www.iata.org/en/pressroom/covid-19-news/

 

https://www.internationalairportreview.com/topic_hub/covid-19/

 

Will aviation / tourism bounce (or crawl) back ? I honestly hope so - we will see.

 

Brit15

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

47 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I think it will, but you’ll never see four engines back, the economics won’t ever stack up again and it’s unnecessary with , er, modern engine reliability 

Now, here's the strange thing about reliability calculations, yes, the engines are more reliable, but, statistically the more engines you have the more likely one will fail!