A look at the Hawksworths

[dibber25]

VERY few - if any - passenger Hawksworths would have lasted into the 1970s. Just one or two lasted long enough to get blue and grey. The BGs (in all-over blue) survived a lot longer than the rest. By the mid-1960s Hawksworths weren't common on front-line work - nearly all of which was Mk1s. I recall two (in maroon) forming the 13.25 (SO) Oxford-Moreton-in-Marsh all stations stopper in 1965 with 6868 Penrhos Grange. They turned up on secondary services all over the place - look for pictures of the Gloucester-Ross-Hereford trains for instance, and behind Class 22s on branch services to Helston, Newquay etc before the DMUs took over. I recall seeing a photo of the Milton derailment in the 1950s, where there were a number of Hawksworths in the excursion train and the complete side of one vehicle had separated from the rest of the body.

CHRIS LEIGH

[craigwelsh]

Which types are these? I don't know much about the longevity of the Hawksworths but understand some survived into the 1980s. Presumably some types lasted longer than others? What could I run in a mixed rake with Mk1s by the late 60s/early 70s and after? Or were they kept together in rakes for summer holiday traffic? I've seen photos but it's not clear what was commonplace and what was the exception. Can anyone help, please? They look so good I will need to run a few at least.

These coaches had British Standard gangways and would have needed a gangway converter to work with mk1s, by the late 60s I can't imagine many occasions when the operations department would want to go to the hassle unless they had to.

 

Material shortages shortened the amount of these built as well as the emergence of the mk1.

 

Pictures of the BG's in blue on Paul Bartlett's site http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c812565.html

 

I wonder who will be the first to convert a slip coach?

[Taz]

I have had a quick whizz through some of my books and have to agree, there aren't that many pictures of them. Most seem to be of single coaches intermingled with Collet stock on secondary or relief duties.

I have found a couple which seem to show Hawkswoth stock and Mk1s together in the same consist.

 

These coaches had British Standard gangways and would have needed a gangway converter to work with mk1s, by the late 60s I can't imagine many occasions when the operations department would want to go to the hassle unless they had to.

 

Could you elaborate about the gangways please Craig? I hadn't realised that different gangways were incompatible with each other.

For example, as said above, I have seen plenty of evidence of Hawksworth and Collet stock together but also of Collet and MK1s together. So I'm guessing an adapter would have to be used in at least one of these situations. Would it be obvious from a modelling point of view?

 

Cheers

[craigwelsh]

I have had a quick whizz through some of my books and have to agree, there aren't that many pictures of them. Most seem to be of single coaches intermingled with Collet stock on secondary or relief duties.

I have found a couple which seem to show Hawkswoth stock and Mk1s together in the same consist.

 

Could you elaborate about the gangways please Craig? I hadn't realised that different gangways were incompatible with each other.

For example, as said above, I have seen plenty of evidence of Hawksworth and Collet stock together but also of Collet and MK1s together. So I'm guessing an adapter would have to be used in at least one of these situations. Would it be obvious from a modelling point of view?

Cheers

Indeed they could be coupled together with an adapter so they wouldn't be incompatible, my suggestion was just that by the late 60s it would be unusual to go to the effort as you'd have been more likely to find more spare mk1 stock. I don't think you'd need an adaptor if you locked the corridor out of use. With the buffers extended though the mk1 connector would be too far away hence the adaptor. I haven't actually seen any close up pictures to confirm what would need modelling.

 

There is a picture of the sort of 2-coach branch train featuring a Hawksworth http://www.martin.loader.btinternet.co.uk/Lechlade.htm

 

Actually talking of gangways, why do the model ones extend past the buffers .. Compare with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GWR_coach_E164_BCK_7377_roof_profile.jpg

 

Having had a close look the footboard is broken on the rh end of the maroon one, Simon needs to find some better packing material for that . I'll be replacing those in brass ala the Staniers I think!

[orcadian]

In Hugh Dady's book ' Heyday of the Warships' (IA), on p. 49, there is a photo of the up 'CRE' on 29 May 1967 with a blue & grey Hawksworth SK as the leading coach behind two Green 'Warships'. (Two because D804 has just failed at Par - must have been below par, then!). The picture also has two maroon Hawksworths (one a BSK) in a siding in the background.

 

In Huntriss & Gray 'Diesel Hydraulics in the West Country' (IA), on 27th August 1966, picture on p.18, it loos as though the down Kensington - St. Austell Motorail has a rake of at least 7 maroon Hawksworths, including a BSK, and two CKs.

 

Most pictures I've seen today show, as others have said, single vehicles as 'strengtheners' with Mk 1 rakes on mainline duties, or two or three as part of the train on various secondary (or lower) routes throughout the region, including Birmingham suburbans, Gloucestershire/Oxfordshire and West Country.

 

Still, who needs to be constrained by reality?

Richard

[robertcwp]

The only photo I know of that shows three blue/grey Hawksworth coaches (all SK) is Plate 32 in Profile of the Warships. They are in a train entering Exeter St Davids from the West behind D806 Cambrian. Date given is 17 August 1968. There are photos of individual blue/grey Hawksworths, including colour ones, behind Westerns, D800 Warships and D600 Warships. Around 1967, one appears to have been the regular Plymouth-Penzance coach added to the front of the Cornish Riviera, and running as the leading vehicle in both directions west of Plymouth.

 

I believe the numbers were 1719, 2135 and 2283.

 

Gangway adaptors on British Standard gangways were fitted to many coaches and remained on the vehicle. Most of the Hawksworth stock running in the 1960s probably had them, including those that survived into blue/grey. There was therefore no problem in coupling to Mark I stock.

 

So far as I can establish, the last withdrawals of Hawksworth passenger stock took place in 1968, including those in blue/grey.

[craigwelsh]

Gangway adaptors on British Standard gangways were fitted to many coaches and remained on the vehicle. Most of the Hawksworth stock running in the 1960s probably had them, including those that survived into blue/grey. There was therefore no problem in coupling to Mark I stock.

Ah, i'd thought they would get taken off after use. Have you got any close ups of something fitted with one to see what they looked like? Sorry for misleading people on that one!

 

Did the sleepers last any longer or would they also be 1968, I know Didcot got their in 1970 but im not sure if that was from departmental use somewhere for staff.

[robertcwp]

Ah, i'd thought they would get taken off after use. Have you got any close ups of something fitted with one to see what they looked like? Sorry for misleading people on that one!

 

Did the sleepers last any longer or would they also be 1968, I know Didcot got their in 1970 but im not sure if that was from departmental use somewhere for staff.

My reference to 1968 related to the day coaches rather than sleepers, which might have lasted slightly longer. I don't have any gangway adaptor photos I can post. I think the difference was a larger faceplate and extra or different clips allowing the gangway to be clipped to a Pullman gangway.

[chrisf]

If anyone wants support for the case for chocolate and cream Hawksworths, let me tell you about brake composite 7377. It was built in 1948 carrying that livery and spent most of the period from then till 1957 reserved for VIP specials so only emerged from the shed at Old Oak Common on rare occasions. By the time it was finally deemed to need a repaint, in 1957, the WR had reintroduced chocolate and cream for named trains and Ocean Liner boat specials so lucky old 7377 was given a fresh coat of chocolate and cream and never carried blood and custard. It continued to accompany VIPs and the saloons in which they travelled for some years afterwards. I haven't yet discovered whether or when it acquired lined maroon livery.

 

Oh yes: if anyone fancies doing the conversion of BCK to slip coach, they were choc'n'cream as well.

 

Chris

[Pennine MC]

The only photo I know of that shows three blue/grey Hawksworth coaches (all SK) is Plate 32 in Profile of the Warships. They are in a train entering Exeter St Davids from the West behind D806 Cambrian. Date given is 17 August 1968. There are photos of individual blue/grey Hawksworths, including colour ones, behind Westerns, D800 Warships and D600 Warships. Around 1967, one appears to have been the regular Plymouth-Penzance coach added to the front of the Cornish Riviera, and running as the leading vehicle in both directions west of Plymouth.

 

I believe the numbers were 1719, 2135 and 2283.

 

 

 

I'm surprised it's not been commented on earlier but there was a letter in the last Toddler about these, which said they'd been retained to accomodate catering trolleys on the Cornish leg of the journey of through trains, as they wouldnt fit through Mk1 compartment doors. No idea of the relative dimensions of said parts of said coaches, but it does seem a plausible explanation for three otherwise obsolete vehicles to receive blue/grey - other than the fairly numerous examples of Staniers, there were no other pre-BR designs of non-specialist day coach* so treated.

 

* Please note careful wording. If this thread descends into the usual 'ah but' posts and long lists of buffets and sleepers, I will scream; very, very loudly

[phil-b259]

 

Could you elaborate about the gangways please Craig? I hadn't realised that different gangways were incompatible with each other.

For example, as said above, I have seen plenty of evidence of Hawksworth and Collet stock together but also of Collet and MK1s together. So I'm guessing an adapter would have to be used in at least one of these situations. Would it be obvious from a modelling point of view?

 

Cheers

 

Just to clarify, BR, SR, LNER & most of the Paullman Car Company designed coaches used "pullman" style gangways and buckeye couplers with the buffers retracted within coach rakes. In this design the bottom of the gangway structure also acts as part of the buffering system and as a consiquence the whole gangway is far more "beefy" looking than the alternative "British standard" gangway which was used by the LMS & GWR. In this design the gangway was partly suspended from the end of the coach and was of far lighter construction with conventional screw couplings and buffers used in sets.

 

As others have said there were adaptors designed to fit onto a "pullman" style gangway to make it compatable with the "British standard" type (with coupling via screw link and buffers extended) however its obvious that it makes life simpler if they are not required, hence the speedy demise of mixed designs on principal services once sufficiant MK1s were avaleable

[robertcwp]

Just to clarify, BR, SR, LNER & most of the Paullman Car Company designed coaches used "pullman" style gangways and buckeye couplers with the buffers retracted within coach rakes. In this design the bottom of the gangway structure also acts as part of the buffering system and as a consiquence the whole gangway is far more "beefy" looking than the alternative "British standard" gangway which was used by the LMS & GWR. In this design the gangway was partly suspended from the end of the coach and was of far lighter construction with conventional screw couplings and buffers used in sets.

 

As others have said there were adaptors designed to fit onto a "pullman" style gangway to make it compatable with the "British standard" type (with coupling via screw link and buffers extended) however its obvious that it makes life simpler if they are not required, hence the speedy demise of mixed designs on principal services once sufficiant MK1s were avaleable

The gangway adaptors were fitted to the British Standard gangways. In most WR carriage working books, vehicles that needed adaptors were marked as such.

[gwrrob]

Talking to my local retailer about these and he says the rep told him they wil be released in chocolate and cream livery.Apparently they have some photographic evidence now.

[2ManySpams]

Talking to my local retailer about these and he says the rep told him they wil be released in chocolate and cream livery.Apparently they have some photographic evidence now.

 

I wonder if a BG ever got onto the North Cornwall....the maroon one on the Hattons site looks nice:

Edited August 4, 2010 by Mod6
So it does, but putting the photo here breaks copyright - please just use a link if you need to

[Miss Prism]

I wonder if a BG ever got onto the North Cornwall

I would have thought that normal southern CCTs/Utility vans would have sufficed for that line. More to the point, did any (G)WR stock work the North Cornwall?

[The Stationmaster]

I would have thought that normal southern CCTs/Utility vans would have sufficed for that line. More to the point, did any (G)WR stock work the North Cornwall?

 

 

Or was allowed over the North Cornwall? No time to look at present but I'll try to delve later on through what I can of the GWR coaching stock restrictions I have got to see if they were permitted, if I can pin down the body dimensions.

[Adam]

I would have thought that normal southern CCTs/Utility vans would have sufficed for that line. More to the point, did any (G)WR stock work the North Cornwall?

 

On what grounds? With a few exceptions (block BRUTE trains, brakes allocated to particular workings and so on), parcels stock seems to have been relatively 'common user' in BR days. After the WR takeover of the SR lines west of Salisbury, there are quite a few photos showing G(WR) stock on the North Cornwall Railway prior to the near wholesale introduction of DMUs (though their number is skewed by the number of 'last chance' trips). Can I lay hands on one at this precise moment? No!

 

Adam

[craigwelsh]

Talking to my local retailer about these and he says the rep told him they wil be released in chocolate and cream livery.Apparently they have some photographic evidence now.

BR choc and cream as per Chris' note above? Obviously its know that some were built by the GWR in choc and cream and pictures of those are in all the books.

[2ManySpams]

I would have thought that normal southern CCTs/Utility vans would have sufficed for that line. More to the point, did any (G)WR stock work the North Cornwall?

 

Southern passenger carrying stock such as the Maunsells, Bulleids and Mk1s was the norm for the North Cornwall. Late in the day i've photos of Thompson SKs working with Bulleid BCKs and earlier shots of Ex ER cafeteria cars. The only WR passenger stock i've seen are the B-sets coming off the Bodmin line into Wadebridge and the WR line into Launceston.

 

Non Passenger stock is a different matter. Yes the SR had loads of bogie and 4 wheel CCTs which got well used but, as photos show, full brake and parcels stock from the MR and ER were reasonably common in BR steam days (E179E at Padstow in 4/6/60 for instance). I've not seen any WR bogie brake or parcels stock in photos though, which is a pity as the Hawksworth BG looks great. (I'd love to proven wrong though!)

 

Freight stock - loads of ex WR wagons on the NCR, particularly toad brake vans on specials....

 

Oh, to answer another question the NCR was always standard gauge - further East the Exeter and Crediton was originally broad gauge.

[Adam]

Non Passenger stock is a different matter. Yes the SR had loads of bogie and 4 wheel CCTs which got well used but, as photos show, full brake and parcels stock from the MR and ER were reasonably common in BR steam days. I've not seen any WR bogie brake or parcels stock in photos though, which is a pity as the Hawksworth BG looks great. (I'd love to proven wrong though!)

 

In one of the diesel hydraulic books - an Ian Allan or Jayne's landscape format of some sort - there's a shot of a 22 crossing the girder bridge near Padstow with, I think, a 1935 type Maunsell brake and some GW stock making up the remainder of the rake. I remember it because it's one of the few shots of a diesel hauling a Maunsell. This is one of dad's books however, so I can't lay my hands on it right now. On p. 72 of On London and South Western Lines (Ian Allan, 1995), p. 72, there is what appears to be a Collett full brake - it's definitely a GW vehicle, but you can't see enough to be sure that it's a full brake [edit: there's no visible lining which must have informed my reasoning!]- heading towards Padstow at Halwill. There's an SR PMV/CCT ahead of it mind...

 

Adam

[Miss Prism]

Mike - Hawksworths were 64' x 8'11" (9'3" over handles), so I see no reason why they not eligible for the North Cornwall, but I guess my point was, as indicated by others, I've never seen any pics of (G)WR vehicles on the 'withered arm' bit of the line, i.e. with the exception of the odd interloper from Bodmin on the Wadebridge-Padstow section, so I look forward to Adam's picture references. (Edit: have just seen Adam's latest - thankyou!) Nice to hear that foreign BGs were seen at Padstow though, but I guess they must have been uncommon. BGs of any provenance were very rare on branch lines.

 

On the curtains matter, 3rd class compartments on Hawksworths were fitted with them, but I feel Hornby has greatly exaggerated their prominence, both in the 3rd and 1st class compartments. The official drawings do show a Hornby-ish shape, but the drawings were done to show how the curtains worked, and are not representative of how most were 'drawn'/'hung' in normal everyday working.

[2ManySpams]

In one of the diesel hydraulic books - an Ian Allan or Jayne's landscape format of some sort - there's a shot of a 22 crossing the girder bridge near Padstow with, I think, a 1935 type Maunsell brake and some GW stock making up the remainder of the rake. I remember it because it's one of the few shots of a diesel hauling a Maunsell. This is one of dad's books however, so I can't lay my hands on it right now. On p. 72 of On London and South Western Lines (Ian Allan, 1995), p. 72, there is what appears to be a Collett full brake - it's definitely a GW vehicle, but you can't see enough to be sure that it's a full brake - heading towards Padstow at Halwill. There's an SR PMV/CCT ahead of it mind...

 

Adam

 

Very interested in the Class 22 reference - as you say they were rare pulling passenger stock. Obviously i've not seen the photo put it sounds like the WR stock had come off the Bodmin line at Wadebridge (where it would have been attached to the Maunsell from Halwill) and was being taken fwd to Padstow. The point i was making was that WR passenger stock coming all the way along the NCR from Halwill didn't seen to happen.

 

Collett brake at Halwill? - well there you go Hornby should have done the Colletts instead

 

Would love to continue this conversation but it's obviously gone off topic for this thread. Please add anything else to the NCR one here.

[ThePipersSon]

I seem to remember that some Hawksworths were painted DMU green in the early sixties, and inserted into DMU sets for additional seating. Either that or my memory is playing up.

 

I suspect that this in one livery option Hornby will not be producing.

[dibber25]

From memory (I don't have access to my books at present) there were three of these, numbered in the W78xx series. They were initially painted light DMU green but later at least one was painted dark green (with droplights 'borrowed' from a maroon vehicle!) although it still ran in a light green DMU formation!

They were used to expand the Gloucester 3-car cross-country sets (Class 119) used on the fast Paddington-Oxford service to four cars and they provided compartment accommodation which wasn't normal in DMUs.

I seem to recall posting a colour picture on the old RMweb site.

CHRIS LEIGH

[BernardTPM]

The longest lasting normal service Hawkesworth's were the BGs, many of which ended up in blue and lasted until the late 1970s. There was also the Dynomometer Car, converted from a Corridor Second (Third) in 1961; that ended up in the Research blue/red livery (Test Coach 4?). That might make a couple of interesting 'Retailer Specials'.