Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[PatB]

22 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

While I can understand the point about efficiency, I think the point here is about carbon footprint and the environmental effect of extracting Lithium. The carbon footprint of EV is 18% less than ICE but the expansion of surface transportation will soon remove that advantage. There is a need for something better.

Indeed, I have long suspected that there may be insufficient harvestable energy, and other necessary resources, to sustainably provide widespread powered personal transport at anything above the level of an ebike. 

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

 The carbon footprint of EV is 18% less than ICE but the expansion of surface transportation will soon remove that advantage.

Some are far better than that…..which was one of the attractions to us of the i3.

 

”Along with the wind turbines, such initiatives are a key factor in how BMW can claim that the i3 is not only a car with zero tailpipe emissions, but that it has one of the lowest ‘ whole life carbon footprints ‘ of any car on sale. Compared to the manufacture of a BMW 118d, the BMW i3 has just 66% of its lifetime carbon emissions (based on recharging with an average European electricity mix). If the i3 is recharged with electricity generated from renewables, then it has just 50% of the embodied carbon of a 118d.”

[Guest]

These Defender conversions look fun if you have deep pockets.

 

 

[rocor]

1 hour ago, Ian J. said:

As I understand it, hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, so in many ways there is just loads of the stuff lying around waiting to be 'hoovered up'. However, there is just the one slight problem - getting to where it is (other star systems, the stars themselves, other galaxies...  )

 

The problem with hydrogen is that it lacks nobility,  It is promiscuous. It will be found to have intimately attached itself to many other elements. Trying to get it to re-establish its previous purity, may require a great deal of effort and energy.  

[The Fatadder]

130mile drive in the i3 Gloucestershire to Chessington.  GOM showed it as being within range but I figured a quick top up on the way, only to find surprise surprise Ecotricity wasn’t working.

 

Got to the hotel at Chessington and 3 of the 4 chargers were ICEd by blue badge holders (and the forth by an Xc90 hybrid).  Thankfully there was just enough room to park at a funny angle and hook up to the power parking on chevrons to one side of the parking and just stretch the wire across. It’s about time hotel chargers had bollards to stop people blocking them.

[PenrithBeacon]

On 07/07/2021 at 12:40, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

In this video review the car is shown coming to a stand because the driver took his foot off the accelerator. Cute feature, but do the brake light come on to tell the next driver it's stopping?  

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

In this video review the car is shown coming to a stand because the driver took his foot off the accelerator. Cute feature, but do the brake light come on to tell the next driver it's stopping?  

 

Yes

[Ian Morgan]

32 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

In this video review the car is shown coming to a stand because the driver took his foot off the accelerator. Cute feature, but do the brake light come on to tell the next driver it's stopping?  

 

In my 3 year old Ioniq, a gentle decelleration does not illuminate the brake lights, but take the foot off the accellerator a bit more, and they do light up. It does not bring it to a compete standstill though.

 

[boxbrownie]

38 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

In this video review the car is shown coming to a stand because the driver took his foot off the accelerator. Cute feature, but do the brake light come on to tell the next driver it's stopping?  

All EVs have to illuminate the brake light at a specified deceleration rate, it is in the legislation.

 

We can drive the i3 virtually without touching the brake, deceleration can be controlled easily by lifting off the accel pedal gradually in normal driving.  It is a very satisfying way to drive.

Edited July 11, 2021 by boxbrownie

[Ian Morgan]

Yesterday I visited the Amberley Chalk Pits Museum with 3 mates from the model railway club. I had checked routes on Zap-Map, and it reckoned it was 70 miles away, touch and go with a full charge indicating 145 mile range, and four adults onboard. I noted the postcodes of a few rapid chargers on route, expecting to need a top-up on the way back. In the event, the car's SatNav took us a slightly shorter, and more picturesque route and I got home with 20 miles range left. That was with some windscreen wiper action, some headlight time, and air-con on full time. Very pleasing.

 

BTW, at the Amberley Chalk Pits Museum we had a ride on their 1914 petrol-electric Tilling Stevens bus. I saw they are restoring a second petrol-electric bus in the shed too.

 

(not my picture)

 

[Karhedron]

23 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

While I can understand the point about efficiency, I think the point here is about carbon footprint and the environmental effect of extracting Lithium. The carbon footprint of EV is 18% less than ICE but the expansion of surface transportation will soon remove that advantage. There is a need for something better.

 

 

May I ask the source of your 18% figure please? Most of the studies I have read show that BEVs have a significantly reduced carbon footprint compared to ICEs.  The study below is interesting as it shows some interesting points.

 

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change

 

A BEV will "pay back" the increased carbon footprint of manufacture after about 4 years of average use. The lifetime carbon footprint of a BEV is about 50% less than an ICE in the EU based on current engines and electricity generation.

 

The big thing here is that most countries have plans to significantly decarbonise their electricity generation over the next 10 years. Renewable generation accounted for 47% of the UK's electricity supply in 2020, up from 37% in 2019. That may be slightly exaggerated as 2020 was quite sunny and windy but it shows that the lifetime carbon footprint of BEVs should fall further as more renewable generation comes on stream.

 

The other factor to take into account is that those figures are based on a lifetime mileage of 150,000 km. This is actually probably an underestimate for both ICEs and BEVs. My last car had 180,000 miles (290,000 km) on the clock when it finally gave up the ghost. But BEVs are projected to have significantly longer lifespans than ICEs due to having far fewer moving parts to wear out. If this proves to be the case in real use then the figures for BEVs look even better as the greater embedded carbon is diluted over a greater mileage, reducing the carbon-per-mile.

 

I do agree what we could do with something better though. Since the pandemic, I have switched from working mostly in the office to only going in 1 day per week. At the moment we are a 2-car family as we have 3 kids, each with assorted after-school activities. But if I can continue to work mainly from home then 1 car may suffice in the future which would save a significant amount of embedded carbon as well as the saving I have already made by driving fewer miles in my current car.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Since the pandemic, I have switched from working mostly in the office to only going in 1 day per week.

 

On that note I worked all winter from the garden shed. It's not insulated but is double skinned with an air gap.

With a 705W heater and laptop + monitor my electricity use went up from driving 50 miles a day in an EV.

[Karhedron]

1 minute ago, 30801 said:

On that note I worked all winter from the garden shed. It's not insulated but is double skinned with an air gap.

With a 705W heater and laptop + monitor my electricity use went up from driving 50 miles a day in an EV.

 

OK, that is not so good but at least in warmer weather that will not be a problem. 

 

I don't have a separate workspace, I just perch at the kitchen table. While my electricity and heating bill has gone up slightly, the drop in my petrol costs was more significant. But you do make a very good point that the carbon impact of a particular change may vary depending on circumstances.

 

I was seriously looking at replacing the small hatchback I use to commute with a BEV but with the reduced mileage, the economics are no longer so favourable. I think it will be more economical to drive it until it falls apart and then look to replace the large family car with a BEV instead. But making long term plans when things are in such a state of flux is probably not a wise decision.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

OK, that is not so good but at least in warmer weather that will not be a problem. 

 

I was seriously looking at replacing the small hatchback I use to commute with a BEV but with the reduced mileage, the economics are no longer so favourable.

 

It won't be a problem because I am now banned from the shed by the health and safety people...

 

I decided that the Mii would earn its keep over its nearest petrol equivalent, a VW Up! if I did about 18k miles per year.

[Ron Ron Ron]

A production example of the BMW i4 was on display at the Goodwood Festival of Speed, this weekend (just gone).

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2021-bmw-i4-makes-uk-debut-ahead-autumn-sales

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

Also shown at Goodwood, was the much anticipated Kia EV6.

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-2021-kia-ev6-sale-may-£40895

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[PenrithBeacon]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

 

May I ask the source of your 18% figure please? Most of the studies I have read show that BEVs have a significantly reduced carbon footprint compared to ICEs.  The study below is interesting as it shows some interesting points.

 

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change

 

A BEV will "pay back" the increased carbon footprint of manufacture after about 4 years of average use. The lifetime carbon footprint of a BEV is about 50% less than an ICE in the EU based on current engines and electricity generation.

 

The big thing here is that most countries have plans to significantly decarbonise their electricity generation over the next 10 years. Renewable generation accounted for 47% of the UK's electricity supply in 2020, up from 37% in 2019. That may be slightly exaggerated as 2020 was quite sunny and windy but it shows that the lifetime carbon footprint of BEVs should fall further as more renewable generation comes on stream.

 

The other factor to take into account is that those figures are based on a lifetime mileage of 150,000 km. This is actually probably an underestimate for both ICEs and BEVs. My last car had 180,000 miles (290,000 km) on the clock when it finally gave up the ghost. But BEVs are projected to have significantly longer lifespans than ICEs due to having far fewer moving parts to wear out. If this proves to be the case in real use then the figures for BEVs look even better as the greater embedded carbon is diluted over a greater mileage, reducing the carbon-per-mile.

 

I do agree what we could do with something better though. Since the pandemic, I have switched from working mostly in the office to only going in 1 day per week. At the moment we are a 2-car family as we have 3 kids, each with assorted after-school activities. But if I can continue to work mainly from home then 1 car may suffice in the future which would save a significant amount of embedded carbon as well as the saving I have already made by driving fewer miles in my current car.

Sorry, I can't find the reference,  but it's probably buried somewhere in The Guardian/BBC/Sky News online articles. Having looked further, prompted by your post, I'm wondering if it's entirely accurate that there's more to it than that. This is typical of what I'm finding and it chimes with your post.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/electric-cars-need-to-be-driven-50000-miles-to-match-carbon-footprint-of-a-petrol-car-research-claims/209636

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/ev-electric-vehicle-carbon-footprint-1.5394126

Edited July 12, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[Ian J.]

6 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

On that note I worked all winter from the garden shed. It's not insulated but is double skinned with an air gap.

With a 705W heater and laptop + monitor my electricity use went up from driving 50 miles a day in an EV.

 

What was your electricity use at work when you were commuting? Your home electricity use will have gone up when working from home, as you say it's more than your commuting use. But for a 'complete' picture you need to factor in the electricity you use/don't use at your place of employment as well.

 

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

 

What was your electricity use at work when you were commuting?

 

It's a special sort of electricity that I don't pay for

 

I only have the one monitor at home rather than the two in the office.

The office is heated by air source heat pumps rather than my shed's simple resistance heater though I doubt the office is actually any better insulated than my shed given its large areas of glass with aluminium frames.

[APOLLO]

Climate change - Sometimes I think we are all wasting out time, money and effort ---

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9779781/Climate-change-Just-25-mega-cities-emit-52-cent-worlds-urban-greenhouse-gases.html

 

Brit15

[Pete the Elaner]

16 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Climate change - Sometimes I think we are all wasting out time, money and effort ---

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9779781/Climate-change-Just-25-mega-cities-emit-52-cent-worlds-urban-greenhouse-gases.html

 

Brit15

 

We could take the view of "why should I bother" but if everybody said the same, it would not help anything.

I am familiar with 1 of the cities low on that list - Bangkok. In terms of metro transport, they are about 120 years behind London but trying to catching up.

Their (electric) skytrain was not opened until 1999 & first underground lines a few years later. These have been extended several times & 2 new underground lines opened in the last 12 months. They are also about to open a brand new mainline station to replace their cramped, diesel-only terminus in the city centre.

They are certainly sharpening up their attitude towards greener transport.

[number6]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Sorry, I can't find the reference,  but it's probably buried somewhere in The Guardian/BBC/Sky News online articles. Having looked further, prompted by your post, I'm wondering if it's entirely accurate that there's more to it than that. This is typical of what I'm finding and it chimes with your post.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/electric-cars-need-to-be-driven-50000-miles-to-match-carbon-footprint-of-a-petrol-car-research-claims/209636

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/ev-electric-vehicle-carbon-footprint-1.5394126

 

There are other ways to say that an EV needs to drive 50,000 miles to match the carbon footprint of a petrol car. How about in 100,000 miles it halves the carbon footprint.

 

And from that article "Once electricity is generated from renewable sources, that figure drops to 31,000 miles." Also: The report commissioned by Honda, McLaren, Aston Martin and Bosch. 

 

I have driven 44,000 miles in 4 years in an i3 and all the electricity used in it has been renewable so it not so hard to reach these figures. It is not per car anyway its in one's lifetime of vehicle ownership. If you assume you might own a car your whole adult life - say 18 to 72, those 60 years of driving 11,000 a year is quite a mileage to add up: 11k x 60 = 660,000 miles. So 629,000 miles of the 660,000 is running lower than the carbon footprint of an equivalent petrol vehicle which continues to create carbon in a way an EV does not. This is a considerably smaller carbon footprint. 

[Guest]

Tesla not doing themselves any favours with repairs again.

$16,000 battery replacement for a broken plastic pipe fitting.

 

 

[Ian J.]

5 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

It's a special sort of electricity that I don't pay for

 

I only have the one monitor at home rather than the two in the office.

The office is heated by air source heat pumps rather than my shed's simple resistance heater though I doubt the office is actually any better insulated than my shed given its large areas of glass with aluminium frames.

 

I think that this is the point though. We need to have a mindset to think not just about the carbon emission that we immediately pay for, but to think about all the things we do that cause carbon emission, including in our jobs, and the things we buy for our hobbies. What's our employer's carbon footprint? What's the carbon footprint of that Hornby/Bachmann/Dapol/Heljan/etc. locomotive we just bought (including raw materials extraction; processing; actual manufacture; transportation; etc)? It's so much more than just using a low / no emissions car to get to work.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT) figures for new car registrations in June 2021.

(inc. a comparison with the start of this year - Jan 2021)

 

186,128 total of new cars registered in June 2021

(note: 90,249 new cars registered in Jan 2021 - compared with 149,279 in Jan 2020 - pre-Covid )

 

 

Market share by fuel/power  ........

 

June 2021

 

Diesel                            8.1%.     (down from 12.3% in Jan 2021)

Mild-hybrid Diesel      6.1%      (down from 6.9% in Jan 2021)

Petrol.                         46.4%.     (down from 49.8% in Jan 2021)

Mild-hybrid Petrol.    13.5%.    (up from 9.8% in Jan 2021)

Hybrid                          8.7%.     (up  from 7.6% in Jan 2021)

Plug-in Hybrid             6.5%.     (down from 6.8% in Jan 2021)

BEV (battery).             10.7%.      (up from 6.9% in Jan 2021)

 

The figures for BEV's haven't yet repeated December 2020's figure of 16.5% market share, which appears to have been a blip, but have steadily grown from 2.7% in Jan 2020.

10.7% in Jun 2021

6.9% in Jan 2021

6.1% in Jun 2020

2.7% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

Pure ICE (Petrol & Diesel) now only accounting for 54.5% of the new car market.

A comparison with previous periods...

54.5% in Jun 2021

62.1% in Jan 2021

76.3% in Jun 2020

80.5% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

Include the new Mild Hybrid ICE (both Petrol & Diesel) and the total ICE figures are...

74.1% in Jun 2021

78.8% in Jan 2021

83.5% in Jun 2020

88.0% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

BEV, PHEV & Hybrid combined, accounted for 25.9% , a quarter of the new car market.

25.9% in Jun 2021

21.3% in Jan 2021

16.5% in Jun 2020

11.9% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

Separating out Hybrid's and Plug-in Hybrids, combined, these accounted for...

15.2% in Jun 2021

14.4% in Jan 2021

10.4% in Jun 2020

9.2% in Jan 2020 (pre-Covid)

 

 

The rate of changeover will almost certainly increase over the next 12 months, as many more pure EV's are introduced in volume numbers, in addition to the increasing number of ICE cars that are being offered with the plug-in hybrid option.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited August 11, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron