Dymented - the Serious stuff starts!

[Andy Hayter]

Unless you are within 500m of an historical monument it should be nothing more than a paper exercise.

Unfortunately historical monuments is not just chateaux and cathedrals but also old churches, maisons bourgeoisies and even lumps of rock deemed of druidic significance.  

[Philou]

Been in the doldrums a little lately as things have proceeded very very slowly and my motivation reduces accordingly. However, I have managed to insulate one quarter of the roof area and put up the metal lathing under it to secure it place. None of the purlins are straight nor square:

 

 

I found unfortunately that even cutting a sheet of 12.5mm plasterboard in two, I just didn't have the strength to hold it in place, position it correctly AND put the screws into the lathing. My SiL today has lent me his mechanical 'dead man's hand' which will support the plasterboard while it's being positioned and then screwed. It will also hold it at an angle which is good as there is a large area of slope to do. Downside is that the 'hand' won't reach more than 2.6m in height so I'm having to rethink my ceiling as I was going to follow the slope up to the ridge and then partially down the other side. The ridge is 3.6m high so out of my physical lifting capacities and the reach of the arm - rats!

 

Had the weather not been so hot, I would have had some tiles off by now to do the two Velii but the tiles were too hot to handle and I'm not allowed to be in the sun anyway. Additionally, we've had a week of rip-roaring thunderstorms accompanied by heavy rain, so not a good idea to have the roof open at the moment!

 

On a positive note, of the six eggs in the swallows' nest, four hatched. Here's the family photo taken whilst awaiting their breakfast. The photo was taken two days ago:

 

 

This morning - DISASTER! No-one in the nest and evidence of owl feathers on the ground below. The owls around here often raid nests and consume the chicks. Panic not! They were simply outside with the parents stretching their wings. I don't think they've got the hang of feeding on the fly as the parents are still bringing them the occasional snack whilst perched on the telephone wires. I'm not sure how long they'll be about as I believe if the parents do another clutch, the first lot get given the ol' heave-ho!

 

Bad news on my red start nest - six eggs, four chicks and then one of our cats heard of 'sing a song of sixpence' - they are no more! Mind you, stupid bird did make its nest four foot off the ground and not the first time either. I shall make them a nest-box higher off the ground as they over-winter in my eaves and I should like to encourage them to do a brood for next year.

 

Plaster boarding tomorrow and I'll have perhaps another photo to post up ...........

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: Does anyone know what has happened to Tomparryharry? I was following from time to time his shed building saga, but I see his account has been removed.

[SR71]

He still seems to be registered but hasn't visited since Feb;

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/profile/8270-tomparryharry/

 

Maybe got fed up with the server issues we were having back then?

[Philou]

Thanks @SR71, I think it was an error on my part as I searched 'tomparryharry' with a capital 'T'. The search may be case-sensitive.

[Philou]

LET THERE BE LIGHT! And the light shone into the innermost recesses of the railway room and Philou saw that it was good.

 

Yes, I girdled my loins, took courage in both hands and went on the roof this moaning before it became too hot. I took off tiles in both areas where I am to place the Velux - here are some photos. Cor! It makes a huuuuuge difference, though the area of light will not be as large as the Velux will be smaller than the area to be prepared:

 

 

 

Whilst progress is very slow, I have, nonetheless, plaster-boarded one quarter of the ceiling area already (not forgetting my lighting conduit). I wanted to put the two Velux in before proceeding further, as their positions will determine the placement of the metal laths - would've been silly to to the plaster-boarding and then do the Velux (been there, done that!). You can also see the dead man's hand that my SiL lent me - very very handy:

 

 

 

This afternoon and evening is studying YouTube tutorials for placing the Velux and perusing the instruction sheets provided as there are extra drip trays and membranes now provided. I also need to ensure that I support, then cut correctly, the one rafter at each location and reposition them at their new locations for the openings, remembering to measure twice and cut once. It's going to be a long and hot couple of days!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

I've just finished looking at some tutorials - some seem to think everyone has a perfect roof that requires no trimmers or cutting of rafters, to others that show warts an' all - like 'forgetting' to contact the planners for building regs. (not required here) or forget a vital bit or even do it all and then find it's upside down!! The latter lot is more like me! Trimming the old roofing timbers will be the hardest especially as certain gaps have to be respected when placing the window.

 

I'll let you know how I get on.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Well chums,

 

I've had a very good day despite a rather damp day promised by the weather forecast - didn't happen, just greyed over and blocked out the sun which was a bonus for me.

 

Today, I removed the plastic sheeting off one the openings and set out where I had to cut the undercloaking and then marked out the general area within which timbers had to be removed. It took a little while as I wanted the hole 'square' and without too much bother it happened. The hard part was cutting the battens, counter battens and the one rafter without damaging the undercloaking.

 

As Murphy was about, the first stroke of the saw did tear the undercloaking A@se! He was to come back later! Using a Japanese saw I did cut the battens without further damage and using a panel saw, I cut out the rafter to the length required - one cut I wasn't too happy about as I was tight against the tiles and it was not as square as I should have liked - but it came together fine.

 

Trimmers were cut to size and so too was the old section of rafter that I recycled. The hole created was rather good I thought. I got the chassis up through the now new window opening, and it dropped cleanly into place - I was surprised! All screwed up (no levelling as the roof is all over the place) and then started assembling the flashing provided. Part 1 just wouldn't fit into a groove as specified and Part 2 that was supposed to sit upon it just would fit correctly either. Much head scratching and light tapping of parts with a rubber mallet later, it dawned on me the that the chassis was back-to-front - Murphy again - A@se! Easy fix, just unscrew, turn 180° and refit. After that the flashing went together so easily. The last part needed a further row of tiles to be removed - and that was it. A neighbour happened to call in 'to have a look' which was just as well as he was able to pass the new window through the chassis and help me drop into place - job jobbed!!! :)))))) It did take me from 8.00am to 6.30pm though, and I am sore and knackered.

 

Tomorrow I shall tackle window No2 and then Saturday will be trimming all the tiles to size with my angle grinder - all straight cuts so provided the blade does its job that too should done and dusted.

 

Some pictures:

 

This morning showing both windows - I'd already started on No1 before I thought of taking pictures.

 

 

The old rafter ready for cutting, the undercloaking having been already cut and opened.

 

 

The rafter having been cut was simply slid to one side on some battens that I had previously screwed to the underside of the two adjoining rafters - no possibility of Murphy striking (again!) and the cut rafter falling to the floor.

 

 

The next picture makes it look as it all was done in a twinkling of an eye. The three above were taken before lunch at about 1 o'clock and then it took me the whole afternoon to set up the trimmers, recut the rafter, prepare the chassis, fix and refix it - ahem - and to do the flashing, but the window is in place.

 

 

It'll look much better when I restart the plasterboarding.

 

Cheers everyone,

 

Philip

Edited July 7, 2022 by Philou

[JeffP]

1. Are they genuine Velux?

2. Do they open?

3. Can they be electrically controlled?

4. Can you fit blinds?

 

We have them in a barn conversion bedroom. Ours are genuine, fitted by the roofer.

 

Once I finished the area, making rooms of a 90 sq m area, it became obvious that 3 and 4 above were important.

 

Luckily I was able to source kits, to electrically open and close them, at very good prices from a well-known auction site.

Not been so lucky with the two blinds fitted so far...Velux stuff is £££ brand new.

 

The one thing I didn't know with the electrical openers is the rain sensors. Go out, leaving roof windows open, and a shower sees them all close.

A real bonus in the Limousin.

[Philou]

@JeffP They are the real McCoy - I mean, Velux. They could be electrically controlled, but I decided my €€€€ would be better spent on plastering, electrics and most of all on getting the layout started especially as the kit was about €250 for each window. They do open as both were tested today. I can reach the handles easily with the Velux stick. I paid about €650 for the two windows including the flashing kits.

 

Blinds might well be an option once the layout is ready to be laid as in the summer there is a lot of direct sun coming into the room. For the size of windows, the blinds are about €65 each that I can add later.

 

Onto the job in hand - today was an excellent day. Bright and hot with a light breeze. The second window was put in place after lunch and the remainder of the afternoon was spent grinding the tiles to size around the new windows. Everything is now weather-proofed. I didn't take any photos from the roof as I had really achy legs and I just didn't have the energy to clamber back up the scaffolding and climb up onto the rooves. I'll take one tomorrow morning before it gets too hot - with the windows open!

 

Here are photos from inside, with the two Velux in place and tiles cut to size around. There is now less light than in the photos just above - but I had taken a larger number of tiles off to give working space. Tomorrow, I shall be marking out where the laths are to go around the windows and make a start on plasterboarding area No2.

 

 

 

The top photo looks as if I have floor lights - no such luxury - sunlight reflected off the floor!

 

Cheers everyone,

 

Philip

[Philou]

I forgot to add credit where credit is due, I did have Mrs Philou's BiL around today who was the gopher for the day that saved an awful lot of legwork and time. Having the one window done was a boon too as he was able to pass things up to me and vicky verker.

[The Stationmaster]

I would strongly recommend the Velux blinds - they do exactly what it say on the tin (well the packaging) and they really do cut dwn both light and heat coming into the room.

[teaky]

I'd recommend Blinds2Go.  Their blinds are less expensive, fit perfectly, take minutes to fit and perform well.  I have five blackout blinds which have been in use for a few years now.

 

Note: Slightly confusingly, their website has blinds to fit other manufacturer's windows listed under blinds for Velux.

[JeffP]

Keep an eye on eBay, and you might do like I did and find motorising kits at well under £100.

If only for the automatic closing.

Our blinds are motorised too.

 

Important tip for Velux roof windows: Do make sure the gap between tiles and frame is the correct size, and DO keep the gaps free of leaves and debris during leaf fall season.

Edited July 9, 2022 by JeffP

[Philou]

@JeffP We had a 'problem' last winter with leaves caught in the gap ('mind the gap' springs to mind) and a sudden cloudburst caused a mini-Niagara in one of the bedrooms. Luckily, I was able to open the Velux just enough to put my hand in the gutter and remove some of the leaves - the volume of water cleared the rest.

 

Thanks also to @The Stationmaster and @teaky for the info regarding the blinds. I can see their use for when it's sunny (as now). Fortunately, they can be added easily at a later date.

 

Today's little foray was back on the roof to take one last photo or two, and the scaffolding then removed in about 10mins. Feeling virtuous, I then mowed our lawn and the neighbours' (it's a holiday home and he's 86 and she's in her late 70s). With the hot weather announced and no rain due for fortnight, I hope it won't need doing again before a week or so.

 

Here we go, as mentioned yesterday, photos of the finished windows:

 

 

 

Cheers everyone and have a good weekend,

 

Philip

[Graham T]

Nicely done 🙂

[Philou]

@GrahamT Thanks for that. I was very lucky regarding the positions chosen haphazardly - no trimming off the heads or tails of the tiles and simple straight cuts along the edges - even the timberwork was near identical in both places which was quite novel for me as most of the rafter centres tend to be different over the roof-width.

 

I shan't be doing an update tonight as I decided to put off the marking out of the laths until tomorrow - stiff back!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Oh! And before I forget, thanks to all of you who have been following the saga and for your encouraging comments and 'thumbs' etc.

 

And another Oh! If you're not afraid of heights or at least happy being on a roof - do not be put off by the thought of DIYing your own Velux. The instructions (pictogrammes) are very straight-forward. However, don't forget that especially in the UK, you WILL need planning consent or at the very least building control involvement. Usually planners/building control officers are pretty helpful and some will only be too happy to advise and even tell you how to approach doing the mods to the timberwork (calcs and the like). At least over here it's rather more of a light touch approach.

[Philou]

Hello chums,

 

Another update. Despite there now being a pair of Velux, it still gets very hot in the afternoons and I expect there will no great change until the ceiling and insulation are in place. To that end I have been marking and screwing the laths in place, but the original timberwork is all squiffy as you will see in the photos. The Velux were set square relative to the tiles but it now shows just how out of true is the roof itself.

 

Photo 1 shows the one Velux framed by the metal lathing. Looks fairly square doesn't it?

 

 

Well now look at the second one. Framing again set square to the window but the lathing set parallel to the purlins. It is awful and it means I shall have a lot of measuring to do and lots of awkward cuts - nil desperandum:

 

 

 

Having finished the lathing this morning, I did some insulating until lunchtime - too hot this afternoon (30° in the shade). My plan of attack is to set up a straight line parallel to the 'vertical' frames of the windows extending to the purlin above and below and carefully set up a second line parallel to the first one half plasterboard wide. IF I can do a right angle to both lines I can then measure the length of each side of the board to be cut - which should be a near-trapezoidal shape. I shan't be able to get away without awkward cuts - I shall live with them. Tomorrow will be the last day for insulating/work for at least a week (no updates) as we're off to see Mrs Philou's grandchildren together with my grandson the next day. 8 hour drive to get there and it's going to be even hotter!

 

Cheers everyone and keep safe,

 

Philip

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Philou

[Philou]

Hi there chums and chumesses,

 

I am still about! Coming back from visiting Mrs Philou daughter and grandchildren, I felt completely wiped out. I felt I needed a second holiday to get over the first one! The weather was dreadfully hot - hit 43° in the shade - despite being on the coast. Even the sea-water was over 30° in sheltered parts and that was the North Atlantic.

 

Having shut the barn windows whilst we were away the temperature stabilised at hot due to there being little insulation in place and no other ventilation (note to oneself to get some in!). Anyway, I griddled my loins and restarted this week doing mornings only (still too hot in the afternoons). The second area of ceiling is now completely insulated and I have done a good third of the plasterboarding in that area. Tomorrow should see all the big panels in place and Sunday should be putting in place all the in-fills and the surrounds to the Velux. I'll post a picture up only then.

 

As I'm writing this, it's decided to rain - great big drops - must dash to shut the Velux!!!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[37Oban]

2 hours ago, Philou said:

Anyway, I griddled my loins and restarted this week doing mornings only (still too hot in the afternoons). The second area of ceiling is now completely insulated and I have done a good third of the plasterboarding in that area. Tomorrow should see all the big panels in place and Sunday should be putting in place all the in-fills and the surrounds to the Velux. I'll post a picture up only then.

 

 

Hi Philou,

 

is it a French thing, griddling your loins?   I'm sure it must be painful! 😂

 

Roja

[Graham T]

It sounds as if the air temperature would have been enough, without needing to get a griddle involved 🥸

[Philou]

With temperatures still in the low 30s in these here parts and much hotter under the tiles, I expect they're parboiled rather than griddled!!!

 

I've just come back indoors with a cold beer in hand (ok ok I know good British beer is served lukewarm. My tipple was Brains SA). All the big panels are in place and I have started boarding around the Velux. One is part done and so the other should be tomorrow am. If time permits (I've been invited to a lunchtime birthday bash) I may complete all the little bits of the window surround of one of them too - depends if I start before 8am (or not - it is Sunday after all!!).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: I'm alone for a few days, so beer and crisps is on the menu at least once a day! Hic!

Edited August 6, 2022 by Philou

[Philou]

Curses!! Just typed a huge missive and in closing another programme it all went *poof* and disappeared!!

 

Hello everyone,

 

Well I did it! I went into the barn at 7:15am and I managed to do all the cuts and infills around both Velux. I was out again by 10:15 that gave me oodles of time to get ready for the birthday bash.

 

Tomorrow's job is to take some detailed measurements of the second half of the proposed ceiling (again). I had intended to put the ceiling up following the rafters up to the apex and back down again. I'm having second thoughts as the apex is 3.6m above the new floor and I shall need scaffolding AND the 'dead man's hand' with me to lift the panels in place, plus steps or a hop-up. Seeing as there is an open side to my new floor, I shan't trust myself to not want to over-reach and suddenly find myself on the deck 2.5m below the new floor. The open side will be closed off with a new plasterboard wall but that won't happen until the ceiling is in place.

 

I am now investigating the possibility of launching some 6" x 1" (150 x 28mm in new money) between the existing purlins at 1.2m spacings from which I can then hang the new metal laths. If it works out that the new ceiling is between 2.4 and 2.6m high, good, better if I can get it to be 2.5m as its a standard off-the shelf length for plasterboarding and studwork - hence detailed measurements tomorrow and then another 3D drawing.

 

If it all works out, it will mean some extra carpentry but it will mean less over-reach AND time saving in using whole rolls of insulation rather than  cuts to fit between the rafters as I have done so far.

 

Back to today's jobbie:

 

 

 

I can now go to bed, knowing that at least half the ceiling is now boarded and insulated!

 

Cheers everyone, stay safe,

 

Philip

 

Edit: Surplus photo and naff due to too high a contrast.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Philou

[Philou]

Hello chums,

 

Another Sunday has arrived and time to do a progress report.

 

I did do my 3D plan (copy below) and being satisfied that it was achievable at a finished ceiling height of 2400mm, on paper anyway, I got some 6" x 1" and 1 3/4" square timber from my local merchant on Tuesday and set to.

 

Firstly, I had to set out a line which was not quite straight-forwards due to not having any real points of reference that I would consider 'square'. One consolation was that the floor is level (hoorah!). In the end I decided that a point 'about' 100mm along one of the the purlins would do as a start-point. I then marked out other points at 1200mm intervals. Why 1200mm? Because rolls of insulation come in that width and Mr local merchant assured me that the metal lathing will support plasterboard without becoming unintended flooring if supported at 1200mm intervals. These marks continued as far as the 'big beam'.

 

I then restarted marking from the other wall along the same purlin and back to the 'big beam'. Being happy with that, I made myself a height gauge allowing for: height of the metal studding, the top and bottom rails, the metal lathing and of course, the plasterboard - in all about 2436mm.

 

Using the same principle, I then marked out the ridge board in a very similar manner. Using my gauge I then started placing struts vertically from the ridge board down to the gauge at a clearance fit. Same for the struts on the one purlin. These were a little more complicated as the purling was definitely not square, not level, not straight and has a twist in it and unlike UK purlins, laid 'square' to the rafters rather than in vertical plane! The struts were all individually cut to length horizontally along their bottom end. As with the struts along the ridge board these were laid with the aid of the gauge again at a clearance fit.

 

All this was rinse and repeated for the opposite purlin after having set out a line between a purlin strut and a ridge one giving me my starter for ten. Took me three mornings just for 21 struts! On Friday I went shopping but didn't have buttered scones for tea, so nothing happened - a lost day.

 

Fast forward to today, I have managed to put up and trim two (2!) of my 6" x 1"s. Bit of a faff as being alone, I had to find a way of raising one end of the plank, leaving it in mid-air at the near-height required, clambering up my ladder and using my gauge at an interference fit under the plank, holding it in place with one screw temporarily at one purlin strut and then shinning up the steps at the end and with the aid of the gauge, interference fit to the other purlin strut and screwing lightly (takes a breath). I finally made a loop with some wire that allowed me to leave it in mid-air. It worked. I did the trial run and it was horizontal!

 

I made the error of taking the plank down to trim it to its final length. As it was now shorter, it would no longer hold itself in the loop and the cat sleeping below nearly got biffed when it slid out. I finally got it back in place and it looked OK and was still level. I decided from here on I would to the final trim in-situ, which is where I left the second one to be trimmed tomorrow.

 

Would you like to see some pictures? Aw go on go on go on, you know you want to  .......................

 

The general arrangement drawing - all theory:

 

 

General idea of the struts:

 

 

And now the reality! Struts being placed:

 

 

 

Two planks in place:

 

 

(and my height gauge) in view:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Thank you @5BarVT for the round of applause and thanks for the encouragement chums. I feel that I'm on a roll at the moment and I want to get back in the barn and get on with it! Hopefully I can get a whole day in tomorrow as the weather is definitely cooler at only 22° in the shade. We might even get some electrical fireworks in the afternoon plus some much needed rain in a day or so.

 

I forgot to add that I also managed to set out some of the rails for the stud work as I needed to set out the line to determine the length of the planks above. Despite nothing being square, it does seem to be coming together quite quickly all of a sudden, though I doubt if I'll hit my September target (though I didn't say which year (did I?)).

[Philou]

Hi chums,

 

 I got all the planks up today but despite having prepped the last but one before lunch, ready to be hoisted in place, it took nearly four hours (!) to get the last two in place. I dunno, seemed as if I was working in treacle. Anyway, all trimmed, in place and ready for the laths tomorrow. I will need to set one line up parallel to the proposed new end wall, hence the rails being laid yesterday, but it'll probably take me the morning as I tend to fuss that it's not square, or vertical, or ,or , or ...........

 

I'll keep you posted as soon as I have something to show.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip