Dymented - the Serious stuff starts!

[The Stationmaster]

Phillip - being very mindful of the purpose of that beam is there any way it could be replicated at a greater height above floor level where it would still tie the roof properly?  And could the ridge be supported in any other way?

[Philou]

@The Stationmaster Hallo Mike, or should that be bonsoir? I have now reached the beam and gone beyond (no photo tonight). I was pondering on that very same question as my head flirted with the underside of the beam (thanks to @DonB for the hard-hat suggestion - I do have several!).

 

I'll need to take some photos and make a sketch of how it all hangs together up there. Basically, the beam is attached to a huuuuuge post at the edge of my new frame (visible in the last photos on the previous page) but the post does not coincide with the ridge. There are a pair of beams attached to the post at an angle and lodged in the wall, also seen in the photos. These two beams hold a queen (?) post that supports the ridge. Joining the top of the queen post and back to the wall is another huuuuuge beam that supports the purlins holding up the rest of the roof.

 

The only way I can see to remove the double beam would be to remove the purlins (they're jointed on the other big beam) and replace them with an RSJ of an appropriate dimension - the span is of the order of 7.0m - and cut short and raise the double beam to rest on the RSJ and amend the rest of the existing wood work accordingly. We're now talking BIG engineering works and I expect a fair bit of cash. I've reroofed the barn twice already - but the question of a rail room in the space wasn't really being considered at the time - if only I knew then what I know now, eh?

 

Works in progress for tomorrow will be: Baking my Christmas cake (it's famous in the village now, especially the one of two years ago that weighed in at 5kg (11 lbs)), and doing my Christmas cards, otherwise I shall miss the deadlines. In the afternoon, I shall go back to the barn. Also a quick back-of-fag packet calculations shows I'm going to be a couple of planks short (I know, I know, I'm already short of a few ). it's the ones I used in the stairs. I shall have to re-order.

 

Cheers for now and photos tomorrow,

 

Philip

 

 

[Philou]

Well chums, another satisfactory albeit short day working in the loft. I am at the distance at which I originally intended to have my layout. Following discussion and suggestions about this layout on the other thread, I am at the point of flooring over the cantilever section (hooray). There are about 7 lengths to go - but I shan't finish tomorrow as I shall have an awful lot of trimming to do due to the wall being at odd angles - the finishing line should be achieved on Sunday - missing planks notwithstanding. I rang my builders' merchant this pm, and he does have some in stock and so I have reserved 5 extra for finishing and making the stairwell trap-door - I haven't even begun to think how to make that.

 

Monday will probably see the scaffolding come down and the space cleared for the two set of stairs to be put in place. If all goes well, they should be completely out of the dining area by Wednesday. After that will be the very boring job of drilling, countersinking and screwing the planks down - just fixed at their ends and centres at the moment.

 

Here are a couple of photos of the works so far:

 

 

 

In other news, I baked my Christmas cakes this morning, but managed to miss the postie, so sorry guys, your cards may be late this year .

 

The next post concerns the beam and post arrangement that is probably going to cause me a few issues - engineering proposals would be welcome.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Philou

[Philou]

The beams and posts:

 

In this photo you can see the main post from which a pair of beams are raked back to meet at the wall plate of the wall (behind me):

 

 

About 1/3rd the distance away from the post, is a queen post that holds up the roof ridge. From this queen post are two 200 x 200mm (8" x 8") beams that support the two pitches of the roof and their respective purlins:

 

 

A supporting truss about midway. Note that the lower and upper timbers are at an angle - nothing is horizontal:

 

 

The purlins are jointed over the main supporting beam:

 

 

The meeting of the double beam with the wall. The uppermost beam stops short of the wall and is supported wholly by the double beam at this point; Here the beam is about 1.25m above my finished floor level. there will be about 400mm clearance between it and the baseboard, not a lot:

 

 

In taking the photos not only did I find an axe (bonus) that must have been left when we re-roofed 10 years ago , but this:

 

 

ROT!!!! Not a lot but enough to make me go eeek!! Must have wetted over the years and was only sorted when I did the roofing works.

 

What to do? Leave well alone (treat the rot of course) and live with a duck under? I cannot see an easy solution that won't involve undoing the roof and some major new works. Of course, had I realised that the beam was THAT low (it looked an awful way up from the ground!), I would have set the floor 400mm lower and re-arranged the works accordingly - too late for that approach, I'm afraid.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

I tend to agree.  What may not be appreciated by the Stationmaster is that a lot of French roof timbers are designed to handle a snow loading on the roof that would be unlikely in England and most of the British Isles.  The long cross beam will allow an amount of deflection under load.  Raise it up and it becomes shorter and it is less able to handle a heavy snow load.

 

More pronounced where we are and our king post sits in a slot in the cross member but is not attached and actually looks like a poor fit with the tenon starting a good centimetre above the cross beam.  Under heavy snow load the roof flexes downwards until the king post is actually supported by the cross beam and then the cross beam starts to flex as well (or  at least that is how it works when we get that much snow although I have seen the "gap" close up quite a bit).

[JeffP]

I'd leave well alone.

We have similar in the barn conversion bit of ours, the beam is visible fully only in one position, that's the entry vestibule to our bedroom.

Elsewhere its visible but incorporated in dividing walls.

 

Like yours, ours had rotted off at the inner end and was supported on a round beam wedged upright.

When we had the barn area floored the French builder rested the end onto a breezeblock wall that divides the lower part and went about 1200 mm out into the upper part. I extended it as dividing wall between bathroom and ensuite, so tiled both sides.

 

Height of ours is around 1700 mm, so could scalp me at 1745. Wife passes under it before being in a wheelchair.

I've had two signs engraved in black on yellow saying "mind your head, attention la tete".

No accidents so far. They are 200 x 120.

 

For screwing down, do you have a bit that does pilot, clearance and countersink in one go? or just clearance countersink?

Makes life very easy.

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by JeffP
Spolling

[Philou]

Thanks chaps for your thoughts.

 

@Andy Hayter Cor! When I read that .......

15 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Under heavy snow load the roof flexes downwards until the king post is actually supported by the cross beam and then the cross beam starts to flex as well (or  at least that is how it works when we get that much snow although I have seen the "gap" close up quite a bit).

  ...... I had that oo-er moment. I suspect ours flexes as well, though we had snow yesterday, there wasn't really enough to tell.

 

@JeffP Yes, I have a pilot/countersinker by Wolf. Fits in the hexagonal drive of my Parkside cordless. Works well too. My clearance headroom is 1m73 (on a good day).

 

When I'm in the mood, I shall draw this timberwork onto my 3D plan that is WiP. I may turn the whole layout about to see if my fiddle yard/sector plate could be placed under the low headroom area and leave the open end where there's more clearance. I go under that part without any issues. It means the Malvern Hills will be part of the beam - but I can live with that! I'll take some detailed measurements tomorrow.

 

Insofar as the floor laying is concerned, I have no more planks, I have come to the end, and the end of the cantilevered section, that was the limit of the second iteration of the plan. It just leaves the outriggers to be covered and a lot of angled cuts. So not a bad point with which to end for today.

 

Seeing as I've finished woodworking, tomorrow will be taking down the scaffolding, though I have to create a bit of space to stock it. It means then Monday is taking the stairs apart and re-erecting them in the barn. I expect the big one will take all day on its own.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Andy Hayter]

Re the flexing under load, we had about 75cm snow a few years ago and the gap between the end of the tenon and the cross beam closed from around 1cm to perhaps 5mm - so it would take around 1.5m snow on the roof before the gap would close completely.  We know that can happen here but have never "enjoyed" that much.

 

So the amounts of flex are small - which they need to be since wood under tension is strong but under bending (as per the cross beams) is relatively weak.

[The Stationmaster]

What the assembly does is too things.  The horizontal timber holds the the lowesst part of the two roof pitches together to stop them splaying outwards underload while the vertical post in the centre supports the ridge to stop it falling and increasing pressure on the two st ides of the roof causing them to splay outwards.  if you see photos of (or see an actual roof dridece which s not level but goes up & down in waves the peaks of those waves are where this arrangement has been inserted into the roof and they provide enough support to stop the troughs splaying out too far.

 

It's a very common method of strengthening a roof ridge and tying the bottom of the roof properly on the plate on top of the walls to prevent splay.  Frequently used in older roofs which are beginning to sag and splay but also sometimes used in new build as well (I've got exactly the same arrangement in the large shed in my garden - it s built that way).   The height at which the horizontal beam is fixed can vary and it doesn't necessarily have to rest on the plate although this one is made with some very substantial timbers.

 

In this case it looks as if it was added to deal with a problem in the relatively shallow pitched roof but sometimes the horizontal timbers  can bedded quite high up and in a light roof the use of sheet material is an alternative

[Philou]

Oh!! All my wood has gone! And so has my scaffolding!! Just a big pile of off-cuts that can go into the burner (a couple of days worth):

 

 

 

Now where did all that wood go? Well, up there of course :

 

 

I did take some measurements of the big beams that I shall then draw onto the 3D plan. It'll take a day or so. I shan't do it this afternoon because as I managed to take all the scaffolding down before lunch, I really really really must do my cards now - but I never find the courage until it's almost too late.

 

Cheers everyone and have a good Sunday,

 

Philip

 

[Philou]

I did all my cards ready for posting on Monday.

 

Monday I set to with my trusty electric screwdriver and dismantled the larger of the two stairs - gone by lunchtime from our dining area and into the barn. In the afternoon, I manhandled the two stringers and steps 1 and 13 (tread and riser as pairs) into the railway room and proceeded to reassemble just the stringer and the two steps. Having done that I then had a bit of angst wondering whether I had done the right thing, as an assembled unit (without steps 2 - 12) was already mighty heavy, and was it more dangerous to then drop it through the stairwell to the mezzanine level or should I have done the construction on the mezzanine and then raised it though the stairwell and into the railway room.

 

It was getting late and I was cold having spent the early part of the afternoon planing the risers down to their finished widths and I left it as was.

 

This was Monday morning with more wood in the barn:

 

 

The stairs back in bits and trying to unwarp them a bit as drying in the house was perhaps a little rapid and the stringers had developed a distinct curl across their widths - lengthwise they were fine.

 

Come Tuesday....................................

 

 

[Philou]

Lay'neez an' gen'lmun ................ I present to you the saga of stair erecting ...................

 

On Monday evening having been to yet another birthday party across the road, two persons expressed their willingness to give me a hand to now drop the stair frame through the well and onto the mezzanine. So, at 10.30, Mr Mayor and I, up top, and Mr ex-Gendarme at the bottom with a cord pre-attached to the lower step - 'well, I'll go to the foot of our stairs' I thought - I didn't say it in French as they wouldn't have understood!

 

Mr Mayor and I gingerly launched the frame through the hole - 'It won't fit' he said - 'Bloody will', said I 'there's a 5mm air gap for it to fit'. A bit of a 'left-hand down a bit' and 'right hand up a bit' and 'steady as she goes' with Mr ex-Gendarme acting as the tug and down she went. Mr Mayor had an oo-er moment 'Don't let go! It'll drop through!!' 'Nah', said I nonchalantly, 'There's a batten screwed to the joist lower down to stop it at the right height AND the two joist hangers on either side will wedge it anyway'. And so it came to pass. A quick 'blish' and 'blosh' with my rubber mallet and down it went ......................

 

 

 

 

 

 

............ to the batten. 10 screws through the stringers and the top-most riser, that I had drilled out and countersunk on Sunday, and it was secured (there was a bit of a pull and push to get it tight against the joist).

 

By 10.50 we had this (me putting the paired risers and treads in place starting with No2 and working my way up):

 

 

and at 12.00 midday sharp, it was finished! Mrs Philou thinks I ought to put some handrails, she could be right:

 

 

I've been and down it several times without any undue creaks and groans so all is well.

 

In the afternoon, I dismantled the smaller stairs and that too is now in bits in the barn ready for tomorrow's construction. The pile of wood that was in the was has also been re-piled elsewhere. They're to go below the opening where the ladder is placed shown in the photo above.

 

Mrs Philou was well pleased as our dining area is back to normal AND clear a day earlier than I had anticipated.

 

[I think that she must like me (a bit at least) as a Mystery Christmas parcel arrived (I know it's for me as I was paying the VAT due when Mrs Philou came back from shopping on Saturday - she was rather miffed about that) and it was from Lord & Butler (I recognised the writing) but what is in the parcel? Must be fairly pricey as the VAT due was €29.]

 

I am ever so chuffed (sorry!). My first ever stairs and done basically on the fly - 3D plan was drawn though, for the basic concept - and a mystery gift.

 

Now what will tomorrow bring? I'll keep you posted.

 

Cheers everyone,

 

Philip

 

 

 

 

[Philou]

Cheers, chaps. Thanks for applause - it is really appreciated!!!

[Stubby47]

I think we have equal amounts of awe, jealousy and appreciation of craftsmanship in what you are achieving. 

[Philou]

@Stubby47 D'you know Stubby, that really touched me. Thank you and thank you all very much.

 

I've never been very good at carpentry and it's only after 71 years on this earth that I seem to be getting to grips with it. I hope that what I'm learning will help me when I get started on the layout in early 2022.

 

As for today's efforts, I proudly present the younger brother of the main staircase. This I can say is entirely my own work - no help in manhandling the stairs or assembling it in situ. My very first set of stairs. I have had the BiL who weighs in at 20st and Mrs Philou (she does NOT weigh 20st) go up and down a couple times without problem. I can also say that for the first time since 2007, we have a decent staircase to access the lower (and my railway room natch) parts of the barn:

 

 

...... and the stairway to heaven:

 

 

Tomorrow"s job will be quite light (so to speak) as I have to get a spotlight up there (I have the cable, the  plug and the LED spot - just need to assemble them as a unit) and then start on the drilling, countersinking and screwing of the floorboards. I will post a photo from time to time but there won't much to see for a day or two.

 

Cheers everyone (gosh, I am so excited!!!),

 

Philip

 

[MrWolf]

Always makes a change to see some hefty joinery going on instead of the usual baseboards. I've done a fair bit of it myself for other people.

This was the rather more prosaic solution in what passes for our loft, but we're not running trains up there! 

 

[JeffP]

"I love it when a plan comes together".

 

Reminds me of knocking a 1500mm x 900mm hole through a metre thick stone wall, then casting the opening out of cement including reinforcing.

 

The wife kept wanting to try the window in place, I kept insisting it would fit.

 

When we did put it in place it went in so well that it was almost held in place by the suction.

Satisfying.

 

Your construction looks great.

 

I'd say yes to handrails: if you miss a step descending.... that's possible disaster. Both sets.

 

What's the floor the bottom stairs are resting on?

 

Have you investigated LED battens for lighting? I put one in each cellar, with an illuminated switch above. More light and more discrete than spots.

[Philou]

@MrWolf Where? I can't see any!! Ta boom tish!

 

The attic within which I was when I were a lad and Noah in short trousers, looked very similar to yours before I set up my first layout - dark, cobwebby and dusty. At least yours has the luxury of being boarded under the tiles/slates. Ours was directly slated and not even any building paper between me and the elements.

 

@JeffP You are right, it does feel good - especially as I've waited all this time to get started. I shall be slowing down for the next couple of months (Christmas and 2 income tax bills to pay, plus I'm sure Accurascale will want me to spend some money too).

 

Handrails are a must and are on the list of things to be done next - I might see if I can buy some off-the-shelf ones rather than a few bits of battens .

 

The bottom stairs are resting on the dusty earth floor of the barn - that will be removed, and a mortar pad will be made - I have a similar finish to do at the top to consolidate the stone wall upon which it is resting - two jobs to be done together.

 

Insofar as lighting goes - natural light via a pair of small Velux, Veluxes? Velii? to go in once I start to do the ceiling (3-4 months away), and lighting will definitely be LED but I'm not sure whether battens over the circuit or panels here and there in the ceiling. Being indecisive, I shall probably have a mix. Whatever they are, I shall want them to change colour so I can emulate different climes and seasons.

 

No pictures today.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[JeffP]

Very jealous.

I'm once again banned from France even though my 90 days enforced absence is up.

But hey... don't even THINK of not paying your taxes foncieres, taxes d' habitation, taxe des poubelles, water bill etc etc etc 

[Philou]

@JeffP My lot this month were, poubelles, audiovisuelle and a new one taxe d'habitations vide (unoccupied flat within which I was working and Covid really messed up the timetabling for that and I missed renting out before the Jan 1st deadline and you take a hit for the whole year, unlike the UK where it's proportional).

 

Next month it's the half-yearly UK income tax on my DWP pension.

 

Sorry to hear that you have to do 90 day chunks - I'm lucky that I have dual nationality, so no problems from that perspective.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[JeffP]

We were going to do that.

Then transverse myelitis struck, and my poor wife is now wheelchair bound.

The French health service didn't want her on their books after that.

 

France is closed to tourists again. We were going to have Spring there this year, having missed the last four due to the horrid disease that paralysed my wife, then covid.

Looks like they'll take this one from us too. And I don't have that many left.

 

[Philou]

@JeffP Just had daughter No 1 on the 'phone saying that she's having to cancel her journey over here to spend Christmas with daughter No 2. No 2 is very upset as they haven't seen each other for over two years. Their Mum was due over too as she hasn't seen the grandson either for two years. He's 10 and over 5' tall now! Though he's half-French, he much prefers UK steam outline locos (good boy!).

 

I'm sorry to hear of your wife's illness and how that affected your future plans to stay here. On a positive note it seems that the Omicron is far more easily transmittable, but less infectious. Easter is some time away and all we can hope that it eases off before then.

 

A small update regarding the works in the barn: I have now screwed my 611th screw in the flooring (not ALL today). That's about 5 'runs', 9 to go. On, and there is light!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

There we have it chaps. The last screw was screwed down about 15mins ago - No 915. There will be some to do when the remaining planks appear - I expect after Christmas now. I shall be at a loss for a while project-wise - but I have plenty of domestic chores to keep me busy (and out of mischief).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

In case there is nothing to report over the next few days (and certainly I shan't be allowed too much computer time during Christmas) let me wish you all a Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year and here's hoping that 2022 will be better all round for everyone - cheers.

[Philou]

Hello chaps,

 

I DO have the filling of the wall to do, and I don't need the remaining planks to do that - so I can start that on Boxing Day (possibly not!).

 

I do need your help thinking cap-wise: I need to make a two leafed cellar type door at the stair-well level with the floor so that I can walk on it when it's closed (and not fall down the well) and I shall want to put a lock on it for security. Any ideas of how to construct it? It has to be level so as to minimise trip hazards.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[JeffP]

You'll need rebate timbers inside the opening, at the right depth for whatever material you're using. About 15-20 mm thick.

Screw and glue rebates in place.

 

Then construct a pair of doors, I'd suggest from planks, with transverse supports cut to clear the rebate, and once again screwed and glued.

It should be relatively simple to fit two pairs of hinges, recessed, to whichever sides make most sense.

 

On our old kitchen floor, before the block and beam floor went in, the cellar trap was as above.

A simple handle can be made from two strips of alloy etc with countersunk bolts through to the second strip.

The top strip is let into the floor to avoid tripping.

If the bolts are about 75 mm long, the handle can be pulled up with fingertips, then used to open one door.

The second doesn't need a handle.

 

I've used similar for my new cellar traps on the block and beam floor.

The "doors" are framed in stainless angle, the support being the same. They were fitted one inside the other and the inner ground so the sides are level. They were fitted to the floor with two 5x 50 mm stainless screws per side, at the correct height so that my tiles would be level with their tops when tiling took place.

The door is now tiled onto oak planks screwed to the angle and  waterproofed with resin.

A simple handle, from stainless rod and an M6 stainless bolt, screws into an M6 stainless threaded insert which is araldited level with the floor, and has a second M6 bolt and penny washer to stop it dragging free, so that when closed, all that is visible is a small hole. I have M6 csk screws to stop dirt entering the threads.

 

Sorry this is long-winded.