Boeing 737 Max - back in service

[Michael Hodgson]

55 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Surely, what we mean by "steep" as aviation experts and what is "steep" in terms of passenger comfort are two very different things. I remember being taken to the Paris air show by a friend in the late 70s and being totally amazed at the aerobatics that can be performed with a large airliner.

 

If any of you have followed that link to the Ryanair guy's blog and videos, the 737 Max can take off at a truly remarkable climb angle. But I don't think the passengers would enjoy it and the drinks trolleys will need to be very well anchored. 

 

 

Aerobatics?  I suppose they could try flying inverted briefly in order to get everybody to order more drinks!

 

... but if you fly Ryanair to save money you probably don't want to get drinks from the trolley anyway.

[woodenhead]

14 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

MCAS does away with all this training in favour of a short tablet-based course which took half a day (at least it was supposed to).

 

Ahh like training non medical staff to administer vaccines using an online training package

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

 

Aerobatics?  I suppose they could try flying inverted briefly in order to get everybody to order more drinks!

 

... but if you fly Ryanair to save money you probably don't want to get drinks from the trolley anyway.

I don't fly Ryanair (or Easyjet) to save money. Main factor in my decision is which airports they serve (Perpignan, Carcassonne, Toulouse and Beziers in France, Bristol and Bournemouth in the UK).

[Titan]

4 hours ago, Barry O said:

Boeing must be offering very large discounts to get people to by more of a "tainted" airplane. I wait to what happens when rhinoair land one at Leeds Bradford in the usual strong winds..

 

The teaining of pilots in emergency procedures is a must. Making changes to flight simulators costs money..you need to make big savings to get a return for the training.. so boing must be giving a lot of discount..

 

Baz

 

You know that the Airline industry is in trouble when Ryanair starts buying planes, they are probably buying them at below cost price just like they did after 9/11....

[rob D2]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Surely, what we mean by "steep" as aviation experts and what is "steep" in terms of passenger comfort are two very different things. I remember being taken to the Paris air show by a friend in the late 70s and being totally amazed at the aerobatics that can be performed with a large airliner.

 

If any of you have followed that link to the Ryanair guy's blog and videos, the 737 Max can take off at a truly remarkable climb angle. But I don't think the passengers would enjoy it and the drinks trolleys will need to be very well anchored. 

No not really. I’m not talking Boeing demo flight or farnborough airshow. All turns are made at 25-30 degrees angle of bank - do it any less and you won’t make the required turns quick enough to stay within the departure constraints , do it any more and it’s tea no biscuits .

[rob D2]

18 hours ago, mezzoman253 said:

Ryanair have just ordered another 75 737 Max's to add to their already large(135) previous order.

 

We use Ryanair to Memmingen( Munich West) as our daughter and family lives in Germany near Friedrichshafen. No other airlines fly there direct from here, so we're stuck with Ryanair.

 

We accept it for what it is, a cheap and cheerful way to get to where we want to go.  We could fly into FDH with Lufthansa, but that involves going to LHR and changing in FRA, taking much longer and more expensive. 

 

The train is more expensive and even longer.

 

I'm not happy with the 737 Max, yet. That may change dependant on it's coming service record.

 

Ryanair were considering taking the "Max" logo off of their new aircraft to alleviate problems with customer fears. Not sure if that is still the case. At present they haven't taken any deliveries of the "Max".

 

Rob

I think the max name has already officially been dropped by at least one airline. You do t want passengers turning up and then refusing boarding because they’ve decided they know more about MCAS and flight stability than the designers 

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, Barry O said:

Boeing must be offering very large discounts to get people to by more of a "tainted" airplane.

 

Baz

The BBC news report says that they believe that Ryanair got a large discount

 

I assume these planes have been sitting around in storage for a while and Boeing want rid of them.

Edited December 4, 2020 by melmerby

[30801]

7 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I assume these planes have been sitting around in storage for a while and Boeing want rid of them.

 

They've had to stash them in the employee car parks. On special pads because the tarmac won't take the weight.

[MichaelE]

All the crew would have had to do was shut off the stab trim on the lower right side of the throttle quadrant and it would have disabled the MCAS system and revert to manual control of the stabilizer trim.

 

Whether or not these crews were trained for that is in question.

[Hroth]

Sounds like the discounts you get on pre-registered "demonstrator" cars with low mileage when the registration period ticks over... 

[Jeff Smith]

8 minutes ago, MichaelE said:

All the crew would have had to do was shut off the stab trim on the lower right side of the throttle quadrant and it would have disabled the MCAS system and revert to manual control of the stabilizer trim.

 

Whether or not these crews were trained for that is in question.

Knowledge in hindsight.........

[Barry O]

23 minutes ago, MichaelE said:

All the crew would have had to do was shut off the stab trim on the lower right side of the throttle quadrant and it would have disabled the MCAS system and revert to manual control of the stabilizer trim.

 

Whether or not these crews were trained for that is in question.

according to various reports.. no they weren't .. or perhaps not as clearly as it should have been.

 

Baz

[Joseph_Pestell]

44 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Sounds like the discounts you get on pre-registered "demonstrator" cars with low mileage when the registration period ticks over... 

Yes, but with more noughts.

[MJI]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

The BBC news report says that they believe that Ryanair got a large discount

 

I assume these planes have been sitting around in storage for a while and Boeing want rid of them.

 

 

Less than half price

[greatcoleswoodhalt]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I assume these planes have been sitting around in storage for a while and Boeing want rid of them.

 

Indeed, a few pictures can be found here: -

https://www.airportspotting.com/the-best-places-to-see-grounded-737-max-aircraft/

Edited December 4, 2020 by jafcreasey

[PMP]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

The BBC news report says that they believe that Ryanair got a large discount

 

I assume these planes have been sitting around in storage for a while and Boeing want rid of them.

Nope, as far as I’m aware there’s no ‘white tails’ sitting around, the built aircraft are sold. Obviously the pandemic has meant some of their customers will have gone under, so those frames are likely  to be sold. There’s a big backlog of customers awaiting their Max’s. 
 

Aircraft are like any item, if you’re buying in bulk you can negotiate a significant discount with whatever manufacturer. Ryan’s order was always  due about now, the LoCo’s don’t  keep the aircraft for very long, about five years max, before trading in for a replacement. The aircraft get worked hard, flying 6-8 sectors every day. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by PMP
Awtoe spel

[Jeff Smith]

Storing operational aircraft is not cheap, they still need to be regularly checked and possibly the engines run to keep moisture out of the fuel and oil lines.  I was working as a supplier to a military aircraft manufacturer (not Boeing) here in the US.  There was a hold up in delivery which went on longer than envisaged and we had to inspect and overhaul all the engine fuel controls due to corrosion.

[30801]

1 hour ago, MichaelE said:

All the crew would have had to do was shut off the stab trim on the lower right side of the throttle quadrant and it would have disabled the MCAS system and revert to manual control of the stabilizer trim.

 

Whether or not these crews were trained for that is in question.

 

Not quite that simple given the manual trim wheel would be somewhere near physically impossible to move given the amount of elevator input.

[melmerby]

42 minutes ago, PMP said:

Nope, as far as I’m aware there’s no ‘white tails’ sitting around, the built aircraft are sold.

It was said in jest.

There will probably be some cancellations as airlines review their operational needs but I expect that will be off future production.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, MichaelE said:

All the crew would have had to do was shut off the stab trim on the lower right side of the throttle quadrant and it would have disabled the MCAS system and revert to manual control of the stabilizer trim.

 

 

I doubt it.

The crews were not new to the 737 & may not have even been new to the MAX.

They would have been familiar with manual procedures like this. It has been stated that disabling MCAS was not a procedure which was never considered to be necessary, so it was not in the training, nor was it a case of just turning it off.

 

Assessing the situation is also a factor which often gets overlooked. The problem would have been new to the crews so they would have taken time to decide the best course of action. Both crashes were shortly after take-off so they did not have several minutes of descent to work through different procedures.

[MichaelE]

From the 737 Max pilots I have spoken to, this is indeed how to disable the system. You could slso extend flaos to the first setting if below flap retraction speed schedule.

[rob D2]

Best time to buy these, when Boeing’s on its knees, with this having cost them $25 billion dollars.

 

 

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, rob D2 said:

Best time to buy these, when Boeing’s on its knees, with this having cost them $25 billion dollars.

 

 

 

Depends how much damage it does to Boeing long term, especially when the airline industry is suffering from covid issues. If Boeing goes out of business (unlikely, the us government would likely bail them out either directly or indirectly) then the aircraft would be shorter lived and more expensive to run.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Ron Ron Ron]

6 hours ago, jafcreasey said:

 

Indeed, a few pictures can be found here: -

https://www.airportspotting.com/the-best-places-to-see-grounded-737-max-aircraft/

 

There's footnote in the comments section, at the bottom of that page.

He missed out the large storage of 737-MAX at Moses Lake, WA. from his list of storage sites.

 

Look at the far side of the airfield and very top right corner.....

 

 

A shot of that far corner....

 

 

..and the other side of the field...

 

  

 

 

 

.

[30801]

Parking across the lines.