Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Ron Ron Ron]

A lot of what is discussed above is characteristic/symptomatic of “still fairly immature” technology ........my guess is that most of the issues will “work their way out of the system” over a period of maybe five or ten years.....

That process of working issues out of the system is underway. 

The cars themselves are becoming very mature. The larger hurdles are price and charging infrastructure.

 

 

Something I think EVs do need to do is ‘throw off the shackles of the IC engine’, by which I mean they need to be designed ground-up, not as adaptations of IC heritage vehicles....

 

....or to fit the visual preconceptions of what a car should look like.

Most of the new generation of EV's have been designed from the ground up and are not adaptations.

In terms of looks, the market preference would prefer a bias towards more conventional styling.

The concept cars are something else.

 

 

I’m really looking forward to the VW electric microbus, which genuinely does look to be conceptually novel.

See the video below.......

 

 

As someone who finds the technology fascinating, but is a natural late adopter of gizmos, so wants to wait for the next generation of EVs, when many of the bugs have been ironed out,

 

....it’s not wanting to buy something that ‘sort of still half prototype’.

Development of EV's has gone far beyond that stage, as witnessed by the major car companies now committed to producing wide ranges of electrically powered vehicles. Not just low production technology demonstrators.

The next generation now beginning to come to market are very well developed.

 

The premium brands in particular are not going to risk flooding the market with products which would damage their brand image and possibly put them at a severe disadvantage as the market moves further in this direction, over the next 10 years or more.

 

 

 

 

VW ID range Concept vehicles.

Featuring the micro bus concept........

 

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[PatB]

I believe the manual/auto ratio in Oz is of the order of 15/85 (if I remember a recent radio programme correctly) and moving rapidly auto wards. I like manuals but, TBH, I've more or less given up trying to enjoy driving cars and will make do with something that simply isn't actively unpleasant.

[Ozexpatriate]

... the manual/auto ratio in Oz is of the order of 15/85 ... and moving rapidly auto wards. 

Thanks, that's pretty much what I expected. I was pretty sure that Australia was tracking the US downward trend for manual transmissions.

 

The country by country differences are curious.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Can't say I've ever seen much point in automatics, seeing as gear changing is pretty much subconcious. Not that the lack of needing gears puts me off an EV, but neither is it a selling point. The only time I've driven one I did find slow speed control awkward without a clutch (never having ever driven anything else) but that's simply a case of getting used to it. I didn't like the foot handbrake though. The power was impressive for a small car (Renault Zoe).

 

Changing gear is the only exercise some people get.

 

Mike.

[jjb1970]

The reason I was never worried about electrification of cars as a car enthusiast was that it was always going to be the case that as the market evolved so would the cars, and that the car industry would make cars to appeal to enthusiastic drivers and those who love cars.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

On the mpg, often that is because with an auto they can fiddle the change points easily to improve the test figures. In a similar way to the VW emissions scandal, but been done for far longer.

 

,or set off in second gear a la Porsche.

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Depends what they actually do. As a pedestrian, a near silent electric car (or indeed a hybrid running on electric) can very easily sneak up on you - this has happened to me several times. Some kind of sounds on the outside is very much a worthwhile safety feature.

It should still be possible to have a quiet, vibration free interior.

 

Presumably, by the same logic, a lot of people get run over by Rolls Royces and Bentleys?

 

Mike.

[jjb1970]

Changing gear is the only exercise some people get.

 

Mike.

 

If people want exercise then walk or buy a bicycle.

[Nearholmer]

Ron

 

I probably didn’t express myself very well in my “still half prototype” point.

 

The mechanicals and drive train are clearly mature, but I genuinely do regard the batteries as immature, or at least I hope they are, because if this is as good as they can ever get, they ain’t good enough for me to want to buy one.

 

And boy, are EVs expensive currently ....... I’m an electric traction engineer, so I know that the drive train ought to be cheaper than IC and transmission, so the problem is the battery again.

 

Fuel cells anyone?

 

Kevin

[Guest]

The Opel Ampera-e.

An updated European version of the Chevrolet Bolt.

Soon to appear wearing a Vauxhall badge.

 

 

Hope it gets over here. It would do much better in Europe than it's been doing in the US.

[Guest]

Doug DeMuro did an interesting piece on the Bolt

 

[Fenman]

Depends what they actually do. As a pedestrian, a near silent electric car (or indeed a hybrid running on electric) can very easily sneak up on you - this has happened to me several times. Some kind of sounds on the outside is very much a worthwhile safety feature.

It should still be possible to have a quiet, vibration free interior.

I live in the middle of nowhere and frequently walk my dogs on narrow country lanes with no pavements or even verges (off-road footpaths are rarely continuous here). The biggest hazard for us is cyclists bombing down hills around blind bends. Many cyclists are sensible. Some are lunatic (the same as car drivers and walkers, I expect).

 

By your logic, presumably all cycles should be fitted with compulsory noise generators as a safety feature?

 

For me, cities are becoming unbearably noisy. I lived in central London for 20 years. As cars got better sound insulation, emergency vehicle sirens seemed to get louder and louder, to penetrate into those cars. For those of us not in cars - pedestrians, or just the poor sods living on red routes - noise pollution got worse. The quality of life deteriorated.

 

Unintended consequences.

 

Paul

Edited May 23, 2018 by Fenman

[Fat Controller]

Presumably, by the same logic, a lot of people get run over by Rolls Royces and Bentleys?

 

Mike.

I almost got run over by HMQ's one by Tower Bridge one day...

[runs as required]

I will have to wait until a van based one comes along, or get a hybrid, so we can fit my wife's wheelchair in plus the four-legged fella, plus the shopping or luggage, plus the grandson etc etc.

 

And it has be able to do 700Km in one day, several times a year.

I have seen a French advert for battery trailers (interchangeable at wayside garages) specifically targetted at longer EV journies.

When they were first talked of, 20 odd years ago, I recall the fuel companies Shell etc. saying batteries could be standardised under-tray quickly interchangeable components. Is the power to weight ratio of such interchangability simplly inpracticable ?

2

Surely the future is to be hiring rather than owning appropriate EVs. We seem to be the only household around us now owning (a battered diesel Mondeo bought out of petty cash) rather than hiring a 1 or 2 year old vehicle.

 

This is my ideal split screen camper - overnight sleeper to Torridon ?

dh

Edited May 23, 2018 by runs as required

[number6]

Got one. Cheap as chips to run. Absolute pleasure to drive. Anxiety about chargers evaporates pretty much instantly - do you need a petrol pump outside your house? 

 

And to be honest the amount to flak us EV drivers get about our choice of car beggars belief when you look at the tons shiny cars filling up the roads that must cost double to buy and four times as much to run - not to mention the amount of pollution, smell and noise they make.

 

If you haven't driven one then go have a try.

[Reorte]

Electronic parking brakes are pretty normal on cars now. Initially I thought the idea was another answer looking for a question but I like the idea now.

What changed your mind, because they still look like a solution looking for a problem to me now. I tend to favour the lowest tech option that does a reasonable job and dislike changes to high tech merely for the sake of it, and straightforward handbrakes have done the job perfectly well for a long time.

[spikey]

Hang on a sec, I'm trying to keep up here. So if I've got this right, a hybrid car uses regenerative braking. Is that reckoned to keep the battery charged up, or does it also need topping up from the mains?

 

And what happens when you put your foot on the brake pedal? What initiates the regenerative braking, and how do the conventional brakes fit into the scheme of things?

Edited May 23, 2018 by spikey

[Reorte]

Hang on a sec, I'm trying to keep up here. So if I've got this right, a hybrid car uses regenerative braking. Is that reckoned to keep the battery charged up, or does it also need topping up from the mains?

 

And what happens when you put your foot on the brake pedal? What initiates the regenerative braking, and how do the conventional brakes fit into the scheme of things?

You'll get something back from regenerative braking but it'll still need charging too (the laws of thermodynamics see to that, if it didn't need charging too you'd have invented a perpetual motion machine).

 

I think that the car will work out itself when / if it needs to apply the friction brakes. It'll certainly need to to for coming to a halt, but possibly not in non-emergency normal driving. At a guess the driver asks for a certain amount of braking by pressing the pedal and the car does as much of that as it can regeneratively, topping that up with the friction brakes if necessary to achieve the desired level of braking.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I almost got run over by HMQ's one by Tower Bridge one day...

 

You should have reported the registration number to the police,,,,,oh wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Mike.

[Guest]

I think that the car will work out itself when / if it needs to apply the friction brakes. It'll certainly need to to for coming to a halt, but possibly not in non-emergency normal driving. At a guess the driver asks for a certain amount of braking by pressing the pedal and the car does as much of that as it can regeneratively, topping that up with the friction brakes if necessary to achieve the desired level of braking.

 

Yep. Pretty much. The brakes work like brakes and will automagically always extract the most regen thet they can.

The car will also generally have some means of regulating how much regen you get from just releasing the throttle. Think engine braking. The new Leaf takes this further by letting you slow right down to a stop just using the throttle which is nice for in town.

[jjb1970]

What changed your mind, because they still look like a solution looking for a problem to me now. I tend to favour the lowest tech option that does a reasonable job and dislike changes to high tech merely for the sake of it, and straightforward handbrakes have done the job perfectly well for a long time.

Once you get used to just lifting a switch, which frees up central console space then why not use an electric parking brake? In my case it has a particular benefit, my wife was always whinging I pulled too hard on the hand brake and it was too tight for her to release, I thought she left it too loose, that whole debate has gone away as the electrics look after it. I wouldn't buy a car to get an electric parking brake and could live without it but being used to it now I prefer it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Presumably, by the same logic, a lot of people get run over by Rolls Royces and Bentleys?

 It was an early Lexus that nearly got me, couldn't hear it at all while cycling, and moved out for an obstacle that blew into the road without a check behind. I feel the argument for making 'silent drive' cars emit noise is very weak. Going to ban in-ear headphones for all pdedestrians and cyclists, and in car entertainment for motorists? It's eyesight that is primary, hearing is a very long way second as a hazard detection system. That's why we insist on lights on cars at night...

 

For the blind? I would propose a tech. solution that picks up a compulsory radio signal and supplies a vector mapping of the moving hazards. A blind friend is deeply aggrieved at pavement buggies for the physically disabled: much more of a hazard for him, he has been run into three times by elderly who expect pedestrians to take evasive action.

[number6]

The display in mine shows maximum regenerative breaking with the brake pedal pressed but to be honest I rarely use it as the regen in normal driving brings me to a halt where I want. I found a Leaf it felt more 'slippery' and it will power off slightly [like old diesels used to] without touching the accelerator. In the i3 the balance is the other way and feels more sticky so one powers along and feels the deceleration/regen much more. Of course you don't gain as much as you use but to get a mile or two back on a medium sized hill or long downhill on a motorway or to arrive with more range than you left with [which is of course dependent on style of driving more than anything] is still a little thrill. I never saw the fuel gauge on the old car go up while I drove along. 

 

Of course this is all just algorithms and display showing range but to have any kind of encouragement to change attitudes to the use of precious fuel is good I think. 

 

Driving electric makes you calculate and 'game' the use of fuel - I've been known to thrash along at 70, blast off the lights or off roundabouts but I trickle along gently most of the time.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, mine puts its own brake on as you select ‘park’ and take the key out.

 

I now forget to put the handbrake on if driving a car without this feature, which has resulted in trouble!

[spikey]

...while cycling, and moved out for an obstacle that blew into the road without a check behind ...

As one who cycles everywhere everyday (it's either that, legs or the bus nowadays), I can recommend https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B074TGPR51/ref=s9_acsd_zgift_hd_bw_bV16Jj_c_x_w?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-5&pf_rd_r=4XBYXZ3BW2MSE7Y024Y6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=6674f43b-b148-5c69-a6dd-6ad4c09fff10&pf_rd_i=458329031 or https://www.acycles.co.uk/mirrycle-flat-bar-bike-mirror-1579.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwopTYBRAzEiwAnU4kbwSBPRrLC_fn4BaYV84rn-dFYN8n9S3hnAUHolGxERZL00ftRp2BExoCNZkQAvD_BwE

 

The former is somewhat neater than the latter, but we find that the reflective surface scratches easily. Be that as it may, neither of us feel safe on a bike nowadays without a mirror.

Edited May 23, 2018 by spikey