Ingleford Wharf: 1870s canalside inglenook on the "M&WJR" in 00, and Victoria Quay: a 1900s WIP in 0

[Curlew]

Might coal have been shipped over the Bristol Channel from South Wales and loaded into local wagons?

[drduncan]

Hmm, the logistics of moving coal for bunking. Not really my area but from what I recall there were three basic models (and probably lots of variations).

1. Buy from a factor/chandler at a port, who in larger ports might have special facilities - a coaling wharf - and who would have large stocks delivered in bulk, probably by sea but possibly by rail. Probably the most likely course of action. Probably the only open for small single vessel lines and the method of choice for larger ships as it would be the easiest option for physically getting coal onboard. (Coaling was filthy after all.)

2. The shipping line has its own arrangements with a coal factor to deliver to a jetty.  I can’t believe this would have been popular given the wagon loads that would have been required for even small coasters and the congestion this could cause in the wharf (and remember coaling ship was a filthy and potentially long process) . Possible for very small coasters (eg Clyde puffers etc) and steam trawlers etc as bunkers were smaller. But in 1900 the coasting trade in the smallest of ports was still heavily sail dependent (as an aside many coasting schooners etc were converted to motor sailers rather than steam).

3. The shipping line owns/hires wagons and forwards them as required direct from colliery to port eg Grimsby Steam Trawler Co. Probably quite rare.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Duncan

[Schooner]

On 23/05/2023 at 11:23, KNP said:

But I would like to build a steam tug like Challange.

Not quite so mighty as Challenge, but

could you get any more Little Muddle?! It might not be her, but a tug very much after Mayflower (1861)

 

On 23/05/2023 at 11:31, Ponthir28 said:

But I cannot find a kit.

https://www.billingboats.com/index.php/modelboats-footer/104/120/boats/advanced-beginner/P-bb904-henriette-marie

https://artesanialatina.net/en/ships-initiation/469-jolie-brise-wooden-model-ship-kit-8421426221800.html

https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product-category/model-boat-builder/boat-kits-sets/plan-hulls-sets/david-alderton-plan-hulls-sets/?

https://vanguardmodels.co.uk/product-category/vanguard-model-kits/

 

None are perfect, but perhaps might spark an idea or lead you to an answer.

 

On 23/05/2023 at 11:53, Curlew said:

Might coal have been shipped over the Bristol Channel from South Wales and loaded into local wagons?

Into...M&WJR wagons, even? The thought had crossed my mind! After the opening of the Severn Tunnel, I'm under the impression that such transhipping was only done for regional traffic though, with anything for the national market, as it were, going by rail or by sea all the way. I read recently how competition from the railway put paid to a certain shipping company's fleet of colliers - built specifically for the South Wales-Southampton bunker coal trade - by 1918.

 

Thanks for that @drduncan, makes sense and ties into what I learned when looking into the surprisingly complex coal market of Kingswear* (still a significant bunkering station 100 years ago).

 

*Coal in, coal out, by sea, by rail. All tastes catered for, accept no imitations.

 

TL:DR. Geography made Dartmouth a good spot to top off coal stocks when outbound from the Southampton/top up if inbound (more rarely, IIRC), so supply sprang up to meet the demand. Colliers came from both Wales and the North East to unload into mid-river barges, which acted as coal store and bunkering berths. When the railway turned up not much changed, but after Severn Tunnel and the gasworks at Hollicombe opened - creating new supply and new demand - then there were flows of different grades of coal from different sources in different directions by different means.

 

Not doing of a very good job of making myself understood recently, apologies. The question perhaps should have read:

 

Did the LSWR make great use of their own mineral wagons, like the Midland, or of PO wagons like the GWR? If the latter, would they originate from the South Wales fields?

 

I don't think the Somerset coal fields were up to much for steam coal, but have it on the list to look into. Any other likely sources on LSWR turf? FWIW a very average steam coaster of the type modelled could carry about 30 wagons-worth of coal as cargo and had space for 3-4 wagons-worth of coal as bunkers.

 

On 23/05/2023 at 18:45, drduncan said:

But in 1900 the coasting trade in the smallest of ports was still heavily sail dependent (as an aside many coasting schooners etc were converted to motor sailers rather than steam).

I think it's fair to say that in 1900 the coasting trade in most ports and a huge number of coastal communities were still heavily sail dependent! Unless you were regularly engaged in a single very profitable (gunpowder), bulky (coal and stone) or time-sensitive (perishables, island supply/admin) trade, it simply wasn't worth ordering a steam coaster. That's why we see most early vessels connected directly with quarries and collieries; filling in on the French fruit and veg trade in the summer and switching back to minerals once the harvest is done and the weather turns. Well past the turn of the century the masts and sails on these steam coasters were not vestigial but habitually used whenever possible to improve fuel efficiency, ease the motion*, ride out heavy weather and even help manoeuvre in tight harbours. No sudden overnight paradigm shift, but a gradual adoption of new practices and abandonment of the old.

 

*Of primarily financial importance, although also relevant for crew comfort and safety. For example, some slate quarries (and factors) specified that maritime transport must be made under sail as the more sympathetic movement was believed to reduce the risk of damage to the cargo in transit.

 

Otherwise in the 1900s sailing coasters were cheaper to run and much more versatile, better able to eke a return out of the marginal opportunities of the trade. Particularly true in areas bounded by the Celtic and Irish Seas, where they were more often Master and/or community-owned and insured, but these sailing "coasters" were capable of trading anywhere from New Brunswick to Beirut and all points between. The same can't be said of East Coast barges, but they weren't displaced by the steam coaster, or even the railway, but the lorry. See also the continued success of engineless sailing trawlers in the South West (built in Brixham until 1926) into the 1930s, long after sail had given way to steam in other major trawling stations like Lowestoft and Grimsby: decent coal was too expensive to make steam trawlers viable. It wasn't 'till the First War that the balance really shifted, and not till the Second that commercial sail was truly done. The last West Country (auxiliary, granted) ketches traded into '50s; the last engineless Thames sailing barge called it a day in 1970 (in trade, that is - Cambria is still going strong!).

 

You can't put a steam engine in any but the very largest sailing hulls - they're the wrong shape*. They need to be narrow, deep and flat at the back; the exact opposite of what you need to house an engine. You can put the engines in the middle...but then where do you put the cargo? IC motors were difficult to accommodate, but steam was simply not possible.

 

*Sailing works like squeezing a bar of soap between your hands: wind acts laterally in one direction; water resistance in the other. The shape of the hull converts this into forward motion. Like soap, and...other...options corners bad; curves good.

 

Erm...oops. Trains?!

 

[BWsTrains]

Coal was definitely shipped across the Bristol Channel from S Wales for loading onto WC&PR wagons at Wick Jetty from 1913.

 

More info here

 

https://www.wcpr.org.uk/Wharf.html

 

 

[drmditch]

Fremington Quay.

(Sorry, couldn't find the pictures I remember of coal transhipment.)

[Northroader]

Just on the matter of sending stuff by sea, I was looking up a suitable vessel to put forward for your docks, and one thing led to another, and I was looking at a list of shipwrecks for one month of one year. To me it’s unbelievable:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shipwrecks_in_January_1878

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

a list of shipwrecks for one month of one year.

 

A good proportion of those are groundings with subsequent re-floatings and continuation of voyage, so not really proper shipwrecks, to my mind. Generally, the definition of shipwreck encompasses loss of the vessel by sinking or breaking-up. But I agree, it's a chapter of calamities.

 

For comparison, Railways Archive [https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventlisting.php] lists 13 railway accidents in the same month, January 1878, that were the subject or HMRI reports to the Board of Trade - i.e. involved either or both loss of life and a passenger train. 

[Northroader]

Wonder how anyone survived to breed this generation. It’s sad how a schooner leaves Liverpool going to Portmadoc, presumably for a load of slates, and just disappears with the crew, and the number of times this happens, ships set off, then vanish. Least ways with a railway accident all the locals can turn up for a gawp.

[Schooner]

4 hours ago, drmditch said:

Sorry, couldn't find the pictures I remember of coal transhipment.

Not at all, thanks for the pointer - looks a goody!

Were the photos you had in mind like those here: http://www.devon-holiday.com/information/fremington.htm ? And is that a...a...puffer?!

Bloody Snowflakes...!

 

 

Yup, totally sold @drmditch, thank you!

 

Whilst I've no intention to fix the layout's location (there's not enough scenic room anyway), it's important for me to have some idea where it is in each guise (eg. LSWR) as it helps answer questions and light the path ahead. I know North Devon, but have only rarely spent much time there and am more familiar with vessels registered there than the place itself. I can't hold it in my mind as I can South Devon. At the prompt, and knowing what I do of the 7mm project now it's settled down - what it gives and what I want from it - I've just spent some really useful time looking at the area between Bideford and Barnstaple.

 

Yes, please. That.

 

Gives all that I want, everything that I need*, up to and including an excuse to run what might be the cutest passenger service ever based on

https://www.steamandthings.com/page14.htm

https://www.steamandthings.com/page50.htm (slight risk of this turning up in 4mm too...)

https://www.steamandthings.com/page7.htm

https://www.steamandthings.com/page54.htm

 

*I was going to link to that song, but couldn't face it. You're welcome :)

 

 

Choo choo!

[Schooner]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

and continuation of voyage

Is this specified? I think it's a risky assumption. After grounding serious enough to require towage/recording, the risk of terminal damage is to the rig and keel is high; the chance of subsequent successful sale low.

 

By way of small example I was reading about recently, this is the Dmitry of Narva

aground at Whitby, Sunday October 25th 1885.

 

I'm sure bells are ringing already for some, given some recentish work I should've known about it earlier, but there we go. Anyway, the point is that on a day several vessels were lost along the nearby coast, the master of Dmitry deployed a smart bit of seamanship* and brought her out from under the land and through the harbour entrance...but then (to an undoubted chorus of teeth-sucking and "I wouldn't have done it like that"s) let way come off her a bit soon and parked Dmitry on the beach.

 

So far so good, everyone safe, vessel sound. Let her dry, refloat on the next tide, no dramas.

 

What actually happened was that as she took the ground she was badly battered, the sticks fell over and the stucture was compromised. Vessel written off as a wreck and broken up there and then. Loss of the Dmitry of Narva not present in the monthly lists.

 

*According to the pilot and lifeboatmen who watched, part of a claimed audience of thousands. I can't imagine they were easily impressed.

 

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

It’s sad...

...couldn't agree more, it's staggering. Few things trigger me as reliably as how far there still is to go in securing reasonable working environments for seafarers and (particularly) reasonable accountability for their employers. "That's not fish ye're buying...", "There’s no place to put your flowers on the foam..." etc. Things have got massively better than they were, of course, but...

 

Recommended reading:

Much lighter and more lively than the title suggests, it doesn't shy away from some of the more troubling reasons men (in particular) go to sea, and sometimes never come back. Covering three generations in Marstal, it's perhaps the most sympathetic portrait of these poorly-remembered maritime communities I can think of.

 

Sorrysorry! Trains...

...mostly... :)

[Worsdell forever]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

By way of small example I was reading about recently, this is the Dmitry of Narva

aground at Whitby, Sunday October 25th 1885.

 

I'm sure bells are ringing already for some, given some recentish work I should've known about it earlier, but there we go. Anyway, the point is that on a day several vessels were lost along the nearby coast, the master of Dmitry deployed a smart bit of seamanship* and brought her out from under the land and through the harbour entrance...but then (to an undoubted chorus of teeth-sucking and "I wouldn't have done it like that"s) let way come off her a bit soon and parked Dmitry on the beach.

 

So far so good, everyone safe, vessel sound. Let her dry, refloat on the next tide, no dramas.

 

What actually happened was that as she took the ground she was badly battered, the sticks fell over and the stucture was compromised. Vessel written off as a wreck and broken up there and then. Loss of the Dmitry of Narva not present in the monthly lists.

 

*According to the pilot and lifeboatmen who watched, part of a claimed audience of thousands. I can't imagine they were easily impressed.

 

 

It was always going to make the shore, as your link points out, there were other more mysterious forces at work that day...

[Schooner]

On 25/05/2023 at 03:45, BWsTrains said:

WC&PR wagons at Wick Jetty

Useful, thank you!

Like many suggestions, not directly copyable but it sparked a thought which has lead to a possible improvement for the layout.

 

Opinions, please :)

 

[Schooner]

4mm - Ingleford

 

Modelling has been a bit thin on the ground recently. Since getting the resin poured I've been wondering which way to turn: call it good enough, start the touch-ups and work towards it being 'finished', or write up a proper jobs list of things which annoy me in order of size/disruption and make a start from the top...

 

Option 1 was the bookies' favourite; Option 2 was decided upon yesterday, agreed upon and set into motion today, and will be begun in earnest tomorrow.

 

The running line is getting ripped up and replaced, the relevant edge of the baseboard is getting rebuilt, and the the cassette connection re-worked.

The improvements sought are

• a smoother, more reliable, run on/off stage, fixing an issue caused whilst learning how to emboss the setts. (Pro-tip, don't try to emboss over the edge of sleepers laid on foam. All that happens is that when you push down the sleepers pull of the rail, and can't always be replaced).  No leaning!
• a reliable cassette connection, using flexi-track to the baseboard edge, a Code 75-100 transition track on a new mini-extension wooden block, with PECO powered fishplates connecting it to the Code 100 cassettes which will sit on the folding bracket. Whole ensemble to be through-bolted and actually level this time...
• a little more scenic variety, with the 4' of the running line to be exposed (ballasted to sleeper-top) with wooden infills where wagon/heavy foot traffic is likely. I hope this will create a better sense of coherence and flow whilst making the New Wharf a little gentler and more interesting to look at.

I won't be going the whole hog and replacing the three turnouts cos a) they're too expensive and b) they're fine. However only the Neilson could hang on to the running line, and as tender-loco plans progress that's not good enough.

 

It must be summer time, they've deployed the drop-top...

 

On which, a new reference for BP 2-4-0s, giving a decent look at the backhead:

Brymbo Iron Company '0-4-0' tank locomotive 'Robertson', Order No 254, 1858, Left hand side elevation, works in the background, (This order was built for stock and the engines sold separately to Brymbo Iron Company and Broughton Coal Company). (Photo by Museum of Science & Industry/SSPL/Getty Images), circa 1855. (Photo by Museum of Science & Industry/SSPL/Getty Images)

 

Looks like the 2-4-0's been finished to 00 standards - check out the width of those splashers!

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Schooner
Sp. first pass

[Schooner]

I might be fixing mistakes with poor track, but pride dictates all stock be cleared senza la Mano di Dio.

Hilariously, the Peckett really does go better with the roof down. Who knew!

 

As readers have probably guessed, the Tee-Pee (Test Peckett) underwent minor surgery so I could learn how easy it was to dismember. I like them best with open-back cabs; half-cab just looks a bit odd, and whilst no-cab hold promise, it would take a lot of work elsewhere to make convincing even with weatherboard. Unlikely in the foreseeable.

 

Job satisfaction - high!

 

Took the opportunity to fair up the ends of the other sidings using the track:

Which doesn't add much, but more than nothing! The cheeky change of angle also helps a) see when wagons reach that point, a useful marker and b) helps to stop them rolling down hill back towards the turnouts :) I'll rebuild up to the edge in DAS to fair it all up. Platform might get extended or rebuilt, as yet uncertain.

 

It's all looking a bit ugly, but I'm confident these are the first steps of the last push, as it were.

 

Tomorrow should arrive the new track bits and...erm...a lot of bits to re-wire the layout more neatly, now I know where everything goes. Seemed like a good idea at the time...

 

Having done all that, I felt Ingleford deserved a treat.

 

Order placed for the artwork for passenger stock

 

I now need to find etchers to send the photo-tools to. Recommendations would be gratefully received here or by PM, thank you :)

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Schooner
Sp

[magmouse]

That first picture really shows where you are heading - ignoring all the things that are WIP or 'off stage', the atmosphere comes across loud and clear. The window/'sky' light reflecting off the canal water in the top right corner of the photo is a treat. And an intriguing glimpse of Châteaux Schooner...

 

Nick.

[lezz01]

Speak to Dave Basford (k22009) he has a very good etcher he uses.

Regards Lez.

[magmouse]

A project I am involved in on Western Thunder is using PPD, which I have seen others recommend as well:

 

http://ppdltd.com

 

Nick.

[Asterix2012]

What are the origins of the two coaches?

[MrWolf]

The four wheeler is an ex LSWR Royal saloon that ended up on the Shropshire and Montgomery Railway which was used by them and subsequently the War Department until it fell apart.

 

https://colonelstephenssociety.co.uk/rollingstock topics/royal saloon.html

 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by MrWolf

[Schooner]

8 hours ago, Asterix2012 said:

What are the origins of the two coaches?

 

4-wheel coupé 

Prototype: Wot Wolfie Sed

 

How it started

 

How it's went

 

Relevant dates along the way include build (early 1843, probably), coversion to 6-wheel chassis of 6'4"+6'4" (1846<1855 ), new 4-wheel chassis "on entering public service" in 1876 (I struggle to believe this doesn't actually mean 'on leaving Royal service'). After which it goes walkabout, only to turn up in Col. Stephens' sights whilst he was engaged to convert the East Cornwall Minerals Railway from 3'6" to standard gauge and knock out an extension to the main line at Bere Alston, in 1905.

 

Model:

https://www.steamandthings.com/page20c.htm

Body only; not longer in production but photo-tool available for local etching.

 

A stretch of my modelling chops - the build and the painting will be excitingly beyond my comfort zone!

 

M&WJR:

Good question! I suspect a quiet word might have been had in the right ear when it was withdrawn from Royal service in 1876, as thereafter it was reportedly sighted in Gloucestershire, presumed for use as the Director's "Inspection" Saloon.

 

30 years old and archaic, I can't see it being put into regular use even on the M&WJR by the time the Ingleford scene is set...but I can see the Directors' vanity getting involved if such a vehicle was known to be available...

 

8-wheel clerestory (makes me smile just to type that!)

 

Prototype:

Built 1885 by the Metroploitan Carriage and Wagon Company for the Suakin-Berber Railway in The Sudan. This line closed before completion, and the related scandal saw Parliament demand the repatriation of all stock. Although I assume they're of the same house, I don't believe the coach is the same as that preserved at Chatham

 

Model:

https://www.steamandthings.com/page50.htm

 

M&WJR:

No oven-ready excuse for this either, but it's the smallest, cutest, most Ingleford little coach I think I've come across in 4mm. Is it a regular passenger vehicle serving the wharf? Is Ingleford station itself on a short spur, and it is simplest to clear the coach down to the wharf during the midday passenger traffic slump? Is it a Sunday Special to get the bargees up to church in Stroud?! More detective work on the route of the M&WJR just West of Stroud as it dived down into the old canal bed is in order...

 

Layout:

In short, it's Rule 1. I want a bit of passenger stock, I like these, these shall be my passenger stock! I like the world-build aspect of being able to run little mixed trains (it makes use of the extra cassette and siding length I have available without pushing the size of the Inglenook Puzzle beyond the bounds of fun). and the fact I can use them 'stored' at Ingleford Wharf to artificially reduce siding length, enforcing 'real' Inglenook Puzzle rules/generally increasing challenge etc. As mntioned above, both carriages will force me to up my modelling game, and the challenge won't do me any harm.

 

In other news:

Before.

After.

...well, during. Had a Bright Idea to improve ease of controller placement/removal/rotation with DCC system, so there's a little bit more to do tomo than planned, but I think we can call this an improvement.

 

Thanks for the etching recommendations, will follow up ASAP. Broader update in the next day or two...

[lezz01]

So whilst I really like the two coaches I feel I have to ask what is the minimum radius of the layout?

That 8 wheeler is going to be a total pig to get to go through anything under 36", they ain't bogies on that beastie so you'll need a lot of side play on the inner two axles is all I'm saying.

Regards Lez. 

[Schooner]

Goods points as ever, Lez!

 

Minimum radius on the layout was designed at >36" on the entry/exit road...but I suspect ended up a shade tighter. This is one of the factors which lead to the decision to not just re-lay but replace this bit of track.

 

As to what the model can cope with, from the designer:

"We carried out some test building on the 7mm kit to tie down the specification of the undercarriage. The coach is a fixed 8-wheeler, and it did not behave on our test track of minimum radius 2'4" (700mm) though it felt more comfortable at 3' (900mm). We will have to offer a "cheat" option of "hidden bogies" and you will have to decide yourself how to build, depending upon the radii of the curves on your layout"

 

Reassuring. It is very short after all!

 

For reference, the 7mm layout is planned to have a minimum radius of c.6'... :)

[Schooner]

4mm - Ingleford

 

Plugs and sockets arrived and were fitted, tested, and approved. Woop! Wiring went better than expected - I thought I'd made a mistake somewhere and couldn't track the fault down, but the wiring was right and I'd just pulled one of the soldered joints on one of the S-lever control boards too tightly, breaking the connection and causing the whole thing to freak out. Was rather glad when a gentle prod was all that was required to re-align chis and chakras.

 

Layout is back the right way up and TiPi has had a good scuffle about and found all power feeds, frogs and switches up to snuff. To my surprise, there's power on those two cheeky little siding extensions and it's possible to run locos right off the edge...!

 

Tomorrow should be the track (inc transition track for the Code 100 cassettes) which is, drum roll, The Last Job! The rest is just all the stuff that's never finished... :)

 

7mm - Vicky Quay

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304725044473?hash=item46f3072cf9:g:g18AAOSw9jJjilGG

Uh oh... :)

 

http://www.copsewood.org/ng_rly/sailbogie/sailbogie.htm

 

Not so uncommon, looks like a pretty staunch standing lug rig is the way to go. More easily changed on a model than than driver diameter or gauge!

 

 

[Annie]

5 hours ago, Schooner said:

7mm - Vicky Quay

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304725044473?hash=item46f3072cf9:g:g18AAOSw9jJjilGG

Uh oh... :)

Did you see the price of that thing?  I could make dozens of them out of all the old tatt I've got and I'd be rich, - rich I tell you!

[magmouse]

7 hours ago, Schooner said:

looks like a pretty staunch standing lug rig is the way to go

Yes, and a much larger sail than is depicted on the model - assuming you want to go fast, or be able to sail uphill (not a phrase I ever thought I would be using).

 

Nick.