Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[Reorte]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Where the consequences of doing a stupid thing bear only on the person doing it, I'd tend to agree with you, with a few caveats around protecting people who are too naive to know better, but in this case the consequences of a person doing a stupid thing bear on millions of others, so I don't think I do.

Covid shifts the boundaries but not to the most absolute extremes.

[lapford34102]

Have done my Covid antibody test. All very straightforward apart from dripping blood over the kitchen table which didnt go down well. Have to upload a pic of the test and answer a whole raft of questions which look a bit intrusive like income but suppose it helps build a bigger picture. If test was right do have antibodies. Won't change what I'm doing but a tad more relaxed.

Stu

[Nearholmer]

40 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Perhaps the FT might be the most unbiased as they are focusing on business 

 

All of the papers have their "angle", call it bias, which annoys us all, but is only dangerous if unrecognised and therefore not factored into the readers' reading ......... which sadly I get the impression is the case for a proportion of readers. The FT's "angle" is at least very overt - it simply leaves out anything and everything which can't easily be analysed in terms of its impact on "business" (i.e. actions intended to accumulate money).

 

The BBC is a bit different. It is publicly funded, and we have a right to expect that it will do its level best to present plain facts as plain facts, present a wide range of plain facts so as to avoid the sort of "sin of omission" that the FT has as its stock-in-trade, present balanced and insightful analysis/background, and not peddle personal agendas. We desperately need it to do those things, because democracy can't work properly in a world where every scrap of news comes freighted with bias - look at the impact in the USA!

 

Does the BBC measure-up to all that? IMO, mostly, but not always, and I sometimes think that where it gets it wrong is because it spreads itself too thinly, and in the dash to service the appetite for "instant everything", doesn't allow itself enough time to put items together (I read an analysis of the conflict in Palestine/Israel the other day, and it simply whizzed through the first half of C20th, missing-out events that I think all historians, of whatever stamp, would concur were causative, for instance). Its an old truism that as long as both extremes of politics are equally hacked-off with what they perceive as BBC bias, then its probably getting that balance right.

 

(Woops! Posted while AY was posting a "calm it" message.)

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Pete the Elaner]

15 hours ago, Neil said:

 

There was an interesting yet horrific piece on radio 4 this Monday about life in a quarantine hotel. Well worth listening to if you want a true picture of what they're like.

I listened to the first half but to be honest, it sounds exactly like what quarantine should be.

I've said this before, but anyone who goes abroad at this time should be prepared to be quarantined when they get back home.

Portugal may be on the 'green list' now, but if I go there for a week, I accept that during this time, the infection rate could rise sharply & force a quarantine policy before I return.

Giving notice before quarantine is applied is ridiculous. It is like finding a huge hole on he M1 & still letting traffic use it for another 2 days before closing the road for repairs.

As for the quarantine itself, it is intended to keep people separate from each other. That means long periods stuck in a room & if the hotel has rooms without windows then these will be used too.

 

I turned off when they got to the bit about the emotional reasons he visited Pakistan in the first place. The virus has no prejudice or emotions so none should be shown in order to grant any exemptions.

 

He was locked in a room for most of the day - What else did he expect quarantine to be like?

He had no windows in his room - Some hotels have inside rooms with no windows. Are these supposed to just be wasted?

The way quarantine was described was exactly how I expected it should be.

 

It is strict procedures like this which are keeping Australia & NZ locked away from major problems right now.

 

The report was clearly designed to be horrifying. I felt is was the harsh reality of a nasty virus.

 

I may sound cold & heartless, but so is the virus.

[hayfield]

11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Where the consequences of doing a stupid thing bear only on the person doing it, I'd tend to agree with you, with a few caveats around protecting people who are too naive to know better, but in this case the consequences of a person doing a stupid thing bear on millions of others, so I don't think I do.

 

 

 

The trouble is that with covid its the potential effect you have on others, we all should think of not only the consequences of our actions on ourselves but also on others

 

Un like the common cold or influenza you may be very contagious either before your own symptoms show or you may now suffer any ill effects. Its irresponsible not to act responsibly if you are able to do so.

[Reorte]

24 minutes ago, lapford34102 said:

Have done my Covid antibody test. All very straightforward apart from dripping blood over the kitchen table which didnt go down well. Have to upload a pic of the test and answer a whole raft of questions which look a bit intrusive like income but suppose it helps build a bigger picture. If test was right do have antibodies. Won't change what I'm doing but a tad more relaxed.

 

Those other questions sound disturbing quite honestly - I've always had a problem with attempts at getting more information out of people than is strictly necessary for the reason for whatever it is you're doing (assuming they're not optional).

[boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’d say that however clear a person might be in their own mind about the meaning of ‘amber’, somebody, somewhere is confused, because holiday companies appear to be selling holidays to such places, while at the same time the PM is saying that one shouldn’t be going on holiday to them, the government website says “You should not travel to amber list countries or territories, yet at the same time it isn’t against the law to go to them.

 

The single thing that confuses me personally about it is why anyone invented “amber” at all in this context.
 

The only difference in requirements between “red” and “amber” seems to be that from “red” a returnee has to go to a supervised quarantine hotel, whereas from “amber” they isolate at home. My conclusion is that “amber” was invented because there aren’t enough quarantine hotels to go round.

Problem is if they made it against the law then those that really do have a genuine reason to travel would need to go through a process of allowance to be able to travel, and as most of the reasons might well be very urgent it might not be a fast process, this time the GOV are trying to give the responsibility to the public.......wadda’mistaka’to’make as they say.

 

As for the travel companies like Easy Jet (with the advert “Jab and Go”) it seems pretty obvious why they are saying people can travel, maybe that’s the bit the GOV should make illegal?

[Hobby]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The single thing that confuses me personally about it is why anyone invented “amber” at all in this context.

 

To show which countries are heading in the right direction? Trouble is that social media and the press wind things up so much that clear cut, black and white, decisions are virtually impossible. Even when someone says No (as in the red listed countries) someone then questions it! So for them to put in a "compromise" level is the only way round it. If anyone is to blame it's the press and the more extreme users of social media.

 

@monkeysarefun just out of interest do you have the same issues we have with the Press and Social Media users?

 

(Hopefully, @AY Mod I'm not crossing the line with this?!)

[Nearholmer]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

If anyone is to blame it's the press and the more extreme users of social media.

 

And the travel industry.

 

4 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I've always had a problem with attempts at getting more information out of people than is strictly necessary for the reason for whatever it is you're doing

 

To get a good picture of how Covid has impacted, and crucially whether it has impacted the least well off, people from particular ethnic or cultural backgrounds, people living in crowded accommodation etc disproportionately, I would have thought that quite a lot of questions, a census form-full almost, would be strictly necessary.

 

If one positive might come from the misery of this pandemic, it might be a clear and overt understanding of how personal history and circumstances affect health outcomes, and some learning about what might be done to improve people's prospects. There are very strong pointers already (e.g. smoking, being obese, and being a man are bad ideas), but finer detail would surely be very useful.

[lapford34102]

43 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Those other questions sound disturbing quite honestly

A number of the questions had a "rather not say" option to be fair but I do agree with you on the excessive amount of information trawling there is around. In this case there were the usual bits about Imp College not sharing it with anyone and I felt it was in a good cause hopefully 

Stu

[Reorte]

40 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

To get a good picture of how Covid has impacted, and crucially whether it has impacted the least well off, people from particular ethnic or cultural backgrounds, people living in crowded accommodation etc disproportionately, I would have thought that quite a lot of questions, a census form-full almost, would be strictly necessary.

If it's explicitly a survey to determine that then that's OK - it would also need to be divorced from any personally identifiable information. If it's trying to grab it as a by-product of a test that is being taken to determine whether or not you can go somewhere then I feel it crosses the line.

[SamThomas]

18 hours ago, EddieB said:

Well there must be any number of cruise ships that won't be going anywhere - and potential bragging rights for those forced to isolate on them.

Many have already finished their last one-way cruise to the breakers yards.

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Problem is if they made it against the law then those that really do have a genuine reason to travel would need to go through a process of allowance to be able to travel, and as most of the reasons might well be very urgent it might not be a fast process, this time the GOV are trying to give the responsibility to the public.......wadda’mistaka’to’make as they say.

 

As for the travel companies like Easy Jet (with the advert “Jab and Go”) it seems pretty obvious why they are saying people can travel, maybe that’s the bit the GOV should make illegal?

 

 

It was against the law for all to travel except for exceptional reasons. It was never enforced, now we hear the department of health (not the government) has failed to keep local authorities informed on positive tests

 

It now is quite clear, whilst it is lawful to travel abroad, in Red and Amber zones only essential travel is permitted, going on holiday is not essential travel, if you do go to one of these countries, you have to follow the appropriate quarantine upon your return, now the local authorities are tasked to check up on them . Sadly not unlawful and I expect a luke warm response from local health officials.

 

Its not confusing, but will anyone take notice ? 

[woodenhead]

The difficulty on enforcement is the simple fact that once someone has left our borders it is for the destination country to control what happens next and there is no uniform agreement.

 

So I can take a flight to Portugal and then drive or take a train from their to Spain, or France or anywhere else where there are open borders to Portugal.  When I return I go back through Portugal.

 

People will always find loopholes.

 

Having travel companies refuse to refund people their booked holidays into amber countries is also placing people in financial predicaments.  This time it is the travel companies using loopholes to avoid the obvious refund or change options by using Goverment advice in their favour. 

 

Confusing messages create loopholes, people will always exploit such loopholes

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, lapford34102 said:

Have done my Covid antibody test. All very straightforward apart from dripping blood over the kitchen table which didnt go down well. Have to upload a pic of the test and answer a whole raft of questions which look a bit intrusive like income but suppose it helps build a bigger picture. If test was right do have antibodies. Won't change what I'm doing but a tad more relaxed.

Stu

 

I suspect at the end of this we will find (as with many other diseases) that Covid has hit the poorer members of societies more than the better off.   It is important therefore to find out if that suspicion is correct or just a prejudice.

 

No doubt many reasons why that might be so and it will be getting to the bottom of that that will be the key.  

[caradoc]

Story on the BBC News website about an elderly man who had booked a trip to Spain, only to be denied boarding his flight: 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57176693

 

He did not know that Spain has banned entry to all non-nationals and residents since December ! 

 

Personally I have no intention of travelling abroad, anywhere, until next year at the earliest, because things are so uncertain; And when I do go I will make sure I am aware of all restrictions and conditions, both in the UK and abroad. 

 

[EddieB]

13 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

So I can take a flight to Portugal and then drive or take a train from their to Spain, or France or anywhere else where there are open borders to Portugal.  When I return I go back through Portugal.

 

People will always find loopholes.

A big gamble, because if you're found to have left a green territory and failed to declare, then you could face an eye-watering fine.  The borders are less open than they used to be.

[MJI]

Our doctors have messed up a bit, I had jab 2 a few weeks ago, my wife has heard nothing.

 

So today she sorted out her booster herself at an open to anyone venue.

 

Last day of week 12

[monkeysarefun]

5 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

@monkeysarefun just out of interest do you have the same issues we have with the Press and Social Media users?

Apart from a few Facebook nutters and our Murdoch equivalent of Fox News which hardly anyone watches, everyone has been pretty united in support of the restrictions, probably because the rules here have been consistent right from the beginning of the pandemic, and the success of them has shown their worth.

The main news here currently is concerns about the tardiness of us all getting vacinated.

[hayfield]

20 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

Apart from a few Facebook nutters and our Murdoch equivalent of Fox News which hardly anyone watches, everyone has been pretty united in support of the restrictions, probably because the rules here have been consistent right from the beginning of the pandemic, and the success of them has shown their worth.

The main news here currently is concerns about the tardiness of us all getting vacinated.

 

I think the Australians have been served well by their politicians in protecting them against the worst effects of the virus, but to entre back into the ability to freely move about the population at large needs vaccinating, otherwise you will end up like many south Asian countries with the pandemic now infecting their populations

[NIK]

Hi,

 

While I was out fishing in the South of England yesterday I kept hearing large jet aircraft at heights and paths I hadn't noticed before.

 

Then when there was a gap in the clouds I saw one doing a sharper bank than a passenger plane with passengers on board might do and at a place where turns aren't normally seen.

 

Pilots doing non simulator refreshers in preparation for more passenger flights?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[durham light infantry]

5 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

I suspect at the end of this we will find (as with many other diseases) that Covid has hit the poorer members of societies more than the better off.   It is important therefore to find out if that suspicion is correct or just a prejudice.

 

No doubt many reasons why that might be so and it will be getting to the bottom of that that will be the key.  

 

Not just the poorer members of society, but those who were key workers on the front line. Most care sector workers only receive SSP (and that only after the first 3 days) which is a few pence short of £96.

Speaking personally it cost me around £1400 to be off sick with Covid this time last year. Which resulted in me only taking 3 weeks off recuperating post hospitalisation, rather than the 8 weeks which I was supposed to take. Plus another £560 to be off with long covid symptoms (which have currently returned) in January. We were given the sop of a one off covid payment in October of £311, which was taxed...

 

If I had been in a job which was furloughed I would have received 80 % of my wage. Instead I lost 70% of my wage for the privelege of nearly dying of covid and then suffering from long covid.

 

The icing on this particularly bitter cake is the Bradford formula used by many employers. On returning to work in January I was told that my Bradford score for 2020/21 was likely to result in disciplinary action if I was to occur any further sickness.

 

Many care sector workers will have a similar experience. I doubt whether this will be addressed by the public enquiry, or the long awaited review of adult social care.

[Hobby]

I'm sure you can feed into these sorts of reports. At the very least you should contact your local MP and ask how it can be done. If no one who has gone through what you have tries then it's true that they will never know. 

[MJI]

 

My wife watches a couple of ITV daytime programmes. Each one has a person not bring vaccinated when they should.

[monkeysarefun]

8 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I think the Australians have been served well by their politicians in protecting them against the worst effects of the virus, but to entre back into the ability to freely move about the population at large needs vaccinating, otherwise you will end up like many south Asian countries with the pandemic now infecting their populations

The trouble here  is that a real hatchet job has been done on the AZ vaccine by the media being sensational. Google "Australia vaccine clot" or similar and you'll get dozens of stories about the hand full of people who have got blood clots or died after getting the vaccine. They are always prefaced with "Another" as in "Another man gets blood clot.." etc to imply that its happening left right and centre and people are keeling over every 20 minutes or something. 

 

The government didn't help matters a while back by withdrawing the use of the AZ vaccine for those under 50 while at the same time  still trying to convince everyone it was perfectly safe. This led to wierd interviews with MP's and government spokespeople who always had to  give an example of something that was unlikely yet was  statistically  more  likely than getting a clot from the AZ  vaccine which in their eyes would allay fears so every interview had "You are more likely to [insert unlikely event here such as getting hit by a falling horse while surfing or similar] than to get a blood clot from a vaccination"

 

 The announcement that we will be getting the Moderna and Novavax vacinnes in the next few months means that a sizeable  proportion of  people are holding out for these, rather than getting  the AZ one now. Of course as soon as the Moderna and Novavax vacinnes roll out the media will sensationalise any blood-clot style issues and it'll start all over again. 

 

The thing is -

 

, the total death toll  from covid in Australia is 907.

 

Our total case number is 29.000, less than many countries have in a day. 

 

Very few people even  know anyone who has had it - the main impact has been economic, and that is mainly limited to those who's  livelihood relies on tourism.

 

  Although Australians do travel overseas we don't need to do that  to lie on a beach in the sun and Australia is big enough and diverse enough to enable pretty well anyone to have a holiday that interests them, and now we can go to New Zealand which adds to the variety so the overseas travel ban other than for those with relatives overseas has not been much of an issue here. 

 

The government doesn't post future dates when things will happen other than to say that travel won't restart BEFORE July 2022 so there's no pressure on them to reopen just to stick to some previously announced  date despite the situation. 

 

 Over 500,000 people have gone through hotel quarantine and we've had less than 10 breaches in that time and other than the Melbourne disaster caused by the Victorian government using private industry security guards instead of the police  and armed services, no subsequent community outbreaks have occurred.

 

Anyway, I'm listing all this not to imply how awesome we are but to show that although they are desirable outcomes it means that many people here feel that they can afford to wait to get vaccinated and so are holding out - up to a third of adults don't intend to get vaccinated until they are able to get the vaccine of their choice, or unless some outbreak occurs in the meantime. They aren't "Anti_vaxers" par se,  they  just want to have some say in what version they get. 

 

Again, these views aren't necessarily my own so please don't post telling me how short-sighted  they are!

Edited May 20, 2021 by monkeysarefun