Ingleford Wharf: 1870s canalside inglenook on the "M&WJR" in 00, and Victoria Quay: a 1900s WIP in 0

[Schooner]

[drduncan]

Either your coaster’s aground or the red (and I stress not green) monster is going to need water wings.

D

[Schooner]

Why choose?

[Schooner]

Hello? Topic? Is that you? Long time no see!

 

A little light research in the Gloucestershire County Archives has unearthed some of the earliest known photographs of the developing railway wharf at Ingleford, believed to have been taken by an apprentice clerk at the nearby pin mill. Captions quoted from those written on the reverse.

 

"In Memoriam Pothole" (E. J. Thribb, 17 1/2)

 

"So. Farewell then, peaceful morn" E. Jarvis Thribb (17 1/2)

 

"Like Keith you stood. Crooked." (E.J.T. 17 and one half)

 

"Looking down, you see

Us as we see Keith's mum.

Open

And laid bare."

(E.J.Thribb 17 1/2)

 

It is believed possible that the photographer was developing this hobby alongside his burgeoning career as a poet of national (dis)repute. The last two photographs are believed to be taken on the locally-owned Stroud barge Ida, from deck and rig respectively, known to trade from Ingleford in the c.1865-1880. Although seen by many critics as a figure of fun, we should not dismiss the courage and dedication required by a young Thribb to carry his camera equipment aloft with the apparent sole aim of immortalising one dear to his heart.

[Graham T]

I wasn't sure whether to give this one a craftsmanship or a funny!

 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Schooner said:

A little light research in the Gloucestershire County Archives has unearthed some of the earliest known photographs of the developing railway wharf at Ingleford, believed to have been taken by an apprentice clerk at the nearby pin mill.

 

So, what do we think? Are those wagons red or grey?

[Nick C]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So, what do we think? Are those wagons red or grey?

Yes, they are.

[Schooner]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Are those wagons red or grey?

Indeed! More on this shortly...

 

Uninspired to continue cleaning up the rather tired mouldings on my copy of

or to make up the batches of side chains that need done*, nor even to dig out the chinchilla powder and start making a mess again, perhaps it's time for a general update.

 

*Hilariously (YMMV, mine certainly did), the chain I thought I'd bought for the job is too fine by half. Literally. On the plus side, the job from now on will be that bit easier. On the down side, there is still the entire job to go...

 

General

There has been, as noted here, a slight change of direction with my modelling recently. Whilst thoughts of 7mm were always floating around, the move from hypothetical to very real happened slightly faster than intended. As before, it is largely the fault of a small Midland loco, and therefore @Compound2632. Whether this is worthy of praise or condemnation remains to be seen...

 

Ingleford always had quite a broad remit, but this needs rationalised now time and funds are split between two scales. Although a bit of a wrench, this has been simple. I have a Midland loco, but no stock - the Midland scheme goes. I have GWR stock, but no loco - the GW scheme goes. I have a gorgeous High Level Neilson, built by @Carnforth, which both deserves to be let out of its box and needs to do some work on the wharf to become a good value loco rather than a poor value ornament. I have a stash of kits from @5&9Models to go with it, on which a start has been made. The independent railway of the 1870s scheme, utterly unlikely though it is, stays.

 

Out with new and in with the [even] old[er]!

 

4mm - Ingleford Wharf

Is now the sole preserve of the Stroudwater Navigation and Thames and Severn Railway and Associated Interests Company, whose fabled history is still awaiting further research to fully understand.

 

We know the T&S canal was struggling even before there was competition from the railways. We know the Midland looked at converting the canal route beyond Stroud to rail (to stick it to the GWR, as per). We know there was plenty of rail traffic generated along the Frome (Nailsworth) and Stroud valleys, Cirencester, and through traffic via Gloucester-Swindon. We know that small independent railways bubbled in and out of existence like subatomic particles (indeed, their fincances appear subject to Hawking Radiation) in the mid-late 1800s. Stirring it all up together and popping it the oven for 18 months creates a nice solid excuse to run some nice trains in a nice setting. Further post-rationalisation to take place as and when, for which suggestions are permanently invited.

 

The counter-factual established, it might well form the basis of my 4mm modelling from here on out so please do feel free to contribute fact or fiction. WNR it ain't, but I can feel the edges of a fold in the map... :)

 

There's plenty to do to keep me busy here for the foreseeable: completing the current kits and 'finishing' the layout, building a curved backscene module, and then developing the stock and buildings over time. The RTP buildings (on the 'old wharf') to be replaced with scratch efforts inspired by the warehousing at Parkend Wharf, Lechlade and salt store from Brimscombe Port*; kits at the back to be replaced with the warehouse and offices from Brimscombe; shed/platfrom to be rebuilt better. With the rise and rise of 3D printing, I'm sure there'll be enough interesting wagons to keep me tempted by expansion for years to come.

 

*I'm pretty sure in the world of Ingleford salt comes down from Droitwich in Company boats, to be stored for local distribution and transhipped to rail for regional distribution

 

There is also a non-negligible risk of related follow-up layouts, provisionally to the same footprint, to offer greater depth of toybox operational variety.

 

Plenty to be getting on with, then. And yet...

 

7mm - as yet un-named quayside

Welllll...it was going to happen sooner or later! The scheme is currently suspiciously close to how Ingleford started - a quick, easy, comparatively cheap and cheerful inglenook to dip a toe in the Senior Scale water (ew) and see how it suits. Hands up all those who reckon this one will get just as out of hand just as quickly...

 

Many of the major components are in place, largely due to some shameless but unapologetic chequebook-and-charity modelling, and I look forward to sharing news once a couple of things firm up and the whole lot starts coming together. There's a heap to do, but I've been energised by the developments and think I've got the basics thought out enough to be able to make reasonable progress. It won't set the world on fire, but I'm hopeful that, like Ingleford, it'll be a nice place to pop down in a spare half hour to watch the goings on. 

 

Thanks for reading, and for keeping up with developments. There should be some more to show, little and large, in the coming weeeks...

 

Cheers and gone!

 

Schooner

 

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

their fincances appear subject to Hawking Radiation

That actually made me LOL…

 

3 hours ago, Schooner said:

I'm pretty sure in the world of Ingleford salt comes down from Droitwich in Company boats, to be stored for local distribution and transhipped to rail for regional distribution

Oh, yes, definitely. There’ll be documentary evidence in an archive somewhere. You just have to fabricate find it.

 

Great to read this summary of where you are at, in both scales. Focusing the 4mm stuff to one scenario makes sense, given the addition of the 7mm project. Do you have a period for that yet?

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, Schooner said:

As before, it is largely the fault of a small Midland loco, and therefore @Compound2632. 

 

I accept no responsibility for your impulse purchases and their consequences! Neither, I think, can anyone's choosing 7 mm scale be laid at my door, unless it be that they are in revulsion at the 00 bodgery to be witnessed on my thread... 

[NHY 581]

12 hours ago, Schooner said:

Indeed! More on this shortly...

 

Uninspired to continue cleaning up the rather tired mouldings on my copy of

or to make up the batches of side chains that need done*, nor even to dig out the chinchilla powder and start making a mess again, perhaps it's time for a general update.

 

*Hilariously (YMMV, mine certainly did), the chain I thought I'd bought for the job is too fine by half. Literally. On the plus side, the job from now on will be that bit easier. On the down side, there is still the entire job to go...

 

General

There has been, as noted here, a slight change of direction with my modelling recently. Whilst thoughts of 7mm were always floating around, the move from hypothetical to very real happened slightly faster than intended. As before, it is largely the fault of a small Midland loco, and therefore @Compound2632. Whether this is worthy of praise or condemnation remains to be seen...

 

Ingleford always had quite a broad remit, but this needs rationalised now time and funds are split between two scales. Although a bit of a wrench, this has been simple. I have a Midland loco, but no stock - the Midland scheme goes. I have GWR stock, but no loco - the GW scheme goes. I have a gorgeous High Level Neilson, built by @Carnforth, which both deserves to be let out of its box and needs to do some work on the wharf to become a good value loco rather than a poor value ornament. I have a stash of kits from @5&9Models to go with it, on which a start has been made. The independent railway of the 1870s scheme, utterly unlikely though it is, stays.

 

Out with new and in with the [even] old[er]!

 

4mm - Ingleford Wharf

Is now the sole preserve of the Stroudwater Navigation and Thames and Severn Railway and Associated Interests Company, whose fabled history is still awaiting further research to fully understand.

 

We know the T&S canal was struggling even before there was competition from the railways. We know the Midland looked at converting the canal route beyond Stroud to rail (to stick it to the GWR, as per). We know there was plenty of rail traffic generated along the Frome (Nailsworth) and Stroud valleys, Cirencester, and through traffic via Gloucester-Swindon. We know that small independent railways bubbled in and out of existence like subatomic particles (indeed, their fincances appear subject to Hawking Radiation) in the mid-late 1800s. Stirring it all up together and popping it the oven for 18 months creates a nice solid excuse to run some nice trains in a nice setting. Further post-rationalisation to take place as and when, for which suggestions are permanently invited.

 

The counter-factual established, it might well form the basis of my 4mm modelling from here on out so please do feel free to contribute fact or fiction. WNR it ain't, but I can feel the edges of a fold in the map... :)

 

There's plenty to do to keep me busy here for the foreseeable: completing the current kits and 'finishing' the layout, building a curved backscene module, and then developing the stock and buildings over time. The RTP buildings (on the 'old wharf') to be replaced with scratch efforts inspired by the warehousing at Parkend Wharf, Lechlade and salt store from Brimscombe Port*; kits at the back to be replaced with the warehouse and offices from Brimscombe; shed/platfrom to be rebuilt better. With the rise and rise of 3D printing, I'm sure there'll be enough interesting wagons to keep me tempted by expansion for years to come.

 

*I'm pretty sure in the world of Ingleford salt comes down from Droitwich in Company boats, to be stored for local distribution and transhipped to rail for regional distribution

 

There is also a non-negligible risk of related follow-up layouts, provisionally to the same footprint, to offer greater depth of toybox operational variety.

 

Plenty to be getting on with, then. And yet...

 

7mm - as yet un-named quayside

Welllll...it was going to happen sooner or later! The scheme is currently suspiciously close to how Ingleford started - a quick, easy, comparatively cheap and cheerful inglenook to dip a toe in the Senior Scale water (ew) and see how it suits. Hands up all those who reckon this one will get just as out of hand just as quickly...

 

Many of the major components are in place, largely due to some shameless but unapologetic chequebook-and-charity modelling, and I look forward to sharing news once a couple of things firm up and the whole lot starts coming together. There's a heap to do, but I've been energised by the developments and think I've got the basics thought out enough to be able to make reasonable progress. It won't set the world on fire, but I'm hopeful that, like Ingleford, it'll be a nice place to pop down in a spare half hour to watch the goings on. 

 

Thanks for reading, and for keeping up with developments. There should be some more to show, little and large, in the coming weeeks...

 

Cheers and gone!

 

Schooner

 

 

 

Morning Louis. 

 

Much of interest amongst that therein. 

 

I'm with you regarding 7mm and it is only a matter of time before I too dip a toe in those most murky of waters............

 

The impending arrival of the 7mm Dapol B4 is not helpful in this respect. 

 

Rob

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, NHY 581 said:

those most murky of waters

 

Not at all! The waters are positively balmy.

 

NB That's balmy, not barmy. Although...

 

Nick.

[WFPettigrew]

14 hours ago, Schooner said:

I have GWR stock, but no loco

 

Fundamentally it is up to you what you do in terms of eras and stock.  And I agree that that gorgeous Neilson deserves an outing. 

 

But two (or more) thoughts.  Even if it IS to become solely the independent SN&T&SR&AI Co (try fitting that on the side of a wagon....!!!! Actually you're OK before @Compound2632's lot started with their allegedly oxalic paint, you would be fine with a plaque on the solebar.  Yes it would have to be half the length of the solebar to fit all those letters on but.....) then surely there would be foreign wagons appearing with incoming loads needed by these very industrialised valleys?  In part for transhipment onto the canal, but for use by the local community too.  Not that many foreigners, but once you work out how self-sufficient the Ingleford community was, you can then work out what flows there would have been needed to sustain the local populace and commerce. 

 

Plus your Neilson is not limited only to some ancient history, similar locos worked on the mines in what is now Cumbria well into the 20th century.  And a small independent concern like the SN&.. (oh lost the will to live you know what it is) would have not been throwing out its old wagons just because the wagon works had 1887 or 1907 bigger better models in their showrooms.  So again said wagons would survive into the 20th century. 

 

So... I would urge you not to sell your GW wagon fleet en bloc not just because there are some lovely models amongst them.  On a small layout like this, having the chance to rotate things around a bit would surely add some interest, and it's not like you'd be having to splash out on the wagons/horsebox, as you already have them?  For some of them, you could backdate them if the prototypes' introductions allow.  But it's your trainset, etc... 

 

Only fly in all that ointment is that the Neilson really is a shunting loco, and probably wouldn't have had the coal and water capacity to work goods trains from wherever the far end of the company-with-a-ridiculously-long-name was, so you might still need some sort of small mid-Victorian tender loco as well?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

But two (or more) thoughts.  Even if it IS to become solely the independent SN&T&SR&AI Co (try fitting that on the side of a wagon....!!!! Actually you're OK before @Compound2632's lot started with their allegedly oxalic paint, you would be fine with a plaque on the solebar.

 

Come now, look how much spare space there is here:

 

 

I really must make a roof for this one!

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Come now

 I kinda knew it was only a matter of time until that one was brought up...!

[Schooner]

On the back of last night, general thoughts, and messages above this is turning into a long and rambling post. Follow the subheadings for a loose guide to what may or may not be of interest to you.

 

Coal

On 24/03/2023 at 06:02, NHY 581 said:

 

Where is the coal being unloaded from and where will the coal trucks be stabled whilst this is occurring.......

 

Current plan is for the occasional coal wagon* to stand between the lever to the left and office to the right. In the above, I'd imagine that the RH wagon has already been unloaded (the morning job) and the wagons bumped along so the LH wagon stands ready to be unloaded on the same spot (afternoon job). 'Unloading' is opening the door and shoving the coal out and onto a pile on the ground, of course.

 

*Most coal in the area is assumed to be from South Wales and the Forest brought by barge (this being the sole purpose of trows, which unlike most commercial sail absolutely thrived during the rise of steam, even after the opening of the Severn Tunnel). Some consumers will want coal from the Midlands - again probably brought by narrowboat**, but railway wagons a possibility, or perhaps Somerset - about equally plausible by sea or rail I reckon.  I'm only just starting to look into South Gloucestershire mining, so watch this space for more, but I'm assuming this is where these little old wagons go to be loaded.

**Hence the 'coal wharf' scene front and centre. I must get round to making some proper coal stacks, those rubber placeholders (from the old Wills kits?) are starting to offend...

 

Stone

To the left of the coal wagons stands the lone Cambrian drop-side. I need to look at dates, but with its single wooden brake block it doesn't jar in construction (I don't think? Much left to learn here) but would be better repainted to look new. This wagon is bringing slate, to add to the small stone yard bounded at the back by the wharf wall and front by the rails.

 

Additionally, coal being covered by narrowboat, the on-scene trow is probably going to be loaded with roadstone from Chepstow-way. This could be being unloaded into 'proper' railway wagons for regional use, ballast wagons for railway use, or internal-use-only wagons to be bunted along to unload into the stone yard along the wharf.

 

Speaking of South Gloucestershire extractive industries, we have coal (in rather modelable form)

and we also have quarries. Perhaps most notable among these was Tytherington...

Do not. Say. A bloody. Word.

 

😇

 

Operation

The slight conflict between the coal and stone spots seen in the pic above is intentional. Although the bones of the layout are a simple inglenook, given how things have developed this has become a way to operate the layout rather than the way. Train length of c.5 wagons still suits, as time-wise it's a nice little challenge without risking tedium. The morning arrivals and evening departures will likely lean on this conceit. 

 

The midday shunt, however (the modelled moment, nominally at least) can lean on the fact that there's lots of scope to spot wagons, shunt wagons, marshal by company or type etc etc etc. This should make for a more engaging story than the 'pure' puzzle, which I find often looks/is carried out in a manner too random to convince.

 

Magnetic shunting

For engineless operation. Now, this is in the back of my mind for the 7mm layout, to access the kickback (labelled, but not exclusively for, 'Coal'):

Plan A, which I think is perfectly workable, would be to chain-shunt the kickback. But I thought it might be fun to at least think through another option (to represent hand or even horse shunting): have a thumping great magnet tucked away on relevant wagons, and another thumping great magnet (or two, with a spacer, so the poles both push and pull a wagon along) in a trench under the kickback. Made fast on an endless loop which takes a turn around a rotary handle on the layout fascia, this could be wound clockwise/anti-clockwise to move the magnets, and so wagons, right/left along the kickback as required. This handle would visually balance the same used to operate the wagon TT, which would, I think, please aesthetically and operationally.

 

I had assumed that fundamentally this wouldn't work, 7mm whitemetal wagons being too heavy and too distant, but last night I was playing around with couplings (note the variation in chain link) and this happened

repeatably and reliably. The three wagons are whitemetal kits and run well (I'm actually rather pleased with them all things considered) but far from perfectly; they are heavy and the six axles on inset track generates significant drag. And yet it was perfectly possible to draw them along the siding using a scribe magnetized using a little magnetic right-angle clamp, as many of us use. Nothing particularly special or powerful.

 

By itself this isn't much, but is an interesting data point to tuck away for future investigation.

 

Modelling

22 hours ago, Schooner said:

nor even to dig out the chinchilla powder and start making a mess

Quoth he at 9pm. By midnight, guess what...

What has that horse been drinking?!

 

Always looks disastrous, but by this morning was as expected - better where it was previously at its worst, worse where it looked fine before. A reasonable trade, and a decent platform from which to progress. One more once...

 

I think I've identified what went wrong before - instead of a PVA base, I'd mix up bottles and used one with a Modpodge Matt base. This is often recommended, particularly by spray application, but I've found that caution is required for my application method via dropper-bottle (as per the usual ballasting technique)*. The 'podge mix, when it pools, which it inevitably will, doesn't soak through and away but sits and forms a horrible solid and shiny (!) lump. Sometimes I can go over the top with another round of chinchilla dust etc (as in the gateway above), sometimes it needs dug out and redone from scratch, as I will need to do with the canal towpath.

 

*Use of spray bottles of alcohol and glue in the layout's usual home being likely to reduce my life expectancy to something around half the time it would take that glue to dry. I could try it, but probably not twice...

 

So whilst the above looks awful, it's a sign of good positive progress in line with currently understood best practice!

 

19 hours ago, magmouse said:

That actually made me LOL…

:)

 

 

7mm bits

19 hours ago, magmouse said:

Do you have a period for that yet?

1900-1910ish.

 

TPQ dictated by RTR models really (eyes on the B4 indeed, @NHY 581!) TAQ by taste, which isn't a bad place to be. The dock as modelled would make sense from about 1900; steam coasters were in the ascendancy but commercial sail still the norm in several trades; locos in such a place could be dock-owned ex-contractor locos of the 1860s or '70s through to brand new purpose-designed of modern bearing like the GWR 1361, or indeed Midland 1528, which could serve until Nationalisation and beyond; rolling stock could be almost anything from ancient 12' ballast wagons to shiny new 44' bullion vans and nobody could raise more than an eyebrow in question.

 

So...yes.

 

But also no.

 

But kinda yeah.

 

Apart from...no.

 

:)

 

Impulse control

Nothing to see here. Nothing to say here.

 

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

...they are in revulsion at the 00 bodgery to be witnessed on my thread...

Quite the reverse! I've concluded I shall only be able to challenge in the Annual All Commers Neat'n'Tidy Chain Link Competition by shifting up a scale! Down a scale! Up a gauge!...to 7mm!

 

More to the point, in following your many interesting and informative posts and threads I've learned not only about the railways more widely, but about a company barely on my radar ('Midland? They're the ones that ran into the wrong station at the arse-end of Bath aren't they? Big on coal? Them?') a couple of years ago. Having learned a little, the appeal has increased a lot. Thank you for all :)

 

SN&T&SR&AIC...

...is, as @WFPettigrew has noted, a bit of a mouthful.

 

7 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

try fitting that on the side of a wagon....!!!!

No need! See below...

 

...Livery. Advice please.

Goods stock to carry 'illiterate mark' of the Company horseshoe motif (legs up down akimbo still dunno), 'T&S' carved into solebar where applicable. Labelled with running number only, in white, located on side sheeting as convenient. Wooden solebars in main body colour. Running gear and metal solebars in black or red oxide as appropriate. Build plates as per manufacturer, repair dates painted adjacent in white.

 

Numbered in series as indicated*, a totally un-rationalised all-singing all-dancing all-wagon-works-foreman-breakdown-inducing version might be something like

 

1## Ballast, stone etc Opens: Oxford blue, bare innards. 

2## Mineral Opens: Black all over, bare innards. 

3## General Merchandise Opens: Admiralty Grey**, bare innards, black ironwork.

4## Trolleys and implement wagons: Red oxide, black ironwork. 

5## Special Covered Wagons (salt/clays etc): Yellow, black ironwork. 

6## General Merchandise Vans: Admiralty Grey, black ironwork. 

7## Livestock Wagons: Red, black ironwork. Limewashed innards.

8## Ventilated Vans: Green, black ironwork.

9## Road Vans: Dark brown, black ironwork. Varnished.

 

Brake Vans: Unnumbered. Named for the assigned guard only. Admiralty Grey, black ironwork, red ends.

 

PW and internal wagons: Unnumbered. To be named by Works Foremen and Drivers in order of seniority, and by Friends of the Company as deemed appropriate by the Board thereof. Red, black ironwork, named in white.

 

*Eg the first mineral wagon is 21, the 10th is 210, the 100th is 2100. Good luck clerks, and take that accountants!

**Which a quick Google has failed to identify as what I had in mind. An anachronistic blue-grey. IIRC the RN used solely black/white mixes until the mid-30s but it's a colour I associate with things built or operating near dockyards, coated with 'liberated' stocks, and with the period.***

***There are some reports of a small number of varnished general merchandise wagons in use, but no conclusive evidence has yet emerged.

 

Over time this surely would become all-over grey with black ironwork and running gear, and then all-over grey. But for now could we still get away with our goods stock in motley?

 

Route History

Seeing as this is getting reasonably serious, some work will need to be done on the route and reach of the company; its history, current disposition, and likely future. For now, to get the discussion started but shooting very much from the hip:

 

1850s: Company formed, canal drained, rails run Stroud to Cirencester via Sapperton Tunnel and opened as work continues on the extension North to Gloucester and South to Swindon. A small exchange yard and juncton station at Stonehouse serve the Nailsworth Branch - a condition of the original proposal. The canal was not able to establish a viable route between the docks of Bristol and Gloucester to those of London. Perhaps the railway can...

1860s: Line now open Gloucester-Swindon; works being carried out at Cirencester to make it the main hub of the railway, inc. a juntion allowing through traffic to the new branch North to Cheltenham.

1870s: (Modelled period) No change, but the line remains profitable and funding is secured for a push South from Swindon to Salisbury via Tidworth, with ongoing negotiations with the LSWR for reciprocal running rights through to Southampton.

 

 

This 'Y'-shaped main route, terminating in Gloucester (for Wales and the docks), Cheltenham (for the MR and the North) and Salisbury (for the LSWR and the South) and hubs at Cirencester (company headquaters) and Swindon (for GWR, London and the West) , was completed in the 1880s and became the Company's settled form. Indeed the Y became something of an unofficial symbol, seen in chalk markings denoting traffic for the system, graffiti in Company boxes etc. A proposed extension to Worcester was never, to the best of current understanding, undertaken. 

 

 

So, the farsighted managers of some local mills and a failing canal managed to steal a march on two of the major players in the area (the GWR and MR) and found themselves in a favourable position when facing the opportunities exploited by the M&SWJR in our universe. Managing to be seen as something of a force multiplier, they remain on cordial terms with their neighbours. None are direct rivals, that ship having sailed once the line was established and the GWR and MR had to drop their plans to serve the area, and so now all stand to gain by co-operation.

 

It's all b*llocks, of course, and I don't know enough to make a decent fist of the fiction...but I think the framework isn't totally unreasonable for such a scheme. Ingleford is an important spot on the original network, the main transhipment hub on which the Company placed all its bets in the early days, but after a decade or so is probably starting to wane in comparision to the connections at Gloucester, Swindon and Salisbury. How to tell this story? I don't yet know :)

 

Stock

7 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Not that many foreigners, but once you work out how self-sufficient the Ingleford community was, you can then work out what flows there would have been needed to sustain the local populace and commerce. 

Agreed. Lots more still to be done on the route and reach of The Company, but foreigners are a certainty and would, as you say, make for welcome variety.

 

Provisionally we have a round-end 3-plank* or two (David Green) and some 1- and 2- plank wagons from @drduncan (please!) for the GWR; a (pre-diagram) 5-plank and a couple of 3-planks from Mousa Models @billbedford for the MR (also please!). I think we're too early to worry about any LSWR traffic as things stand.

 

*These look excitingly modern - long, low and sleek - in comparison to the early stock from @5&9Models!

 

7 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Plus your Neilson is not limited only to some ancient history...[The Company] would have not been throwing out its old wagons

 

No indeed, on both counts. The Neilson is seen as being new, bought to serve the wharf spur and related sidings. There will be other locos in the mix, for sure! Likewise the old wagons. They're seen as part of the original stock (and I'm so glad I went for them, I'm really enjoying putting them together and seeing them on the layout, so there will likely be more in the future), and still an important part of the railway's operation, if now more commonly found in local and internal use.

 

7 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

I would urge you not to sell your GW wagon fleet en bloc not just because there are some lovely models amongst them

Thank you. Appreciated and noted. Some of my faves - like the N6 horsebox - are to go because they're unsuitable no matter what, but there will definitely be some keepers, as above :)

 

7 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Only fly in all that ointment is that the Neilson really is a shunting loco, and probably wouldn't have had the coal and water capacity to work goods trains from wherever the far end of the company-with-a-ridiculously-long-name was, so you might still need some sort of small mid-Victorian tender loco as well?

Oh be still, my beating heart. Yes, please!

 

Hell fire, is that the time?! Better wrap up...

 

Thanks all for the interest, thoughtful and thought-provoking comments, and general positive noises. More of that is most welcome :) I'm embarrassed to say that there's still more to note down, about 4mm, 7mm and other possible future paths, but I'm sure we can all agree that'll do for now. 

 

Happy Easter, all the best :)

Edited April 7, 2023 by Schooner
Sp. first pass

[JustinDean]

I love these long posts!

 

Jay

[drduncan]

16 minutes ago, Schooner said:

some 1- and 2- plank wagons from @drduncan (please!) 

Please?…. (Make those damned mods you promised) or…..something else?

D

 

[Schooner]

🤣 Please continue to use your free time, in-depth subject knowledge, CAD skills and printing facilities to improve the scope of our hobby!

 

...by selling me Victorian GWR goods stock goodness :)

[drduncan]

6 minutes ago, Schooner said:

🤣 Please continue to use your free time, in-depth subject knowledge, CAD skills and printing facilities to improve the scope of our hobby!

 

...by selling me Victorian GWR goods stock goodness :)

I must admit that with your double defection (7mm and MR) I thought you were off the market. I’ve a nice N6 loco coal wagon print (without the later side extensions) coming on and a host of 1 plank variations - just got to sort out the single shoe brake gear….and sift wheat from the chaff in the GW wagon stock books because I know how much you like your accurate wagon histories. 😀

Edited April 7, 2023 by drduncan

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

Some of my faves - like the N6 horsebox - are to go because they're unsuitable no matter what,

 

Really?

 

It's an old cliche but the one railway vehicle which could find itself anywhere was surely the horsebox?  Yes it probably should be on a passenger train, not despatched to a possibly declining wharf, but if the local mill was investing in a stud visit to liven things up at the stables, or the local squire who lived verynearby was having a visit from his more affluent and aristocratic distant cousin, then surely you could argue a horsebox?

 

 

[Schooner]

4 hours ago, drduncan said:

...you were off the market.

Never, I'm a very moveable feast! 

 

You're right in that initially I thought I was scaling back entirely and cutting all further 4mm expenditure...

 

...but as if I'd be able, or even want, to stick to that anyway!

 

I think the current plan has scope for modest expansion into the world of mid-Victorian GWR, of which I'm fond :) So the 'please' was just an acknowledgement that wagon production is not Dr D's primary business and I have no right to make demands on your time...but...standby for future PMs 😇

 

For Bill it is his primary business, but it seems my account at Mousa is still banned from making purchases so I'm making sure to mind my Ps and Qs...

 

3 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Really?

 

 

Really really...given it wasn't even drafted until 15 years after the period Ingleford is settling into! I like it a lot, but it tends to the Churchward whilst I want roll towards Armstrong :)

 

I haven't thought too much about livestock traffic beyond ensuring ample provision for the 'spare' barge horse to get back to Bristol or Gloucester by rail. This topic will need future development, but already there is very much scope for a gratuitous posh 'box or two for the squire and his kin! Suggestions for suitable vehicles invited :)

Edited April 7, 2023 by Schooner
Gif hunting

[drduncan]

Mid Victorian tender locos….that got me thinking:

GWR Standard/Armstrong goods (Nucast partners) (clearly goes without saying a superior class of loco) or (holding one’s nose….) a MR Kirtley goods (also Nucast partners)

 

Both have lots of lovely outside cranks that will whirl around as they waddle along a siding. I’m also given to understand that there was a time, lost in pregrouping mists of rumour and confusion (damn all authors who do not reference their sources properly and publishers who think readers don’t like footnotes), when the MR were not beyond the pale as they had green locos….

 

D

Edited April 8, 2023 by drduncan

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, drduncan said:

Mid Victorian tender locos….that got me thinking:

GWR Standard/Armstrong goods (Nucast partners) (clearly goes without saying a superior class of loco) or (holding one’s nose….) a MR Kirtley goods (also Nucast partners)

 

Those kits represent those locomotives in Edwardian condition. Very considerable modification will be required to get them into mid-Victorian (1870s) condition - new boilers all round for starters.

 

41 minutes ago, drduncan said:

I’m also given to understand that there was a time, lost in pregrouping mists of rumour and confusion (damn all authors who do not reference their sources properly and publishers who think readers don’t like footnotes), when the MR were not beyond the pale as they had green locos….

 

In Kirtley's time, the universal locomotive dark green. In johnson's time, a light green from c. 1875 and red from 1883.

[drduncan]

Ah boilers, just a bit of tube…won’t be difficult etc etc…(tries to ignore the carcass of and reproachful looks from of what is supposed to be an original condition Dean Goods in the farthest recess of the workbench.)

 

I should also make clear that as Stephen @Compound2632 is effectively my sole source of MR knowledge (how I treasure my ignorance but he keeps making very good models and interesting posts, damn him), I do not include him in my tirade against poor scholarship in the railway researchers club. But as Adam has pointed out elsewhere  (on the Castle Aching thread, I think) it is a problem that as a community we need to get on top of for the sanity of our successors - and as a historian (but not of railways - got to keep personal and professional separate) it is something that vexes me…a lot.

 

Duncan