Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[Dunsignalling]

There is one danger that hasn't yet been mentioned in respect of potential returns to a form of lockdown. 

 

Any such course would, in large measure, be a response to inadequate vaccination rates and it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to envisage a section of the vaccinated majority turning on the unvaccinated unless any restrictions are confined to the latter.

 

John

[Nearholmer]

28 minutes ago, hayfield said:

must never accept rioting

Never say never. It’s too complicated a subject to allow that.

[Bernard Lamb]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Never say never. It’s too complicated a subject to allow that.

Better not start a discussion about the rights and wrongs of Cable Street.

Bernard

[MJI]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I like I assume the vast majority would be appalled at such use of force was used. However by condemning it we must be careful not to condone the use of rioting as a legitimate activity.

 

In an orderly society we must never accept rioting as a justifiable course of action. All those taking part in rioting should face the full force of the law and should be made to pay for the destruction they have made. Clearly a small number of those rioting have a different agenda, the mass then feel they are entitled to join in. This should never be tolerated as it leads to anarchy  

 

 

 

If the rioters are attacking Police I do not blame them firing on them.

 

Outnumbered being attacked by rabid loonies, what do you expect to happen?

[Ron Ron Ron]

We were due to go on a Rhine river cruise to the Christmas markets in a few weeks time, with another couple.

It wasn’t my idea. Mrs Ron and her friend colluded on this one.

Now with parts of Germany starting to implement lockdowns and Christmas markets in some states being cancelled, it’s starting to look a bit dodgy.

Some German media are speculating that a national lockdown isn’t far off.

 

The Greens and SPD are inclined towards following Austria into compulsory vaccination.

I think we can expect some mass protests and possibly further riots there.

 

What they call 2G - (fully jabbed passport) is being progressively applied everywhere, including in hairdressers and shops.

 

 

.

[John M Upton]

I can see where this is going despite the (worthless) statements of the powers that be that there will be no lockdowns.  As a result, we have already decided not to bother with Christmas this year, the chances of it being effectively cancelled again are getting more likely by the day.

 

Unfortunately if we do then enter another period of restrictions/lockdown whether it be just on the unvaccinated or everyone, then things may very well turn nasty...

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Never say never. It’s too complicated a subject to allow that.

 

To demonstrate I totally agree, rioting no !!! Its anarchy. Two wrongs do not make a right

 

What right do I have to make criminal damage against a totally innocent third party and or someone who is there to protect a property or others. None at all 

[beast66606]

39 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

If the rioters are attacking Police I do not blame them firing on them.

 

Outnumbered being attacked by rabid loonies, what do you expect to happen?

 

I think if that was the case there would be a lot more deaths, it's not only people you dislike who riot ...

[Ron Ron Ron]

Just now, hayfield said:

 

To demonstrate I totally agree, rioting no !!! Its anarchy. Two wrongs do not make a right

 

What right do I have to make criminal damage against a totally innocent third party and or someone who is there to protect a property or others. None at all 

Yet there were Insulate Britain and XR supporters arguing on BBC 5 Live the other day, that all forms of civil disobedience and “direct action” (including riots and ignoring the law) were legitimate “rights” in a civilised society.

Anarchists have been  feeding this narrative into many areas in recent years.

[hayfield]

5 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

I can see where this is going despite the (worthless) statements of the powers that be that there will be no lockdowns.  As a result, we have already decided not to bother with Christmas this year, the chances of it being effectively cancelled again are getting more likely by the day.

 

Unfortunately if we do then enter another period of restrictions/lockdown whether it be just on the unvaccinated or everyone, then things may very well turn nasty...

 

John

 

My own opinion is that I hope we may well escape being locked down, however I will choose who I see and where I go a bit more carefully 

 

UK PLC decided to come out of lockdown earlier than Europe so that the expected spike in infections would not occur at the same time the expected flu virus takes hold, secondly we are rolling out boosters earlier now

 

The other factor is where the infections are, before half term it was mainly in older school children and their parents, listening to the Essex health chief and looking at the heat maps its the junior school children (and I guess their families) that are now being affected. Groups which can deal with infections better than the elderly 

[Hobby]

12 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

the chances of it being effectively cancelled again are getting more likely by the day.

 

Really? That's not what I'm seeing, certainly in the UK which is what you are talking of I assume?

[Hobby]

I guess we are heading for another "glass half full" vs "glass half empty" discussion!!

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

Two wrongs do not make a right

Sometimes, it takes a lesser wrong to right a far greater wrong, sadly.

 

There are plenty of examples where people have been driven to riot because they have had no other effective mechanism open to them by which to get a perfectly reasonable point across. That wouldn’t be the case if incumbent regimes were always fair and reasonable, but they aren’t always. The status quo that gets labelled “a civilised society” isn’t always one that stands up to even the slightest moral examination.

 

Worth bearing in mind too that what constitutes “riot” is defined by the incumbent regime, in the present code of law. It isn’t an immutable thing, and a favourite trick of oppressive regimes is to define near-trivial acts of dissent as “riot”, to give a fig-leaf of cover when they crack down on. That young guy who got squashed like a fly by a ruddy great tank in Tianmen Square might well have been “rioting” by the definition by applied there and then.

 

I’m not for one moment saying that is the case here, but I am saying “never say never”.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

If we wanted to get really tasteless, we could “run a book” on whether, and if so when, there will a lockdown in the U.K. over the coming winter.

 

First thing we’d need to do is define what constitutes “a lockdown”, in the way that the Met Office and/or bookies, I’m not sure which, define “snowfall on Christmas Day”.

 

 

[hayfield]

The trouble is though in many groups they see an opportunity to take over a genuine cause to  unrest either to further their criminal or twisted political beliefs, going softly on these people only encourages them to continue.

 

Please explain what justified the anarchy we say in the Netherlands ? 

[Nearholmer]

I’m not seeking to justify what happened in Rotterdam.

 

FWIW, I suspect that what is going-on in The Netherlands is a toxic cocktail of generally hacked-off and disposed youth, far-right extremists who usually get their kicks (literally) by rioting under the flag of various football clubs, bonkers anti-vaxxers, mainstream libertarian right fellow-travellers (national-populism polls >10% in Dutch elections), anarchists, and probably a sprinkling of Russian and American (with different agendas) agents provocateur.

 

The social division amplified by the pandemic is fertile ground for anyone who enjoys stirring-up a load of trouble, which I think is what you said.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

This should never be tolerated as it leads to anarchy  

 

 

Did you really mean that? . In probably a too frivolous way, I did suggest that we do not go there.

It should be pretty clear where I stand on this one but how about Wat Tyler, The Boston Tea Party, Prague Spring and a few others that I can think of for starters. There are situations where the end justifies the means.

Bernard

[rocor]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Sometimes, it takes a lesser wrong to right a far greater wrong, sadly.

 

There are plenty of examples where people have been driven to riot because they have had no other effective mechanism open to them by which to get a perfectly reasonable point across. That wouldn’t be the case if incumbent regimes were always fair and reasonable, but they aren’t always. The status quo that gets labelled “a civilised society” isn’t always one that stands up to even the slightest moral examination.

 

Worth bearing in mind too that what constitutes “riot” is defined by the incumbent regime, in the present code of law. It isn’t an immutable thing, and a favourite trick of oppressive regimes is to define near-trivial acts of dissent as “riot”, to give a fig-leaf of cover when they crack down on. That young guy who got squashed like a fly by a ruddy great tank in Tianmen Square might well have been “rioting” by the definition by applied there and then.

 

I’m not for one moment saying that is the case here, but I am saying “never say never”.

 

Rioting, it seems to me, is an ineffective mode of protest, be it in a democratic or a despotic society. It also has the major disadvantage, that the rioters are putting their heads up over the barricades, so becoming recognized, and thus an easy target for any repercussions that may occur. The price that will be paid for this, will vary, dependent on the repressiveness of the societies involved.

 

If disruption is the aim of the game, then anonymity would seem to be advantageous. 

[Nearholmer]

35 minutes ago, rocor said:

If disruption is the aim of the game, then anonymity would seem to be advantageous

This really needs a thread of its own, because “Can rioting ever be justified?” Is a pretty huge topic, but riots can start in different ways, and they often begin as peaceful mass protestations, which are either deliberately hijacked by trouble-makers (could be on the side of the rioters, or the authorities), spill over into spontaneous craziness, or are policed in a way that either accidentally or deliberately provokes a riot.

 

As part of a political change process, most riots seem to be outbursts, in the sense of pent-up frustration boiling-over, and they can act to empower sympathetic non-participants, by making clear to them that others feel even more strongly than they do. They can also act to bring-on even greater oppression, which in turn provokes wider mass participation in the movement for change.

 

Or, they can be semi-orchestrated by the regime, in order to cause the populace to vent its frustrations on, usually, minorities, rather than direct it at the real target, or to whip-up a frenzy of support. Some pogroms, some instances of Hindu-Muslim and vice versa massacres, possibly one or two massacres of black citizens by white in the Southern USA, and others fall into the ‘regime-instigated’ bracket. Getting mega-controversial, many suggest that the events at the US Capitol recently do too.

 

There are entire academic theses and text-books on the subject.

[Neil]

Sort of back on topic, Mrs R has just had her booster at our local health centre. This time it was a team from Bangor doing the vaccinating. She was told by them that they were there because of the level of abuse from the anti-vax brigade directed at the local staff.

[Nearholmer]

That is both sad and bizarre.

 

This is interesting https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59350975

 

We went to the theatre yesterday evening, an excursion that I had mixed feelings about, and entry was very much "covid passport holders only" for >18yo. The show was pitched at children as well as adults, so lots of children and teenagers, our two included, in the audience, and that combined with the obvious weaknesses of the passport system, and very patchy mask-wearing (none by children, obviously, and most adults who started-out wearing one taking theirs off once seated) meant that it was probably the highest covid-risk situation we've been in. The show was absolutely excellent though!

[Hobby]

Now you'll just have to wait to see how you got on! Rather like my trip out on Friday to look at a car, 4 3/4 hrs by train and bus each way (and a wasted journey!), all was OK until Doncaster to Sheffield where the 158 was packed and I mistimed things on the final leg as I joined the school special where the train gets packed out at Hagley with kids... I'm now waiting to see if I've got the damned virus or not...

Edited November 21, 2021 by Hobby

[hayfield]

17 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Did you really mean that? . In probably a too frivolous way, I did suggest that we do not go there.

It should be pretty clear where I stand on this one but how about Wat Tyler, The Boston Tea Party, Prague Spring and a few others that I can think of for starters. There are situations where the end justifies the means.

Bernard

 

 

You forget the other side of the coin, Russia etc where millions were imprisoned even killed for the sake of repression. But then we are not talking about this but unmerited unrest, in the name of not complying with medical emergency measures. Pure and simple criminality.

 

Yet we see again unrest in Europe again last night, whilst the epidemic ravages through their society. Simple wanton disorder for the sake of it. If this is condoned then society is lost. The focus needs to be on beating the virus, not damaging others property. What about the freedom of the masses not to have their property stolen or destroyed by a bunch of rioters?

[Neil]

Oh dear, it's that man again.

[Hobby]

Most people on the train in the "North" where I was on Friday didn't wear masks either... It's not compulsory.