Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Ian J.]

I have one particular journey every year that I would need to cover. 300 miles out, 300 miles back, 1 hour on site, all same day. No time to recharge for lengthy periods of time (i.e., overnight). So the 500+ with a recharge to 80% in half an hour or less allows that journey.

 

Edit: the time on site has no facility for recharging, that would have to be done at a service station on the motorway, preferably not more than one stop out, one stop back.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Ian J.

[PenrithBeacon]

13 hours ago, Ian J. said:

I still feel that until we have 500+ mile range (with 'normal' driving and toys usage) and a recharge from near flat to a true 80% level within half an hour, then batteries just haven't made it to reasonable single car use for both shorter and longer journeys. I certainly feel that I can't afford to have two vehicles as a single person.

Not sure about 500 miles, my Jazz will do 300 miles comfortably (although Honda says 400+, don't believe it) and that's fine for me. It would have to be a genuine 300+ though, 10 miles to or from a motorway and then the rest cruising at 70mph and no fiddling with test results. 

One thing, and I know that this might seem a bit silly,  but most petrol stations don't have a cafe attached where you can while away 40 minutes or so before being on your way again. Simply installing chargers at wayside petrol stations isn't going to cut it for me.

[black and decker boy]

23 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Thank you for that. I've taken a look at the website and gather that this device requires an additional SIMCARD which implies additional running costs, can you confirm please?

https://www.rolecserv.com/ev-charging

The smart meters link to your home broadband so no running costs.

Edited April 25, 2021 by black and decker boy

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Just to add what has already been said above....

 

500 miles is London to Fort William. Who can manage that without a stop for at least a "comfort break"?

 

The average mileage use of all motor cars in the UK  (inc. high mileage business use) is just under 7000 mile per annum.

That works out at an average of 140 miles per week, based on 50 weeks of use.

In other words an average of 20 miles per day over 7 days, or 28 miles per day based on 5 days use (again based on 50 weeks).

 

Latest National Travel Survey figures pre-Covid (2019).

Average annual business mileage is just 555 miles p.a.

Average business journey takes 42 mins.

 

So even with a fair number of high mileage business users, doing 20, 30 or 40,0000 miles a year, these are very much in the minority.

The vast majority of car users will only require a 200 mile range to cover a weeks car use.

300 miles should be a good enough "comfort blanket" to cover all but the very high milers, something the next generation of battery cars should easily achieve.

 

 

.

Indeed.

 

I work in construction so my annual mileage is typically 20k to 30k per year. None of my family / friends get close to that. My EV is serving my needs perfectly.

 

Driving cross country (A roads etc) rather than motorway achieves better range as lower average speed and more braking

 

As for a 600mile round trip to do a 1 hour job on site. I think driving for 6 hours each way cannot be healthy or safe without at least 1/2 hour beak each way. As such, an EV with a WTLP range of 300miles+ will serve your needs today. I could comfortably do that in mine. When I was commuting such distances though I opted for the train. Far less fatigue, similar end to end journey time and way better for the environment.

 

planning your journey is a 5 minute job via apps such as Zap-Map which have journey planning functions and list most public charging points in the U.K. you can tailor the app to suit your real world range.

 

Driving an EV is identical to an ICE, the harder you accelerate, the more energy you use. Unlike an ICE, anticipating junctions etc and braking in good time maximises energy recovery. Drive sensibly and you go further.

 

 

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, 30801 said:

Where we are now is you have 200 miles under favourable conditions in a car that is comparable in price to an ICE when you take into account savings in running costs.

 

Personally I never want to go back to a filling station model.
Let the car charge while you are doing something nicer.

 

Yeah, the thing that really puts me off isn't electric cars, it's (as I was going on about earlier) the amount of electronics in any new car. Some love them, I'm at the opposite end of the scale. I'd go for a conversion of my current car if it was practical.

[Joseph_Pestell]

54 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Yeah, the thing that really puts me off isn't electric cars, it's (as I was going on about earlier) the amount of electronics in any new car. Some love them, I'm at the opposite end of the scale. I'd go for a conversion of my current car if it was practical.

 

I'm in your camp on this. Very few of the gadgets that I find useful.

 

Just bought my first car with electric (memory) driver's seat adjustment. Until the driver gets in and turns the ignition key, the back seat passenger can't get in because there is no leg room behind the driver's seat. So clever, NOT.

 

There are not too many cars that can not be converted. A friend has a Fiat 126 that is more practical than the original as it has a boot for luggage.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

One thing, and I know that this might seem a bit silly,  but most petrol stations don't have a cafe attached where you can while away 40 minutes or so before being on your way again. Simply installing chargers at wayside petrol stations isn't going to cut it for me.

 

No that's perfectly reasonable. The best thing about chargers is you can put them in places other than petrol stations. Like in a car park near some shops. Hotel ones are good for a drink/meal too.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

 

Just bought my first car with electric (memory) driver's seat adjustment. Until the driver gets in and turns the ignition key, the back seat passenger can't get in because there is no leg room behind the driver's seat. So clever, NOT.

That’s awkward, although I suppose depends how often you change drivers and carry rear seat passengers as to how much inconvenience it really is, our last ICE adjusted the seats (memory of course) as you opened the doors at it read the key fob the driver was using, best to make sure you didn’t pick up the wife’s keys 

[DaveF]

At present I drive a hybrid, one day I would like to have an electric car.

 

There is a big "BUT".  It took me 5 minutes to fill up with petrol and pay for it yesterday.  The filling station has 4 pumps and is always busy, so a throughput of up to about  40 cars an hour (or more).

 

If each electric car needs (say) 30 minutes to charge then the filling station (or somewhere else nearby) would need 20 charging points.   Locally you could have fewer, as many will charge up at home.  But how many would you need at filing stations/service areas on trunk roads?  If the EV range is less than petrol/diesel more people will stop than now, so car parks would be even more full, each would need a charging point.   You would actually need more spaces than now.

 

I live in an area which, outside my town, has a very low population density.  What will the economics be for installing charging points in a car park at the head of a valley which has very few visitors in winter - but may be up to 30 miles from a garage?  I can drive all day in my area and never pass a petrol pump!

 

Has anyone calculated how many chargers will be needed overall?

 

David

 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by DaveF

[The Fatadder]

I’m planning a family trip to Chessington later in the year, its about 120miles of motorway driving each way, so I am going to need pretty much a full charge when I get there.   The hotel at the park says it has 4 destination chargers, between all of those visitors.  Doesn’t exactly fill you with confidence that you will get access to a charger.  Without which you would finish a long day at the theme park and then have to find a charger to get home.   Looks like hotels and attractions are going to need to install a lot more chargers...

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

I’m planning a family trip to Chessington later in the year, its about 120miles of motorway driving each way, so I am going to need pretty much a full charge when I get there.   The hotel at the park says it has 4 destination chargers, between all of those visitors.  Doesn’t exactly fill you with confidence that you will get access to a charger.  Without which you would finish a long day at the theme park and then have to find a charger to get home.   Looks like hotels and attractions are going to need to install a lot more chargers...

 

I agree that more chargers are needed. But if you check-in to hotel when you get there, rather than wait until after your visit to the "World of Adventures" (Zoo when I lived nearby), you should be fine.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

I’m planning a family trip to Chessington later in the year, its about 120miles of motorway driving each way, so I am going to need pretty much a full charge when I get there.   The hotel at the park says it has 4 destination chargers,

 

Chessington might need to up their game a bit. The Harry potter studio tour has 40 in their car park.

[PenrithBeacon]

31 minutes ago, DaveF said:

...

Has anyone calculated how many chargers will be needed overall?

 

David

 

 

I doubt if it's really feasible to calculate how many chargers will needed,  I think it will be more of a matter  of lots and always being behind the curve.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if every other parking spot on every motorway or A road service station will need to have one eventually. Certainly every third one.

[Ian J.]

3 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Indeed.

 

I work in construction so my annual mileage is typically 20k to 30k per year. None of my family / friends get close to that. My EV is serving my needs perfectly.

 

Driving cross country (A roads etc) rather than motorway achieves better range as lower average speed and more braking

 

As for a 600mile round trip to do a 1 hour job on site. I think driving for 6 hours each way cannot be healthy or safe without at least 1/2 hour beak each way. As such, an EV with a WTLP range of 300miles+ will serve your needs today. I could comfortably do that in mine. When I was commuting such distances though I opted for the train. Far less fatigue, similar end to end journey time and way better for the environment.

 

planning your journey is a 5 minute job via apps such as Zap-Map which have journey planning functions and list most public charging points in the U.K. you can tailor the app to suit your real world range.

 

Driving an EV is identical to an ICE, the harder you accelerate, the more energy you use. Unlike an ICE, anticipating junctions etc and braking in good time maximises energy recovery. Drive sensibly and you go further.

 

 

 

I'd not be wanting to spend a couple of hours, potentially more, at services waiting to be able to continue my journey. I'd need to get it finished as quickly as possible so I don't think the half hour break, one each way for a total of one hour, would be enough with a 300 mile realistic maximum range. I'd be having range anxiety combined with adding two or more hours to the journey, so current EVs still not good enough for my bar.

[Reorte]

13 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

 

I'd not be wanting to spend a couple of hours, potentially more, at services waiting to be able to continue my journey. I'd need to get it finished as quickly as possible so I don't think the half hour break, one each way for a total of one hour, would be enough with a 300 mile realistic maximum range. I'd be having range anxiety combined with adding two or more hours to the journey, so current EVs still not good enough for my bar.

Maybe it's time to step back a bit - getting around the country is very fast and easy on the whole, even with crowded motorways. Would it really be such a bad thing if we slowed down a bit?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Porsche plans battery cell factory in southern Germany (msn.com)

[Nick C]

5 hours ago, Ian J. said:

I have one particular journey every year that I would need to cover. 300 miles out, 300 miles back, 1 hour on site, all same day. No time to recharge for lengthy periods of time (i.e., overnight). So the 500+ with a recharge to 80% in half an hour or less allows that journey.

 

Edit: the time on site has no facility for recharging, that would have to be done at a service station on the motorway, preferably not more than one stop out, one stop back.

300 would be plenty though - start with a full charge, drive 200, charge during a break, 100 + 100, charge again, 200 to home. Unless you're doing 70 all the way, you can't legally do 300 in one go anyway (the law requires a break every 4.5 hours max for commercial drivers, and at 60 average that's just 270 miles)

[Chrisr40]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

Maybe it's time to step back a bit - getting around the country is very fast and easy on the whole, even with crowded motorways. Would it really be such a bad thing if we slowed down a bit?

It's a nice thought and I wish we could but try telling that to my boss for whom time is money or someone who wants an ambulance, blood courier bike etc...

[johnofwessex]

2 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

I’m planning a family trip to Chessington later in the year, its about 120miles of motorway driving each way, so I am going to need pretty much a full charge when I get there.   The hotel at the park says it has 4 destination chargers, between all of those visitors.  Doesn’t exactly fill you with confidence that you will get access to a charger.  Without which you would finish a long day at the theme park and then have to find a charger to get home.   Looks like hotels and attractions are going to need to install a lot more chargers...

 

Of course for most of these 'Attractions' you would not need more than a 7kw charger as most visitors spend quite long there.

[The Fatadder]

3 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Of course for most of these 'Attractions' you would not need more than a 7kw charger as most visitors spend quite long there.

Exactly, for a day trip if I arrived at opening and plugged the car in, I would have enough charge on a 7kw to drive home.   (It is exactly what I plan to do for Warley this year given the NEC have plenty of 7kw chargers)

 

 

[Ian Morgan]

7 hours ago, DaveF said:

There is a big "BUT".  It took me 5 minutes to fill up with petrol and pay for it yesterday.  The filling station has 4 pumps and is always busy, so a throughput of up to about  40 cars an hour (or more).

 

If each electric car needs (say) 30 minutes to charge then the filling station (or somewhere else nearby) would need 20 charging points.   Locally you could have fewer, as many will charge up at home.  But how many would you need at filing stations/service areas on trunk roads?  If the EV range is less than petrol/diesel more people will stop than now, so car parks would be even more full, each would need a charging point.   You would actually need more spaces than now.

 

 

There is a flaw in your logic though. Drivers of IC cars have to visit petrol stations every time they reach their maximum range. Drivers of EV cars only use public chargers if they are travelling longer distances than normal. Pre-Covid, I used public chargers less than once per month, usually when taking my layout to an exhibition far from home. During Covid times, the last time I used a public charger was last October. My Pre-Covid daily commute was well within my EV range, and I charged up once per day, either at work or at home. Before I had an EV, I had to fill up with diesel at a petrol station at least once per week to complete my daily commuting. (Cost of charging at home 5 times, £20, cost of a tank full of diesel £60)

 

So, the demand for chargers on trunk roads will be much lower than the demand for petrol stations, and will decrease as EV range increases.

 

[boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, Chrisr40 said:

It's a nice thought and I wish we could but try telling that to my boss for whom time is money or someone who wants an ambulance, blood courier bike etc...

If your boss is really like that, now is not the time for you to go EV, wait a year or two.....

[Reorte]

14 hours ago, Chrisr40 said:

It's a nice thought and I wish we could but try telling that to my boss for whom time is money or someone who wants an ambulance, blood courier bike etc...

Bosses like that are part of the vicious circle that drags us all down... And they're caught up in it themselves, you can either be part of the race to the bottom or go out of business - it's beyond me how we solve that one.

 

Emergency services generally aren't doing very long trips like that. Occasionally it's needed and I sincerely hope that if there are benefits to the emergency services for petrol and diesel powered vehicles they'll still be able to get them no matter what the rules are in general.

[rocor]

I see that Australia is leading the way with its policies for the adoption of EVs.

 

 

[admiles]

17 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

 

There is a flaw in your logic though. Drivers of IC cars have to visit petrol stations every time they reach their maximum range. Drivers of EV cars only use public chargers if they are travelling longer distances than normal. Pre-Covid, I used public chargers less than once per month, usually when taking my layout to an exhibition far from home. During Covid times, the last time I used a public charger was last October. My Pre-Covid daily commute was well within my EV range, and I charged up once per day, either at work or at home. Before I had an EV, I had to fill up with diesel at a petrol station at least once per week to complete my daily commuting. (Cost of charging at home 5 times, £20, cost of a tank full of diesel £60)

 

So, the demand for chargers on trunk roads will be much lower than the demand for petrol stations, and will decrease as EV range increases.

 

 

Unless all charging has to be done at public chargers. Many people, including myself, can't charge at home or work.  That's why speed of charging is as vital as range.