Ingleford Wharf: 1870s canalside inglenook on the "M&WJR" in 00, and Victoria Quay: a 1900s WIP in 0

[drduncan]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

Si :)

Good, provided you didn’t also do it at the fixed end!

 

If the pivot wire is too loose a fit in the cradle and w iron holes then you can loose the height you need for it to pivot. The D & S type can sometimes give less than a mm of movement, but even .5 should be enough to take the edge off bad track…

 

D

[Graham T]

8 minutes ago, Schooner said:

 

I don't like Mondays

 

Tell me why...

 

[NeilHB]

That dumb buffered open with outside framing is delightful, quite delightful! Looks just like the sort of wagon my tramway would have acquired third or fourth hand 😁

 

What are the origins of it please? 

[Schooner]

31 minutes ago, Graham T said:

 

Tell me why...

 

[Schooner]

19 minutes ago, NeilHB said:

 

What are the origins of it please? 

 PM sent.

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Graham T said:

 

Tell me why...

 

 

If we told you....

[Schooner]

Productive little session first thing this morning, and time for a quick review now. As ever, a couple of questions and opinions sought:

 

The leet...

...should have a visible culvert under the lane, so it's more obvious it comes from somewhere?

 

The newly created little yards at the back, formed by the impulse-wall along the edge of the layout

should have...something. What? Ignore the colour of the lane and the seepage under the hole-in-the-wall gate on to the wharf, or blame it on Cruel Misfortune. Definitely not because we found ourselves at home to Mr Cockup...

 

Gut instinct is that, being Gloucestershire and a well-known symbol, it would be a shame not to have one of these handsome fellows*

rooting around on-scene somewhere. Plan A was to have a pigsty in one of the RHS fields, but I'm going off this idea for a couple of reasons. Could the little yard (with the gate) be a reasonable spot? To the right of that the triangle tapers to nothing. I was thinking about some raised rough ground - perhaps halfway up the rear wall, 2/3 the way up the front wall making the latter a retaining wall? - just with a bit of greenery poking up to break up the sightline along the back...?

 

*By fellow I actually mean sow and some very new piglets so we know it's Spring as well as that we're in Gloucestershire, but isn't he a beauty!

 

 

On the New Wharf, we have some options:

1)

Just posts?

 

2)

Posts and rings?

 

3)

Why choose?

 

I like the mooring posts - clear visual difference with the Old Wharf, another layer to look over/through for that whole depth perception thing, practical necessity etc - but would it benefit from a little more? If so, rings or posts? WIP, just base colours on the posts etc.

 

Was also able to break the back of a couple of tiny jobs that have been on the list for ages:

The lad from the village who desperately wants to grow up to be an engine driver has been cruelly taken advantage of  kindly allowed to help with the polishing of the watertank fittings. Again, just blocking out the primary colours so it's a bit overkill but you get the idea! Contemplating a little scene of the lad hard at work with cloth and polish, bucket of red paint nearby for touching up the handles, while the men lounge about enjoying their lunchbreak in the sunshine. It's all a bit twee for me really, but was an excuse to try out every shade of metallic paint I posses.

 

And finally this one, which like all the above is absolute rot in terms of realism, but still a stylising/personalising aesthetic and operational detail:

First, you have to kill it. Stab as required.

 

Then you need to bury it. Bury it deep.

 

...so that you can get it back from the dead...end. As previously

 

It should hopefully also help draw the eye along those diagonals we spoke about previously.

 

So yeah, smashing out a couple of those cheeky small jobs which never seem a good use of time so tend to cluster up. Productive morning break getting a bit written up. Small but pleasing, as the actress... Feedback, please! On the layout questions, not the other thing...

Edited March 28, 2023 by Schooner
Link added. Softened the funny slightly, so to speak

[WFPettigrew]

42 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Posts and rings?

 

My initial reaction having spent a lovely quarter of an hour by one of the "steamer" moorings on Windermere yesterday is that you need BIG posts, but of course that's not typical of canals.  (And Windermere does go up and down dramatically, no its not that big that it's tidal (!) but because of rain...)  

Looking back through your prototype photos of wharves, two things struck me.  Firstly that when there are posts (either square and hefty like at Cirencester, or less often round) they do stick up noticably above the surrounding ground level - after all if you are trying to get the rope over a post to tie up, you need that post not to be so low that  the rope pings off at the slightest provocation.  And secondly quite what a dearth of mooring posts etc there seemed to be although some of your photos are boats tied up on grassy banks, where certainly in modern canal use a peg would be driven into the ground and the rope tied off on that.   But I would say the evidence suggests posts not rings, and posts need to project maybe a couple of feet (in real life) above the ground level?

 

HTH

 

Neil 

[Schooner]

Note: On having written this I'm aware that it might seem like a massive overkill, but I just wanted to have a thorough check of my understanding and having gone to the trouble of digging out the pics it seems a waste not to share. I'm grateful for the opportunity to get more familiar with the sources Ingleford leans on :) Right, back to the begining:

 

 

8 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Looking back through your prototype photos of wharves, two things struck me.  Firstly that when there are posts (either square and hefty like at Cirencester, or less often round) they do stick up noticably above the surrounding ground level

 

Innnnnnteresting...would you mind linking me back to the pics you see those in?

 

I'm looking at Cirencester and not seeing any mooring infrastructure at all:

 

Going on to check the other places I have in the back of my mind when working on the layout, we have

Honey Street

 

Parkend Wharf, Lechlade

 

Hungerford

Oh, none of those are embeddable. Pity, there's two really handy ones! Well, while there's a bit of a break pop this on and have a listen while looking at the rest

 

(although if you're going to watch one, then probably watch the composer play it here ; I prefer her sound but his movement)

 

Eastington

 

and, most crucially of all 'cos it's my only excuse for the New Wharf, Brimscombe Port

 

...not really seeing much of anything. Maybe an single post set well back from the edge at Parkend?

 

But yes - in general square post good, round bad (not enough friction) and 2' sounds about right, and indeed those posts extend about 8mm up above the ground :) I think that leaves us with mooring posts being and/or rings, set into posts or the ground being a-historical...

 

...oh well! Back to an aesthetic choice:

• mooring posts only
• mooring posts and rings on wharf
• mooring posts and rings in posts

? I've got no strong opinions so interested to hear what we think looks best. For reference the water level is likely to be up to the bottom of the post-mounted ring/highest draught mark on the stem of the trow (if that's visible in the pics).

 

Because everyone's been so good sitting through lots of pictures of boats and none of trains, here's two of Bradford on Avon in the 1870s

because they're both excellent.

 

Cheers and gone!

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

mooring posts and rings on wharf

 

Have cake, eat cake. Yum.

[drduncan]

I’m not convinced about square mooring posts based on my knowledge of ports and docks (sea type not inland canal I admit).

 

Square posts are used on the face of a wharf or jetty as rubbing strakes to fend off the vessel from the structure while berthed. A square mooring post would have sharp edges that will chafe the eye of the mooring hawser, possibly causing it to part as the vessel works against the jetty due to the actions of wind and tide. All the mooring posts/bollards I can think of have been round (but of course I haven’t inspected every mooring arrangement in every UK port).

 

Probably not helpful but….

 

Duncan

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, drduncan said:

A square mooring post would have sharp edges that will chafe the eye of the mooring hawser

 

A square mooring post would quite rapidly become a round mooring post, or so it seems to me.

[drduncan]

I can think of stone mooring posts, and metal, but not wood - as you imply probably too susceptible to rapid wear from lines and hawsers.

 

I admit that the situation and practices on inland waterways might be very different.

 

I seem to remember that rond anchors (looks like an oversized fish hook you stamphammer into the ground) were often cited for inland waterways for mooring to a soft (ie not paved) jetty or bankside.

[WFPettigrew]

11 hours ago, Schooner said:

not seeing any mooring infrastructure at all:

I thought the block of wood in front of the flagpole (?) between the coal cart and Mr Natty Dresser??

 

But I accept that most of the pictures don't show anything obvious.  But clearly they MUST have tied up somehow?!

[Asterix2012]

4 hours ago, drduncan said:

I’m not convinced about square mooring posts based on my knowledge of ports and docks (sea type not inland canal I admit).

 

Square posts are used on the face of a wharf or jetty as rubbing strakes to fend off the vessel from the structure while berthed. A square mooring post would have sharp edges that will chafe the eye of the mooring hawser, possibly causing it to part as the vessel works against the jetty due to the actions of wind and tide. All the mooring posts/bollards I can think of have been round (but of course I haven’t inspected every mooring arrangement in every UK port).

 

Probably not helpful but….

 

Duncan

Agreed, all the mooring posts I can remember have been round, admittedly in ports and harbours rather than canals 

[Schooner]

5 hours ago, drduncan said:

Probably not helpful but….

Not just helpful, but quite right!

 

Like you, I'm more familiar with the maritime than the inland and had never even heard of a 

till reading your message! 

 

They seem to be a particularly Norfolk thing*, although reading some relevant fora they've been spotted as far afield as Oxfordshire in recent years. Climate change induced migration, perhaps.

 

*"Rhond" two likely roots, I read: a dialect corruption of reeds, referring to the almost-land of reedbed and marsh; or from the same Germanic root as eg Rhône, referring to a constrained waterway. 

 

5 hours ago, drduncan said:

Square posts are used on the face of a wharf or jetty as rubbing strakes to fend off the vessel from the structure while berthed.

And indeed as piles, often with slight batter especially along older walls, to support and retain the wall itself. It's this aspect I thought I could lean on for the New Wharf idea - it being dug out and dredged from the original Navigation.

 

5 hours ago, drduncan said:

A square mooring post would have sharp edges that will chafe the eye of the mooring hawser, possibly causing it to part as the vessel works against the jetty due to the actions of wind and tide.

Definitely causing it to part - chafe is the enemy! (But friction is your friend). But...I'm 90% sure that modern 'small boat' practice would have been followed - bitter end made fast on board and the tail taken ashore to be tied off as required*. A round turn and two would be a go-to for this

...and again I read that it's seen as best practice nowadays, although that guarantees nothing, then or now! The benefit of the round turn is that you greatly reduce movement around the post, limiting chafe and so damage to the line. Not common but not that unusual to see bowlines tied with a round turn, likewise a turn being taken in a spliced eye, if chafe around a post is a concern.

 

*As opposed to 'big ship' practice of sending a fixed eye ashore and managing it on board**.

**Although on further reflection I'm less sure. There would always have been at least one person ashore, tending the horse, and often two or more on board - either paid crew or, later, family. The manpower increase makes the most convenient method to keep the rope on board and just send the end to be tied off on whatever ashore. Looking at the images below, this does seem to have been more common. Change of mind on this, then.

 

5 hours ago, drduncan said:

All the mooring posts/bollards I can think of have been round

Likewise, but I've also popped a line around square piles, or onto the rings sometimes bolted into them if such luxury was available, when that was the best option; and on board they're made off around the square wooden posts of bitts and kevels*. On canals the only ones I can think of are small metal T or mushrooms, in the waiting basins around locks....?

 

*'Modern' bitts on the metal vessels of the past 150 years or so are metal also, and universally use round posts because Reasons. We're thinking 1870s, and of vessels built in the preceding half-century.

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A square mooring post would quite rapidly become a round mooring post, or so it seems to me.

Oak > hemp so not that rapid, but Langley is of the same mind - which does mess with my idea of the New Wharf being New -

with good reason

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-wakefield-stanley-ferry-canal-basin-early-1900s-57337491.html

A lovely photo, not least for the fantastic face. Nicely worn square posts there. I was quite cheered to look along the wharf edge on the RHS...but it's just a support for the loading deck (?) above sistered up to an older pile on this side...?

 

http://friendsofregentscanal.org/features/tourism/CIC/images-June-2013/old-photos/Camden-Town-1911.jpg

 

Another 'close but no cigar'. Lots to like about this photo though... :) If I had to bet I'd say tied onto a ring just in from the edging, like

that.

 

I've seen more evidence of square posts in the context of locks, eg

and docks

https://www.alamy.com/entrance-to-the-regents-canal-limehouse-london-illustration-by-th-h-shepherd-1828-image244285564.html (both images on Regents Canal)

 

...and even more evidence of 'meh, whatever, that'll do'. Look, this one's even railway related. Never say I don't try!

 

So where does that all leave us, apart from half an hour down and late for lunch?

• Was it normal to have canal wharves lined with square piles, and to use same for mooring? Absolutely not.
• If canal wharf was lined with square piles, would they have been used for moorning? By someone at some point, probably.
• On Ingleford is it jarring to use those Langley posts? Yeah, a little.
• Do they add anything to the scene to compensate? I think so, on balance.
• Are there any viable alternatives? The go-to is rings (also Langley), with their lower visual impact all round. Pros and cons but it's the obvious, possibly better, choice.

 

Does the above seem reasonable?

 

 

4 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

I thought the block of wood in front of the flagpole (?) between the coal cart and Mr Natty Dresser??

Open hatch I think, with the pole stepped on the hull underneath and braced against the hatch...?

Edited March 29, 2023 by Schooner
Sp. but also a slight change on mind added

[magmouse]

28 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Does the above seem reasonable?

Yes - and thanks for the great pictures en route to getting to Reasonable. So many atmospheric scenes, so few lifetimes…

 

Nick

[drduncan]

The problem with tying off on a post (whatever it’s shape) is bulk - it eats space on the post and limits how many lines can be secured to it (hence using an eye which uses less space but can cause other problems when casting off if subsequent eyes are not ‘dipped’). I think rings seem a more practical solution as many lines can be fed through them then back to the respective vessels to be secured. This also makes casting off easier as you don’t need to be on the wharf to cast off - you can pull a line through the ring from onboard. 
D

Edited March 29, 2023 by drduncan

[Schooner]

You're quite right but it'd take a mighty bit of string to fill 24" of post in two turns!

 

2 hours ago, drduncan said:

‘dipped’

In case this is news to people, it's a handy life skill!

 

2 hours ago, drduncan said:

I think rings seem a more practical solution as many lines can be fed through them then back to the respective vessels to be secured.

Yes and no, for whilst this is true the same applies to posts, and one wouldn't want to be hanging off a line rigged to slip (both ends made off on board, untie one end and pull the other) for longer than necessary (chafe). Related to having a link of chain or two on a mooring ring - each line, from the same vessel or not, goes onto a link (tied or shackled if a fixed eye) to keep everything tidy and, crucially, independent. Anyway, canals...

 

To the best of my latest 15-mins-sleuthing-over-a-coffee knowledge this is about typical, for late practice at least:

on the Trent and Mersey, mid-late '60s. Using one fixed strong point and one peg; boat and butty tied to each other, new arrivals simply tied to their neighbour.

 

I think as a general guide, in earlier periods you're less likely to find permanent strongpoints built into wharves (although it would be entirely consistent with the conceit behind Ingleford) and less likely to see slips. Prototype for everything, of course!

 

Before moving on, here's a brace of interesting shots and a trio of lovely ones I picked up along the way. Open in new tab and zoom for full effect and to follow back to the source address.

 

Issued as yet unresolved, but I think settled enough to move on. Almost time for the next wagon...

Edited March 29, 2023 by Schooner
Tautology removal to take out some extra words which only said the same thing I'd said before again...

[mullie]

The recent photos have been thoroughly absorbing, sorry I can't offer any assistance as it is beyond my experience, I'm trying to get a grip on a simple layout for rope shunting, something different again.

 

 

Martyn

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, mullie said:

...a simple layout for rope shunting...

 

You have my attention, go on...

 

:)

[mullie]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

 

You have my attention, go on...

 

:)

The photo below is an overall view before full scenic development took place. I want to get a wagon from the siding on the right to the siding at the bottom. The turntable was scratchbuilt from oddments of rail and copper clad in EM. It is worked by Meccano bits brought from Ebay.

 

 

The next photo gives a different view, the plan is to get the wagon onto the front siding. I am not sure how to lay out capstans etc for rope shunting. I have also toyed with the idea of something, perhaps using magnets to move a wagon giving the impression of movement by hand or employ an incredibly small horse, or failing that a Jack Russell! Sorry for any thread hi jack.

 

 

The problem I foresee using magnets is what I could call the Kadee effect where wagons spring towards an uncoupling magnet though the S&W magnets are quite weak.

[figworthy]

7 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-wakefield-stanley-ferry-canal-basin-early-1900s-57337491.html

A lovely photo, not least for the fantastic face. Nicely worn square posts there. I was quite cheered to look along the wharf edge on the RHS...but it's just a support for the loading deck (?) above sistered up to an older pile on this side...?

 

 

 

 

 

Picking up on these two.

 

The first one (apart from the interesting selection of craft), under the overhanging thing, there appears to be a small mooring post (below, and slightly to the left of the watermark "a".  Typical of the Aire & Calder, metal ~6" diameter with a disc on the top ~1" overhang (think of a T in cross section), usually painted white on the top.  I've just had a quick look through some of the books in by collection, and there isn't anything like a standard.  Square posts, round posts (both in wood or metal), rings.  Take your pick, it seems to vary from company to company, and quite likely changing with time as well.

 

That second one, nothing to do with the mooring, but it looks as though the inside boat has some from of experimental engine system.

 

Adrian

[IanM78]

16 hours ago, Schooner said:

Issued as yet unresolved, but I think settled enough to move on. Almost time for the next wagon...

 

How about mooring rings?

 

Would explain why in the pictures you can't really see what the boats are moored with.

 

There are also several still in situ along the Stroudwater and Thames & Severn.

 

 

[Schooner]

14 hours ago, mullie said:

Sorry for any thread hi jack.

Not at all - I started it! Thought-provoking stuff...not least because some of it was familiar. The 7mm getting under way (first concrete progress today, woop woop) has a wagon TT; future 4mm plans include them also.

 

Like you I'd like it to be manually operated, rather than electrical, and like you I'd considered Mechano (and indeed Lego Technic) parts although probably on a shaft staunch enough to carry a decent weight (does it still count as a flywheel?) to give a suitable feel. For my purposes, and perhaps yours, the TT only needs to rotate through 90 which makes indexing simple - there can just be physical stops.

 

Also like you I'm considering rope shunting and have now have a trial set up on Ingleford to have a play with (see above), and/or magnets. I've actually used the 'Kadee Effect' to help secure wagons at the end of sidings! It's not much, but it definitely helps :) Anyway, much of interest and and I'd be keen to compare notes as we go... :)

 

2 hours ago, IanM78 said:

 

How about mooring rings?

Yes, I think this is the right answer. Because I want to mark a difference, I feel my choice is between 'pegs only on the Old Wharf, fixed rings on the New' or 'rings and pegs on the Old Wharf, posts on the New' and of those I think I'm still leaning towards the latter, but not for reasons of historical accuracy!

 

3 hours ago, IanM78 said:

 

There are also several still in situ along the Stroudwater and Thames & Severn.

This is good to know, thank you :)

 

Last night was a bit of a long one, and still thinking about Postgate I thought I'd do a bit of set-dressing to put them in better context

Thoughts?

 

Imagine the canal full of...well, best not speculate and just stick with 'water', the posts weathered and in use, sidings full etc. I don't think they'd look awful, although I think we all agree that they don't look right. This then 'allows' a couple of fixed rings in the corners of the coal wharf/scene and maybe another pair by the timber wharf/scene...or maybe that barge will just be pegged.

 

To put the context in context, having come this far:

Coal scene

 

What will be the timber scene. The missing section of wall is at the back btw, from the style disappearing behind the Wills Barn. Where is it?!

 

Nice little 'photo plank' spot. Although I'm looking forward to getting the layout moved into better lighting! @mullie that's the chain shunting post on the left there, allowing a loco travelling left down the shed road to pull a wagon on the adjacent loading dock road past it to the right, effectively running round to allow shunting wagons to/from the timber scene. Silly, but fun :)

 

 

All WIP, obviously and I remain disheartened by the FUBAR with what was hoped to be the final go with the ground cover, but it's all learning I suppose. And if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing right  again! Still, coming together little bit by little bit.

 

We'll see how we go, but by this evening there's a risk of being distracted by Other Things. Updates almost certain to follow.

 

Ciao