Chuffnell Regis

[Graham T]

And I assume that this idea

 

Is also a non-starter?

Again, please excuse my complete lack of knowledge of things electrical.  I'm not being lazy here, I've read lots about layout wiring and DCC but just can't seem to get my head around it for some reason...

[Neal Ball]

8 hours ago, Graham T said:

And I assume that this idea

 

Is also a non-starter?

Again, please excuse my complete lack of knowledge of things electrical.  I'm not being lazy here, I've read lots about layout wiring and DCC but just can't seem to get my head around it for some reason...

Sorry to join this party late. 
 

You need to solder to the left of your blue dots, with the feed from the autofrog going on the cable that hangs down below the point at the frog (Peco points have a in-sheathed cable hanging down, solder the autofrog feed onto that)

 

I will photograph my points when I get to the layout later for you.

[Graham T]

Good morning Neal, thanks for that.  I took a look at the Gaugemaster autofrogs last night; they (as you know I think) have two connections to the track feeds, which are simple enough* to do under the baseboards without disturbing any trackwork.  But the other feed to the long thin wire hanging from the Peco frog gives me a problem - the points are laid and so that wire isn't accessible.  Would wiring that feed from the autofrog to the vee of the point work?  It looks to me as if it should

 

 

*  Well, apart from that my wiring looks like a snakes' wedding...

[Neal Ball]

13 minutes ago, Graham T said:

Good morning Neal, thanks for that.  I took a look at the Gaugemaster autofrogs last night; they (as you know I think) have two connections to the track feeds, which are simple enough* to do under the baseboards without disturbing any trackwork.  But the other feed to the long thin wire hanging from the Peco frog gives me a problem - the points are laid and so that wire isn't accessible.  Would wiring that feed from the autofrog to the vee of the point work?  It looks to me as if it should

 

 

*  Well, apart from that my wiring looks like a snakes' wedding...

Yes that definitely works, I have replaced the down cable on a couple of points and successfully wire this to the autofrog. In my wiring this is universally yellow. I see a yellow cable and know it’s the autofrog cable all the time.

 

 

It then looks as if all my points in the station have this additional dropper

 

 

In some cases I have then used that as the feed to the rails, which you can just make out on the top rail. The lower rails dropper is hidden by the ballast.

 

Hope that helps

[Graham T]

14 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Yes that definitely works, I have replaced the down cable on a couple of points and successfully wire this to the autofrog. In my wiring this is universally yellow. I see a yellow cable and know it’s the autofrog cable all the time.

 

 

It then looks as if all my points in the station have this additional dropper

 

 

In some cases I have then used that as the feed to the rails, which you can just make out on the top rail. The lower rails dropper is hidden by the ballast.

 

Hope that helps

 

That's a huge help, thanks very much.  Sending you a (virtual) case of beer!

 

Now I'd better order some more autofrogs from Hattons, and get the soldering iron warmed up...

[Graham T]

By the way, do you fit droppers before laying your track, or lay the track first and then solder on the droppers from above the baseboard?

 

I've done the former, but found it quite tricky to coordinate everything, if that makes sense.

[Harlequin]

If you haven't cut the links under the turnouts at the blue dots then there's not much point (haha) connecting a "frog juicer" to the frog.

The frog polarity will be switched by the turnout itself all the time and the the frog juicer will just follow that polarity.

 

Similarly, if you haven't cut the links then making the connections between stock rails and closure rails suggested by Neal will create a dead short circuit.

 

Any of the clever stuff to improve electrofrogs has to be done before they are laid (unless you're willing to cut rails in situ). But many people use them out of the packet perfectly happily.

 

Edit: Do you have a fibre glass pencil? They are great for cleaning between the point blade and the rail to get good electrical connection. Just remember not to touch the fibres that break off and hoover up afterwards.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Harlequin

[Neal Ball]

3 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

If you haven't cut the links under the turnouts at the blue dots then there's not much point (haha) connecting a "frog juicer" to the frog.

The frog polarity will be switched by the turnout itself all the time and the the frog juicer will just follow that polarity.

 

Similarly, if you haven't cut the links then making the connections between stock rails and closure rails suggested by Neal will create a dead short circuit.

 

Any of the clever stuff to improve electrofrogs has to be done before they are laid. But many people use them out of the packet perfectly happily.

 

Yes of course…. Mine will all have been cut off before track laying started. Sorry @Graham T

 

To answer your other question Graham, my droppers were all added on the bench and splayed out in situ and then holes cut. Does that sense? But you can easy add them at this stage. Drill a hole, bring the wire up and solder….

 

I found the worst bit of the track laying process was getting the correct holes aligned underneath for the point motor. That was a real pain…. Which is probably why the fiddle yard is manual.

[Graham T]

5 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Yes of course…. Mine will all have been cut off before track laying started. Sorry @Graham T

 

To answer your other question Graham, my droppers were all added on the bench and splayed out in situ and then holes cut. Does that sense? But you can easy add them at this stage. Drill a hole, bring the wire up and solder….

 

I found the worst bit of the track laying process was getting the correct holes aligned underneath for the point motor. That was a real pain…. Which is probably why the fiddle yard is manual.

 

Thanks both.  Looks like I have come back around to square one!  I'm now seriously regretting (a) not modifying the points before laying them, and (b) not being more careful when I weathered the trackwork.

[Graham T]

18 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Edit: Do you have a fibre glass pencil? They are great for cleaning between the point blade and the rail to get good electrical connection. Just remember not to touch the fibres that break off and hoover up afterwards.

 

 

I do Phil - will certainly give that a try.  Would lightly rubbing on some graphite to the contact surfaces help as well?

 

Strangely, some of my locos are far more sensitive to these points than others.

[Neal Ball]

4 minutes ago, Graham T said:

 

I do Phil - will certainly give that a try.  Would lightly rubbing on some graphite to the contact surfaces help as well?

 

Strangely, some of my locos are far more sensitive to these points than others.

If the issue is locos not liking the point blade, a fibre glass pencil will certainly help… as will the droppers in my previous photo (2nd of the two photos)

[Graham T]

5 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

If the issue is locos not liking the point blade, a fibre glass pencil will certainly help… as will the droppers in my previous photo (2nd of the two photos)

 

Is that dropper soldered to both of the top two rails?  (As in top two in the photo)  And then similar of course for the bottom two.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Graham T

[Harlequin]

23 minutes ago, Graham T said:

 

I do Phil - will certainly give that a try.  Would lightly rubbing on some graphite to the contact surfaces help as well?

 

Strangely, some of my locos are far more sensitive to these points than others.

Graphite won't help unless the rail underneath is conductive - i.e. clean. It might help keep the surfaces clean after you've cleaned them some other way.

 

Before you spend too much time on anything else it might be worth using a multi-meter to check that the frogs of the problem turnouts have got good connections for both routes. If they have then the track electrics might not be the problem because it sounds like the pickups on the problem locos might need adjusting. And some locos are better at using all their pickups than others...

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Harlequin

[Neal Ball]

1 minute ago, Harlequin said:

Graphite won't help unless the rail underneath is conductive - i.e. clean. It might help keep the surfaces clean after you've cleaned them some other way.

 

Before you spend too much time on anything else it might be worth using a multi-meter to check that the frogs of the problem turnouts have got good connections for both routes. If they have then the electrics might not be the problem because it sounds like the pickups on the problem locos might need adjusting. And some locos are better at using all their pickups than others...

 

In terms of fault finding, I agree with Phil as per above. It might help to video your problem loco(s)

 

Is it always the same loco; same point? What about the same loco, turned round 180 degrees does it happen then as well? If it does that would suggest a loco issue….

 

A video will also help. Good luck.

[Graham T]

Just now, Neal Ball said:

In terms of fault finding, I agree with Phil as per above. It might help to video your problem loco(s)

 

Is it always the same loco; same point? What about the same loco, turned round 180 degrees does it happen then as well? If it does that would suggest a loco issue….

 

A video will also help. Good luck.

 

Couldn't agree more.  Time to get out the glass fibre pencil and the multi-meter.  I ran all my locos last night, to make a note of the various decoders they have.  Some run very nicely indeed, including second-hand ones, and others run horribly - including some of the brand new ones!  So I need to do a little analysis of that, and then work on each individual loco that has running problems.  Apart from cleaning and then light oiling, I'm also thinking that checking the pick-ups and back to backs will be needed.  

[Graham T]

With many thanks (again!) to @Neal Ball and @Harlequin for steering me back onto the path of sanity, or what passes for it around here anyway.  Wholesale ripping up of track has been averted; some burnishing with a glass fibre pencil has indeed helped with my troublesome trackwork.  I think some loco fettling should also make a difference.

 

Of course I had to do some testing during my lunch break as well   Here's 3206 coasting gently over the bridge as she approaches Chuffnell R...

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Graham T

[MrWolf]

Very nice, that's one of the few locos that I would like to add to my collection, but all I've found so far are BR black.

[Graham T]

18 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Very nice, that's one of the few locos that I would like to add to my collection, but all I've found so far are BR black.

 

I've only seen DCC ones, which I don't think is your cup of tea?

[MrWolf]

They did do DCC ready ones at about £140, but all that seems to be available is DCC BR black for about another £100.

I missed two used ones last year because I was out and couldn't get a phone signal. 

I'll turn one up at some point, it's not like it's life or death.

[Graham T]

I could sell you a very nice DC Dean Goods; looks similar if you squint in a darkened room!  

[MrWolf]

I've got quite a few of those to put a decent loco drive chassis under.... Eventually!

 

Although they run reasonably well. I suppose that any of the old tender drive jobs that have survived this long and still run must have been half decent to start with.

[Andrew P]

6 hours ago, Graham T said:

 

That's a huge help, thanks very much.  Sending you a (virtual) case of beer!

 

Now I'd better order some more autofrogs from Hattons, and get the soldering iron warmed up...

DCC80 Gaugemaster Autofrogs are brilliant, I had them all over Seven Mills Sidings. A great invention.

[Graham T]

21 minutes ago, Andrew P said:

DCC80 Gaugemaster Autofrogs are brilliant, I had them all over Seven Mills Sidings. A great invention.

 

I'll definitely be using them throughout on Chuffnell Regis Mk II.  Along with ready made baseboards.  And perhaps some nicer points as well, to go with the Code 75 bullhead rail.

[Andrew P]

1 minute ago, Graham T said:

 

I'll definitely be using them throughout on Chuffnell Regis Mk II.  Along with ready made baseboards.  And perhaps some nicer points as well, to go with the Code 75 bullhead rail.

Peco Bullhead Points don't need Autofrogs, they are built in.

[Andrew P]

Just now, Andrew P said:

Peco Bullhead Points don't need Autofrogs, they are built in.

When I say built in, you treat them as a normal Point and the plastic V is so small and the Rail V is pre wired.