BALLAST - non granite types

[PMP99]

I believe granite based ballast, like that supplied by Gaugemaster, will discolour when fixed with dilute PVA.

 

Can anyone advise which of the commercially readily available ballasts are not granite based?

[Pete the Elaner]

There's a better way: Change your adhesive, not the ballast.

Try dilute Copydex instead. I've fixed some Gaugemaster ballast with this only today with no discolouration.

It also dries quicker & slightly flexible, so your ballast will not keep flaking away like it does when secured with PVA, which is a resin.

 

I find it much more suitable for ballasting than dilute PVA.

 

Why not try it on a short section of test track?

[buffalo]

There's a better way: Change your adhesive, not the ballast.

Try dilute Copydex instead...

The drawback is the smell Every so often I think I might try this method as several people strongly recommend it. However, I only have to remove the lid from the bottle to change my mind.

 

Some of us have had good results using Johnson's Klear but, unfortunately it is getting increasingly difficult to obtain.

 

Nick

[PMP99]

There's a better way: Change your adhesive, not the ballast.

Try dilute Copydex instead. I've fixed some Gaugemaster ballast with this only today with no discolouration.

It also dries quicker & slightly flexible, so your ballast will not keep flaking away like it does when secured with PVA, which is a resin.

 

I find it much more suitable for ballasting than dilute PVA.

 

Why not try it on a short section of test track?

 

Pete the Elaner

 

What dilution of the copydex did you use?

[craigwelsh]

Greenscenes and Woodland Scenics are some sort of cork or nut shell based ballast and work fine with PVA. Personally I now prefer greenscenes as used by the club (shown in the picture below) on our recent relaying due the the tonal variation out of the bag. Remember to buy the 'N gauge' variety for 4mm!

 

 

Track laid and ballasted in one go with PVA, no ballast weathering done yet.

 

I've tried Klear on ballast and always find the pipette tends to move the ballast around when the Klear is dripped on. Might just be me though.

[PMP99]

Greenscenes and Woodland Scenics are some sort of cork or nut shell based ballast and work fine with PVA. Personally I now prefer greenscenes as used by the club (shown in the picture below) on our recent relaying due the the tonal variation out of the bag. Remember to buy the 'N gauge' variety for 4mm!

 

 

Track laid and ballasted in one go with PVA, no ballast weathering done yet.

 

I've tried Klear on ballast and always find the pipette tends to move the ballast around when the Klear is dripped on. Might just be me though.

 

Thanks for posting the picture. Yes, the tonal variation looks good

[Coombe Barton]

This thread - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/13264-whats-cutting-edge-in-tracklaying - has quite a few suggestions.

[PhilH]

You don't have to buy it - read how Chris Nevard did it on Combwich.

[MikeTrice]

Try Hornby SkaleScenics. Does not discolour with PVA but still heavy enough not to move when adhesive applied.

[Pete the Elaner]

Pete the Elaner

 

What dilution of the copydex did you use?

I'm not very accurate about it. I guess about 50/50 with some fairy to reduce surface tension.

I've read IPA is better than fairy, but I can't get on with it. Maybe I'm not using enough but I've found it increases surface tension:blink:

 

With regards to other postings about the ballast moving when water/glue is dripped on, I have do this from point blank range & also drop onto the sleepers instead of directly onto the ballast.

[Mucky Duck]

Greenscenes and Woodland Scenics are some sort of cork or nut shell based ballast and work fine with PVA. Personally I now prefer greenscenes as used by the club (shown in the picture below) on our recent relaying due the the tonal variation out of the bag. Remember to buy the 'N gauge' variety for 4mm!

 

Craig, is Greenscenes 'N gauge' ballast ever so slightly finer than the Woodland Scenics equivalent? Looks it from that photo

[craigwelsh]

Craig, is Greenscenes 'N gauge' ballast ever so slightly finer than the Woodland Scenics equivalent? Looks it from that photo

Potentially, i'll try to remember when I go tomorrow as we have some Woodland Scenics still as well.

 

With regards to other postings about the ballast moving when water/glue is dripped on, I have do this from point blank range & also drop onto the sleepers instead of directly onto the ballast.

It'd trash the look of the trackwork shown earlier if an attempt was made to drip the glue onto the sleepers. I do it from point blank as you say but it can leave a sheen on sleepers I wouldn't want. More spot ballasting is needed to cover the droppers and some gaps on that shown but i'll be only dropping glue onto the affected area.

[bertiedog]

Yes, the granite ballast does tend to turn a green sheen after PVA has been used, or in fact most varnishes as well, but this beggars the question why worry?....... as the ballast should be painted afterwards, otherwise you are missing out a whole step in the process for a realistic finish to the ballast.

 

When I lay ballast, and I do not buy in commercial, but use soil, and sand graded with sieves, the laid material is first given a coat of thin matt black, a very thin wash that only settles in the structure and down the gaps.

 

Then a thicker general colour is sprayed on very sparingly, which leaves the basic black in the background. The sleepers are hand painted brown tar, and then the whole ballast is dry brushed with white to pick up the highlights. It gives a more 3d effect, and brings out chair details etc., which are finished in brushed rust colour.

 

When soil is used I put it though the oven to sterilise it, and also put a propane flame over it to burn off any organic materials. The sieves are old domestic tea and other sieves plus a brass mesh one.

 

The other consistent sand I have used is hamster and rodent sand from pet shops, cheap and consistent size grains.

Stephen.

[locoshed]

I decided to use C&L Finescale N 2mm grey ballast and copydex, it looks good and doesn`t transmit the sound to the baseboard as much as pva and granite ballast

[craigwelsh]

Yes, the granite ballast does tend to turn a green sheen after PVA has been used, or in fact most varnishes as well, but this beggars the question why worry?....... as the ballast should be painted afterwards, otherwise you are missing out a whole step in the process for a realistic finish to the ballast.

 

Stephen.

Would you suggest then that the photo shown above has an unrealistic shade of ballast?

[Mucky Duck]

Would you suggest then that the photo shown above has an unrealistic shade of ballast?

 

Sorry to butt-in here but I think the 'green' comment may have been instigated by the fact that your image has a bit too much green

in it. The colour balance was out, so I've brought it closer to what it should be. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it should now look

closer to the real thing… and a very good ballast colour in my eyes.

[craigwelsh]

Sorry to butt-in here but I think the 'green' comment may have been instigated by the fact that your image has a bit too much green

in it. The colour balance was out, so I've brought it closer to what it should be.

Thanks, that has improved the colour reproduction a lot, I really must learn how to sort out colour balances myself. The green issue Bertiedog mentioned won't affect that ballast though as it isn't granite, I was just contending his belief that you "must paint ballast".

[bertiedog]

So nobody weathers stock?...... the painting is to get the right effects and adds to the contrast and weathers and softens the colours.

 

No ballast in one colour, it has a multitude of shades in a sample, and the washes, repeat, washes, and fine colouring do not obliterate the basic shade, with the black settling into the texture to make any texture stronger. The dry brushing with white or lighter shades just catches the surfaces and gives a better effect than plain, bringing out fine detail and defining edges.

 

 

All of this is done in standard Diorama work, leaving a plain ballast makes it look plain, and it can be improved in realism.

 

Stephen.

[57xx]

Bertiedog, have you got any pictures of ballasted track you have done as mentioned above, for comparison?

[craigwelsh]

So nobody weathers stock?...... the painting is to get the right effects and adds to the contrast and weathers and softens the colours.

Stephen.

I wasn't talking about weathering, I was talking about your painting comment.

 

My point was that if you buy the ballast i've illustrated you have a correct variation in shades of ballast to look right for new ballast. You can then weather it down to replicate oil/coal/brakedust or just the rain etc but you have a good base.

 

Obviously if you do use soil it does need painting a decent base first but I can't imagine many getting away with oven cooking soil (yes dear i'm making chocolate cake..).

 

Leaving a plain ballast plain is indeed incorrect but this isn't plain and when I did use plain woodland scenics I found it very difficult to try to correctly add the tonal variation to individual pieces.

 

Note that the above is going to be on an L&Y based layout based on colour shots, my S.Wales interest shows a lot of dirty buff coloured ballast instead and other areas have a much finer ballast or ash that sand is better for as shown on Chris Nevard's layout.

[bertiedog]

I haven't at the moment, but will be doing some for the Stewartstown shortline in the next few weeks through the summer. A lot is semi overgrown and will require grass effects as well, but leaving the track clear for running. This will be using sand as the basic ballast, (in HO scale), and flocked dyed wool for the grass effects.

 

Stephen.

[Pete the Elaner]

Yes, the granite ballast does tend to turn a green sheen after PVA has been used, or in fact most varnishes as well, but this beggars the question why worry?....... as the ballast should be painted afterwards, otherwise you are missing out a whole step in the process for a realistic finish to the ballast.

 

Only true for heavily weathered track. Prototypical weathering is variable & the above approach does not allow it. For light weathering, you need to get the base colours as close as possible first.

[bertiedog]

How does a "an approach" as variable and comprehensive as I mentioned, to paint the ballast with colour washes to match the prototype, become "does not allow it".

 

There is a difference between advising about painting the track, which can be as much as you want, to as little as you need, and assumption that I have advised something that I have not.

The OP asked for alternatives to Granite, which is prone to go a lurid green with PVA glues, (and other varnishes as well to different degrees). Many natural stones alter colour with wet, and the PVA adds a wet effect and a sheen due to the glue as well. Sand does not alter too much as it is basically glass in structure, However there is still the sheen effect from the glue. Copydex acts differently to PVA, latex does not seem to have the sheen effect.

 

Many alternative ballasts exist, I use natural materials as well as granite when suitable for the prototype. As granite has this wet sheen, and it looks worst in florescent lighting, then painting the colour is the answer.

 

But the bigger point is that of using ballast as bought, it is only realistic for newly ballasted track, and also scale effects exist, the crushed granite straight from the pack does not look exactly like the real thing.

 

The colour of most ballast in the real world is complex, don't not look at the overall effect or colour, but have a hard and discriminating look at a sample area of the crushed stone. It shimmers, has areas of matt and gloss, variable colour and colour patches. When we look at the overall view also contrast is involved between the bright surface and the shadows.

 

The first fix on the model to improve the appearance and "depth" of the texture is to darken the shadows of the structure of the surface, this is done by a simple wash of matt black paint, well thinned down to a point where it does not leave paint on the actual ballast surfaces. Acrylic matt black or water colour can also be used.

 

The effect is to tone down the basic ballast colours and the paint settles in the gaps and crannies, covering traces of the glues, and will soak through to mask any trace of the board etc., showing as well, as a bonus. It may need a few goes to get the right effect.

 

Next the overall colour is added to the natural colour of the granite, sand or any other suitable medium. This can be as little as you want, to a fuller coat to alter the colour. If the colour is correct then this stage can be left out completely. The paint used should be very well thinned and have varnish added as well to aid transparency, the base colours of the ballast must show through.

 

I spray the track colour with an airbrush, it settles as a thin mist to "catch the surface", it does not get into the crannies where the black wash has settled earlier.

 

At this stage I paint the tar brown sleepers, (if you want to), the colour varies between weathered grey to a deep brown/black for fresh wood sleepered track.

 

The next step is the rust colour sides on the rails, and the track fixtures, chairs, spikes or retainers. A thin wash of rust can be put just under the rails on the ballast and around any trackside rusty items.

 

The final touch is to increase the contrast range further and this is dry brushing a lighter top coat over most items. This catches just the high points on the ballast and items like the chairs. it is a delicate and defining process and should be subtle in overall effect. Pure white can be used, but this may increase the contrast too much, be careful not to overdo the effect

 

If the colours are chosen carefully the texture will look like the real things texture at a normal viewing distance.

 

My own experience in this comes from designing and building museum dioramas and landscape displays as well as a commercial model maker. It is an art to get it right, subtle effects are needed, but is is far better than track with plain ballast.

 

Stephen.

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

a good few mess. ago someone mentioned about when dropping the water/PVA mix on to the ballast it moves.

 

Now I may be teaching granny but have you tried spraying the ballast with a water/ Fairy mix from a plant mister, the sort that is used for indoor plants. Spray about a foot then drip the PVA mix on, you should find that this will help to brake down the surface tension. As the ballast is wet / damp. The spray from the mister is so gentle it should not move the ballast.

 

You might pick one up from a pound shop for about a fiver. .

 

OzzyO.

[Mucky Duck]

The colour of most ballast in the real world is complex, don't not look at the overall effect or colour, but have a hard and discriminating look at a sample area of the crushed stone. It shimmers, has areas of matt and gloss, variable colour and colour patches. When we look at the overall view also contrast is involved between the bright surface and the shadows.

Stephen.

 

I must admit that I bought ballasting which I thought would suit the 'general' nature of the prototype that I'm modelling.

I did spray the track/ballast with Precision Paints 'Rusty Rails' and 'Coal Dust Effect' to tone it down… but it still doesn't

look quite right. The more I observed the prototype, the more I realised that no two areas looked the same…freshly-laid

pale ballast of one line contrasting sharply with old oily, rust and dust-laiden ballast on the line beside etc. I've (finally)

come to the conclusion that painting ballast and trackwork and getting it to look like the prototype is an art form in itself.

 

I'd be most interested to see your Stewartstown work.