John Harris Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 On 30/10/2021 at 08:43, 30801 said: New cheapish EV on the way. I've seen the ORA CAT and the Alpha Ace https://youtu.be/FuKJ5fwToJg Both look better than the rest of the forthcoming EVs. Sadly, I fear that the "cheap" tag is based on directly converting Chinese prices, unfortunately prices seem to double once they reach Europe, an Audi Q2 E-tron is under £20K in China. I can't see Audi selling it for much under £35K in the UK. jch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, John Harris said: I think hydrogen is the "way forward" for construction equipment, after all many will be use some distance from charging facilities, for example on the HS2 sites. I suspect it will also be the solution to heavy goods vehicles, the operators will not wish to lug a couple of tons of batteries around. I know Tesla is promising EV trucks, but long-term running costs are a serious consideration for the likes of Eddie Stobart. Cars and light vans will be electric. Personally, having seen idiots spilling petrol & diesel around at the pumps, I'm not sure I can trust other motorists to re-fuel hydrogen. jch I manage infrastructure projects, nozzle control isn’t any better on site as the public manage and we are dominated by H&S so it will be interesting how the handling & storage of hydrogen fuel is handled. Will it need a 24/7 power supply if it’s liquid? Using Hydrogen might cut down fuel thefts though as it can’t be sold to someone as heating fuel If JCB are committing such investment then they are clearly confident in the hydrogen burning engines and expecting mass market availability next year. I’ll have to make enquiries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, John Harris said: I think hydrogen is the "way forward" for construction equipment, after all many will be use some distance from charging facilities, for example on the HS2 sites. I suspect it will also be the solution to heavy goods vehicles, the operators will not wish to lug a couple of tons of batteries around. I know Tesla is promising EV trucks, but long-term running costs are a serious consideration for the likes of Eddie Stobart. Cars and light vans will be electric. Personally, having seen idiots spilling petrol & diesel around at the pumps, I'm not sure I can trust other motorists to re-fuel hydrogen. jch There are various options for lorries and a hybrid hydrogen/electric vehicle would sound the most clean option. Germany is trialling powering lorries via overhead power lines in lane one of main arteries which looks promising but will require massive investment on infrastructure and vehicles - but could be self funding & profitable. In terms of filling up a vehicle, our current style of sticking a nozzle into a hole in the side of a car is based on the existing technology that became the norm like vhs/betamax - for hydrogren a new norm would have to be established (and quickly) to ensure it is safe for everyday handling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, woodenhead said: There are various options for lorries and a hybrid hydrogen/electric vehicle would sound the most clean option. Germany is trialling powering lorries via overhead power lines in lane one of main arteries which looks promising but will require massive investment on infrastructure and vehicles - but could be self funding & profitable. In terms of filling up a vehicle, our current style of sticking a nozzle into a hole in the side of a car is based on the existing technology that became the norm like vhs/betamax - for hydrogren a new norm would have to be established (and quickly) to ensure it is safe for everyday handling. There is a DfT funded ‘innovation’ trial being delivered by Costain to install OLE on a U.K. motorway for HGV use. The irony that we struggle to fit OLE to Rail due to DfT apathy is huge and the current cost hikes on using rail OLE is seeing all FOCs reduce its use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, black and decker boy said: There is a DfT funded ‘innovation’ trial being delivered by Costain to install OLE on a U.K. motorway for HGV use. The irony that we struggle to fit OLE to Rail due to DfT apathy is huge and the current cost hikes on using rail OLE is seeing all FOCs reduce its use. The model being looked at in Germany would pay for itself including replacing all the tractor units i.e. the cost of the power would pay for the installation over a long period but the reduction in costs for the transport companies would be big enough to justify wholesale switching to electric vehicles. Of course, that is in Germany, I wonder what plans the UK will come up with........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
idd15 Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 Fun filled fact - you still get NOX emissions if you burn hydrogen! Let's hope Bamfords plan is to use fuel cells and electric motors... Idd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocor Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 1 hour ago, idd15 said: Fun filled fact - you still get NOX emissions if you burn hydrogen! Let's hope Bamfords plan is to use fuel cells and electric motors... Idd It appears that is what they are doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 1 hour ago, idd15 said: Fun filled fact - you still get NOX emissions if you burn hydrogen! Let's hope Bamfords plan is to use fuel cells and electric motors... Idd It isn't. It's straight up let's try to keep as much of the existing diesel powertrain as we can. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, rocor said: It appears that is what they are doing. Don't know why that video say's it's hydrogen fuel cell when there's a gert big exhaust pipe sticking out of the engine. Bamford is pretty unequivocal about fuel cells being expensive and going down the road of cheap (but not to run) hydrogen combustion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 What's coming out of the exhaust pipe looks a lot like steam to me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocor Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 The excavator does have written all along its side "JCB hydrogen fuel cell technology". https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/news/2020/07/jcb-leads-the-way-with-first-hydrogen-fuelled-excavator 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 The only byproduct of a fuel cell running on pure hydrogen is water. If a fuel cell uses reformed methane small amounts of nitrogen oxides are a byproduct. Burning hydrogen in an internal combustion engine does produce oxides of nitrogen as does any high temperature reaction that uses air rather than pure oxygen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 3 hours ago, idd15 said: Fun filled fact - you still get NOX emissions if you burn hydrogen! Let's hope Bamfords plan is to use fuel cells and electric motors... Idd The impression I have is that burning hydrogen gives a lot less NOX than burning fossil fuel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said: The impression I have is that burning hydrogen gives a lot less NOX than burning fossil fuel. It depends on the combustion temperature. If it's as high as a diesel engine the oxides of nitrogen produced will be similar. EDIT: The big difference is there is no carbon involved in the reaction which means there is no production of oxides of carbon. Edited October 31, 2021 by AndyID moinfo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx I can't say I understand most of this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 10 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx I can't say I understand most of this Unless you happen to enjoy balancing the equations for chemical reactions (which I was never any good at) the first three paragraphs just about covers it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted October 31, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 31, 2021 I assume this has been posted before but just in case........... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 20 hours ago, idd15 said: Fun filled fact - you still get NOX emissions if you burn hydrogen! Let's hope Bamfords plan is to use fuel cells and electric motors... Idd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_nitrogen_engine This site directly contradicts this statement, as do others. 'One advantage of the liquid nitrogen vehicle is that the exhaust gas is simply nitrogen, a component of air, and thus it produces no localized air pollution in the tailpipe emissions' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 10 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_nitrogen_engine This site directly contradicts this statement, as do others. 'One advantage of the liquid nitrogen vehicle is that the exhaust gas is simply nitrogen, a component of air, and thus it produces no localized air pollution in the tailpipe emissions' Who was talking about liquid nitrogen engines? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted November 1, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2021 Bamfords (JCB), as in the Bamford Bus Company also own WrightBus, which they are using as a platform to promote hydrogen powered buses. As in this Wrightbus Streetdeck which is part of an order for National Express West Midlands: https://wmbusphotos.com/NXWM/H1001/H1014.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Vistisen Posted November 1, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2021 On 31/10/2021 at 10:26, woodenhead said: There are various options for lorries and a hybrid hydrogen/electric vehicle would sound the most clean option. Germany is trialling powering lorries via overhead power lines in lane one of main arteries which looks promising but will require massive investment on infrastructure and vehicles - but could be self funding & profitable. In terms of filling up a vehicle, our current style of sticking a nozzle into a hole in the side of a car is based on the existing technology that became the norm like vhs/betamax - for hydrogren a new norm would have to be established (and quickly) to ensure it is safe for everyday handling. What about using steel rail to cut friction. You could join a whole load of lorries together and just have one driver at the front... Reminds me of something. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MPR Posted November 1, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2021 1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_nitrogen_engine This site directly contradicts this statement, as do others. 'One advantage of the liquid nitrogen vehicle is that the exhaust gas is simply nitrogen, a component of air, and thus it produces no localized air pollution in the tailpipe emissions' That's a different kind of engine entirely (sort of like a fireless steam locomotive, but working from the reverse temperature difference!) - I don't think it is a particularly likely technology to be used widely. By the way, JCB's plans were covered in a recent BBC radio programme called "39 Ways to Save the Planet" https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0010xpd Basically, they see a mix of solutions (battery electric for smaller, lower duty cycle applications, fuel cell for applications were charging would be take too long, hydrogen combustion engines for applications where working environment is very rough (fuel cells are regarded as being delicate). As ever, fuel cells and combustion engines give nothing like the overall efficiency of battery systems - but there are other factors at play here and these technologies may have a place in a decarbonised future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, 30801 said: Who was talking about liquid nitrogen engines? I thought that was implicit in the conversation as it's not to obvious to me how you'd fill up at a roadside filling station with a gas and not a liquid. Clearly there is something I'm missing, please tell me! Edited November 1, 2021 by PenrithBeacon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 44 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: I thought that was implicit in the conversation as it's not to obvious to me how you'd fill up at a roadside filling station with a gas and not a liquid. Clearly there is something I'm missing, please tell me! Filling with gas is a doddle. The LPG people have been doing it for years. Either a bayonet or a screw fitting. Same for hydrogen although I think the pressure used is a bit higher. Nitrogen is liquid below 196°C it's not something you want to be messing with on the forecourt. Used as 'fuel' it cools the cold side of a Stirling engine. I'm not sure anyone is proposing using it for traction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, 30801 said: Filling with gas is a doddle. The LPG people have been doing it for years. Either a bayonet or a screw fitting. Same for hydrogen although I think the pressure used is a bit higher. Nitrogen is liquid below 196°C it's not something you want to be messing with on the forecourt. Used as 'fuel' it cools the cold side of a Stirling engine. I'm not sure anyone is proposing using it for traction. https://www.matfoundrygroup.com/News and Blog/Is_the_Future_of_Automotive_Nitrogen_Cars I cannot find an online reference to gaseous nitrogen engines, only liquid nitrogen engines. That is to say that the fuel is stored on board in its gaseous not liquid state and then input to the engine in its liquid form. If you can find such a reference I'd be grateful if could share it. Edited November 1, 2021 by PenrithBeacon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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