Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[Hobby]

In effect we are starting to do just that with the ban on the unvaccinated being allowed to do "Care" type jobs (and possibly the NHS). TBH I feel that everyone has a responsibility for the general health of everyone else, especially the vulnerable, so I see no issue in banning those who can be vaccinated but choose not to from such jobs. Whether I'd go as far as "house arrest", no I wouldn't in the "present situation", as you put it.

 

Yesterdays on the BBC News they gave a lot of air time to some woman who'd just worked her last shift in a care home because she wouldn't get vaccinated (rather than couldn't because of health reasons). I remember saying to SWMBO that I had no sympathy whatsoever with her and felt they gave her far too much air time. As we use Carers when I'm at work and my wife is vulnerable I have no sympathy at all with such people who are willing to put others' lives at risk because of their own feelings/beliefs.

 

Maybe that's a little strong for some people but that's the way I feel, if you want to put you're own health at risk, then that's fine, when it affects mine and others then it's not.

[Neil]

Oh dear it's that man again, setting a bad example. From the Daily Mirror, PM asked to keep mask on three times during hospital visit. 

 

For the record, to forestall criticism, I want this government to be the best at dealing with Covid, I want the PM's conduct to be beyond reproach, I want him  to demonstrate leadership by example, I want to be able to turn round and say 'I don't agree with this government's politics but they've done a first rate job of leading us through this crisis'. 

[Oldddudders]

There are certain conventions in life that are enshrined in law - driving on the left comes to mind, and I am not aware that the civil liberties lobby has made much noise about that. But it is very comparable in that it makes the road safer for everyone. Vaccination has the same function in personal health. 

[monkeysarefun]

43 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

In Austria at the moment, having travelled (by train) through France and Germany. Your Covid passport is everything, hotels, restaurants, etc. Seems entirely sensible to me.

 

Mask wearing is mandatory in public enclosed spaces (eg trains!), almost 100% observed. Interestingly, in Germany, DB requires it to be a FFP2 mask. Difficult to be absolutely certain but I estimate that no more than 50% of such masks were in fact FFP2 masks. No particular enforcement of that requirement was observed. 

 

FWIW

 

Thats as is for NSW right now re passport and masks (though not the FFP2 bit) , with the added bit that unvaccinated cant travel internationally, interstate or out of their region.

 

Non-residents  still cant get into the country.

[Neil]

29 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

What do we think about the civil liberties angle of effectively “locking down” the unvaccinated? 
 

To me, that step from Covid passports for specified venues, to “partial house arrest” would feel disproportionate and heavy-booted for our present situation in the U.K., but what if the pressure on hospitals gets even worse than it is now?

 

(I still can’t see how it could be enforced without a seriously oppressive measures, but that isn’t the question I’m posing. I’m asking “Should we?”, rather than “Could we?”.)

 

 

 

Rights of the individual vs the rights of the many? Individual rights/freedoms are OK until they come into conflict with the rights of the many, then questions need to be asked. An easy example would be drinking, I can go to the pub and drink as much as I want, it's fine if I walk home but not if I drive. There are limits to what I can do because if not, there's potential harm to others. So if we got to a situation where there was a similar level of risk that harm would be done to others I'd be fine with restrictions on the unvaccinated. It's not as though they don't have an opportunity to cast off those restrictions.  

[beast66606]

7 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

There are certain conventions in life that are enshrined in law - driving on the left comes to mind, and I am not aware that the civil liberties lobby has made much noise about that. But it is very comparable in that it makes the road safer for everyone. Vaccination has the same function in personal health. 

 

The difference though Ian is you don't get forcibly injected to drive on the left.

 

My son's half brother had his second jab (he's 18) a couple of weeks ago, the other day he was rushed to hospital and was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, the only symptoms he'd seen had started since the second jab (thirst, tired feeling), so now he has to inject etc. for life - connected to the vaccine ? - who knows, no-one is interested in finding out, they merely say "It doesn't matter how he developed it, he has it and it needs to be managed", it seems very coincidental but maybe it is, or maybe it isn't.

 

[Dunsignalling]

15 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

The difference though Ian is you don't get forcibly injected to drive on the left.

 

My son's half brother had his second jab (he's 18) a couple of weeks ago, the other day he was rushed to hospital and was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, the only symptoms he'd seen had started since the second jab (thirst, tired feeling), so now he has to inject etc. for life - connected to the vaccine ? - who knows, no-one is interested in finding out, they merely say "It doesn't matter how he developed it, he has it and it needs to be managed", it seems very coincidental but maybe it is, or maybe it isn't.

 

A couple of (much older) people I've known who had/has Type 1, only became aware of it in their late teens/early twenties, so it may well be coincidental. 

 

John

Edited November 12, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Jonboy]

I have to say that (even though I double jabbed as quickly as possible) as we don’t know the long term health implications of COVID or the vaccine I have sympathy with those that are hesitant.
Part of this is on the basis of how long things conditions as asbestosis can take to show up and how long they can take to be formally investigated and recognised.

 

My wife on the over hand is all for it, and it has got to the point we have accepted neither will change the others view and stopped talking about it….which is probably the first subject we have ended up in this position on in almost 20 years together.

[PaulCheffus]

31 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

The difference though Ian is you don't get forcibly injected to drive on the left.

 

My son's half brother had his second jab (he's 18) a couple of weeks ago, the other day he was rushed to hospital and was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, the only symptoms he'd seen had started since the second jab (thirst, tired feeling), so now he has to inject etc. for life - connected to the vaccine ? - who knows, no-one is interested in finding out, they merely say "It doesn't matter how he developed it, he has it and it needs to be managed", it seems very coincidental but maybe it is, or maybe it isn't.

 

Hi

 

A friend of my sons caught Covid earlier this year. She has since been diagnosed as a type 1 diabetic. Now as far as I am aware type 1 is genetic so I would presume that the risk was already there and Covid has triggered the immune system to cause this to appear sooner rather than later.

 

I was diagnosed at age 21 with type 1.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Andy Hayter]

56 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

What do we think about the civil liberties angle of effectively “locking down” the unvaccinated? 
 

To me, that step from Covid passports for specified venues, to “partial house arrest” would feel disproportionate and heavy-booted for our present situation in the U.K., but what if the pressure on hospitals gets even worse than it is now?

 

(I still can’t see how it could be enforced without a seriously oppressive measures, but that isn’t the question I’m posing. I’m asking “Should we?”, rather than “Could we?”.)

 

 

There are so many questions tied up in that post.

 

If instead of unvaccinated, we were talking about people who were typhoid carriers, we would have no compunction about locking down - and more severely.  The principal of protecting society from health risk based on individuals is therefore already set.  

 

We can then only talk about proportionality rather than civil liberties.

 

If pressure on hospitals increases to the point where they run the risk of collapsing (which from afar it sounds as if they are close to doing) then extra measures will be required.  So what are those steps? 

Enforced mask wearing - which in the UK it seems many found ways of circumventing so the hospital situation may not improve.

Working from home under all practical situations.

Lockdown - so now the question is, is it right to lock everyone down when the greater proportion of the problem is caused by the relatively few unvaccinated?   I think that is the point at which Austria is now at and they have decided that at this stage the answer is no, the entire population should not be punished.  Full lockdown might well be what follows if this step does not come up trumps.

 

So in my mind the "should we" question can be answered with a yes, when the conditions dictate that further steps need to be taken.  Better to restrict the freedoms of the recalcitrant than the freedoms of the entire population.

 

The "could we" is much more difficult.  Having worked in Germany for many years, I see a very different mentality to that in the UK.  Germans are far more rule driven and as such stick to the rules much more than the British - just look at the ways in which mask wearing have been bent in the UK as an almost trivial example of what I mean.  My experience of working with Austrians is more limited but I sense a very similar ethic.  Enforcement therefore is not the problem that I think it would be in the UK, where indeed heavy policing would likely be needed.   

 

 

[beast66606]

5 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

A friend of my sons caught Covid earlier this year. She has since been diagnosed as a type 1 diabetic. Now as far as I am aware type 1 is genetic so I would presume that the risk was already there and Covid has triggered the immune system to cause this to appear sooner rather than later.

 

I was diagnosed at age 21 with type 1.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

No known history of diabetes in either side of his family going back several generations, none in living relatives  - but could be buried in the genes of course.

 

Reading about this it looks like - as you say - Covid (and presumably the vaccine) can trigger the immune system to misbehave.

[hayfield]

13 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I had to visit the local pharmacy today, which is attached to the surgery. The first comment was that the surgery is snowed under and can barely cope. The chap said wait until the bad weather comes to see just how bad it is going to get. My GP retired last week and I do not yet have a new contact. It seems that the NHS have been instructed to reduce the amount of medicine issued at any one time, with 28 days supply becoming the norm. That of course means even more work for both the surgery and the pharmacy. The surgery and the pharmacy are not involved with covid vaccinations. With annual boosters looking to be the way forward they simply do not want to be involved as they could not cope. If you think that the current government policy is working then feel free to come and chat with them.

Bernard

 

Bernard

 

This sounds like what we had in the village 2 years ago, local health centre had not enough doctors, I asked the health centres pharmacist (2 years + ago) why not prescribe my prescription for 2 months instead of one, which cut the workload per year in half. But was told it was a directive from the NHS (not government) Essex commissioning department.  As a cost saving exercise for prescribing drugs which would never be used !!!! The decision was nothing to do with the government but a NHS department

 

The health centre prior to covid was also short of doctors, this was resolver by getting extra doctors in but also using nurse practitioner's and pharmacists, in the past two years I have never used a doctor for consultations, check ups with nurses or the Pharmacist  

 

Our Health centre seemingly has cut back on its covid booster program. However local pharmacies have stepped up to the plate. Allowing the medical centre to concentrate on sick patents.

 

All to often its easy to blame the government. Several years ago I had a one week stay in hospital. Firstly the numbers of admin staff was massive, yes we need them, but do we need the quantity we have ?   (My brother in law was a NHS administrator so I understand it a bit) Secondly I was kept in hospital needlessly (according to my consultant) simply as there was no one available to discharge me over the weekend. Thirdly this hospital decided to get involved in property development by buying up land (some of which it did not need for its own expansion ) under a hospital redevelopment planning, then selling it off to private property development (I doubt if the private developers would have got change of use for the land through planning themselves)

 

The NHS is Europe's biggest employer, it does a wonderful job, But as a country every government has had to put limits of how much cash it can have, unchecked it would just grow hungrier for cash.

Edited November 12, 2021 by hayfield

[PaulCheffus]

5 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

No known history of diabetes in either side of his family going back several generations, none in living relatives  - but could be buried in the genes of course.

 

Reading about this it looks like - as you say - Covid (and presumably the vaccine) can trigger the immune system to misbehave.

Hi

 

No known history in either side of my family also going back several generations so I’ve always wondered where mine came from. One thing as a teenager I had Thyrotoxicosis (over active thyroid) and I’ve often wondered if that’s what set it off. Several of my friends have had Thyroid issues in later life and at least one of them also developed diabetes.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Edited November 12, 2021 by PaulCheffus

[john new]

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

Went to Tesco's yesterday and as you'd expect with this older population , near 100% mask wearing. Noticeable if you go to the big one in Norwich with a younger population, that the numbers wearing masks are much less.

We seem to get sufficient doctors here, dentists is another problem.

 

SWMBO got a booster reminder from NHS yesterday, I didn't, we were both vaccinated the same day, and I'm the vulnerable one... Which means I have suspicions about the email, but it seems genuine although we've not clicked on it.

If we used the NHS, book your own, system it would direct us to vaccination centres 25 or 65 miles away, meaning a day off to use them.

if we wait till the surgery contacts us, then that uses a village hall  10 miles away and I can drop in on the way home from work and SWMBO can drive there easily..

 

Contact. We had same situation, received unexpectedly the wrong way round IIRC about 12 hours apart. Although my wife was 2nd jabbed before me, it was only by minutes on the same day/centre.

 

As guesses: Possibly the way the jab data got added to a master list, five minutes apart at one centre is several thousand apart on a nationally collated data base. Also our NHS record numbers will not be consecutive and e-mail providers differ - so probably depends on the secondary sort fields for mailing out (1) Date of jab then ???? for subsequent.

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by john new
To make better sense.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

 

For the record, to forestall criticism, I want this government to be the best at dealing with Covid, I want the PM's conduct to be beyond reproach, I want him  to demonstrate leadership by example, I want to be able to turn round and say 'I don't agree with this government's politics but they've done a first rate job of leading us through this crisis'. 

 

If you want a saint vote in a religious leader ( then they would still come up short). I would say Boris was doing this in a carefully choregraphed exercise, I think its called taking the pressure off, clearly job done. At least he was sober whilst on official duties.

 

You know you will never get that from any politician, just like one senior opposition MP complaining about Cox (which I think carries a lot of merit), but in the past having themselves declared earning a six figure sum a year doing part time legal work as a backbencher. No doubt envy steps in here, as Cox is seemingly worth more an hour than the complainer. Now had this come from a person who has never taken a second job (including being sponsored by a union) whilst being a MP it would have had far more weight.

 

Back on covid, my mother in law is in hospital with a broken hip. My wife took her farther in to see her and visiting restrictions have seemingly been relaxed a bit. Long wait for both an ambulance and in A&E. But the NHS does its best at difficult times

 

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

56 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Bernard

 

This sounds like what we had in the village 2 years ago, local health centre had not enough doctors, I asked the health centres pharmacist (2 years + ago) why not prescribe my prescription for 2 months instead of one, which cut the workload per year in half. But was told it was a directive from the NHS (not government) Essex commissioning department.  As a cost saving exercise for prescribing drugs which would never be used !!!! The decision was nothing to do with the government but a NHS department

 

The health centre prior to covid was also short of doctors, this was resolver by getting extra doctors in but also using nurse practitioner's and pharmacists, in the past two years I have never used a doctor for consultations, check ups with nurses or the Pharmacist  

 

Our Health centre seemingly has cut back on its covid booster program. However local pharmacies have stepped up to the plate. Allowing the medical centre to concentrate on sick patents.

 

All to often its easy to blame the government. Several years ago I had a one week stay in hospital. Firstly the numbers of admin staff was massive, yes we need them, but do we need the quantity we have ?   (My brother in law was a NHS administrator so I understand it a bit) Secondly I was kept in hospital needlessly (according to my consultant) simply as there was no one available to discharge me over the weekend. Thirdly this hospital decided to get involved in property development by buying up land (some of which it did not need for its own expansion ) under a hospital redevelopment planning, then selling it off to private property development (I doubt if the private developers would have got change of use for the land through planning themselves)

 

The NHS is Europe's biggest employer, it does a wonderful job, But as a country every government has had to put limits of how much cash it can have, unchecked it would just grow hungrier for cash.

Up to a few weeks ago, I'd required relatively little contact with the NHS in thirty years, but when I suddenly did, boy did it deliver.

 

Everything required has been delivered, promptly and efficiently, both for my main problem and a couple of unconnected issues that have arisen since (traditionally, problems always come in threes!).

 

The clinical staff couldn't have done that alone without deflecting them from core tasks requiring their skills/knowledge so, yes, administrators are important too.

 

All my repeat prescriptions consist of a 2-month supply, including the new one, so the position with yours definitely is a local Health Trust policy rather than anything imposed from "on high".  

 

John 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[hayfield]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

Up to a few weeks ago, I'd required very little contact with the NHS in thirty years, but when I suddenly did, boy did it deliver.

 

Everything required has been delivered, promptly and efficiently, both for my main problem and a couple of unconnected issues that have arisen since (traditionally, problems always come in threes!).

 

The clinical staff couldn't have done that alone without deflecting them from core tasks requiring their skills/knowledge so, yes, administrators are important too.

 

John 

 

I did not say we do not need them, but when on a hospital ward the number of non medical staff out and about surprised me. Secondly there was an instance where administrator's made extra work for them selves, but that is another story. As you say on the front line the medical staff were/are amazing

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

What do we think about the civil liberties angle of effectively “locking down” the unvaccinated? 
 

To me, that step from Covid passports for specified venues, to “partial house arrest” would feel disproportionate and heavy-booted for our present situation in the U.K., but what if the pressure on hospitals gets even worse than it is now?

 

(I still can’t see how it could be enforced without a seriously oppressive measures, but that isn’t the question I’m posing. I’m asking “Should we?”, rather than “Could we?”.)

 

 

If such actions do become necessary, any "blame" must be apportioned to those who create the necessity, rather than those forced into implementing the remedy.

 

It would have a few other ramifications, though, including those genuinely exempt from vaccination being required to carry an equivalent document, not just buy a three-quid lanyard....

 

Should such restrictions actually come to pass, they will need to include public transport, and some aspects of that, especially OPO buses, are problematic.

 

John 

 

 

[beast66606]

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Should such restrictions actually come to pass, they will need to include public transport, and some aspects of that, especially OPO buses, are problematic.

 

 

 

And defining any exemptions from such restrictions - a real minefield

[Dunsignalling]

Just now, beast66606 said:

 

And defining any exemptions from such restrictions - a real minefield

Medical certificate only. No superstition.

[Torper]

1 hour ago, beast66606 said:

Reading about this it looks like - as you say - Covid (and presumably the vaccine) can trigger the immune system to misbehave.

 

No - there should be no such presumption regarding the vaccine and to suggest there is is scaremongering.  Certainly there is evidence that the covid virus can trigger or perhaps even cause diabetes, which is of course yet another reason to ensure that one is vacinated against covid.   I am not aware of any evidence to suggest that the vaccines (none of which actually contain the covid virus) do so.

 

DT

[Neil]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

..... I would say Boris was doing this in a carefully choregraphed exercise, I think its called taking the pressure off, clearly job done. ....

 

If it was planned that he should remove his mask when the official briefing for the visit from the hospital was that masks should be worn by all for the complete duration of the visit while on hospital premises, then that only becomes worse. Covid, very clearly, isn't done.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to require that politicians should be held to high standards. We would rightly complain about electricians, teachers, hoteliers or social workers if they did a bad job; politicians (of any party) shouldn't be exempt. If we make excuses then we end up with shoddy governance.

[hayfield]

45 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

If it was planned that he should remove his mask when the official briefing for the visit from the hospital was that masks should be worn by all for the complete duration of the visit while on hospital premises, then that only becomes worse. Covid, very clearly, isn't done.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to require that politicians should be held to high standards. We would rightly complain about electricians, teachers, hoteliers or social workers if they did a bad job; politicians (of any party) shouldn't be exempt. If we make excuses then we end up with shoddy governance.

 

Going off topic so I shall stop, 

[Nearholmer]

Diabetes precipitated by covid, discussed here:

 

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news/new-worse-cases-coronavirus

 

 

4 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

We can then only talk about proportionality rather than civil liberties.

I’m not sure there is a difference, because both are part of the same issue: what, if any, restriction of individual civil liberties might be proportionate in given circumstances in order to protect the well-being of others?

 

Last March, the circumstances were very pressing indeed, and the vast majority of us consented willingly to huge restriction of our liberties, because we could see that those restrictions were necessary and proportionate.

 

IMO, whatever the moral or practical right or wrongs of an “unvaccinated only” lockdown, I think that only a person intent on causing a lot of fights would attempt to impose one in this country, and I suspect that fights will follow in Austria too, given that as well as having perhaps a greater tendency to general civil obedience, they are cursed with a quite active organised far-right, which likes to fight about anything or nothing.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Nearholmer

[MarkC]

I see that as of tomorrow (13th), the Dutch are closing bars, restaurants & non-essential shops after 1900 every day for at least 3 weeks.

 

My Dutch colleagues on board are NOT impressed by this, referring to it as "gesture politics".

 

Hey ho...