Hornby 2022 Range - pre-announcement frothing - now closed

[newbryford]

7 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Trix did CKD as well; I had one of their self-assembly Westerns.  Locos had less components in those days, and assemby was pretty straightforward, no glueing and screwdriver with the kit IIRC. 
 

It was a way to avoid purchase tax, the forerunner of VAT. 

 

"Coachbuilder" and "Footplateman" were the coach and loco ranges IIRC. I have examples somewhere - unbulit...

Edited January 1, 2022 by newbryford

[Steamport Southport]

12 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

 

True, I had forgotten that aspect of it.  Couldn't get away with it today though, I'm sure VAT would be applied.

 

What you are really suggesting is something like the Dapol LMS coach kits which are the old Airfix models sold unassembled. Currently unavailable though.

 

This video shows them pretty well.

 

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

25 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

What you are really suggesting is something like the Dapol LMS coach kits which are the old Airfix models sold unassembled. Currently unavailable though.

 

This video shows them pretty well.

 

 

 

Jason

Discontinued AIUI. Perhaps the old 1970s moulds have finally worn out. The last pair I built definitely didn't go together as well as they used to.

 

Those, and the old Tri-ang CKD kits only really worked because of the simplicity of the complete versions from which they were derived.

 

Kits of coaches to the quality we expect nowadays would have to fit together very differently to current factory-finished models for Joe Average to be able to tackle them successfully.

 

John

Edited January 1, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Steamport Southport]

I would be surprised if they are totally gone as they were new versions of the old tooling. There are tell tale signs such as the battery boxes and roofs being wrong. So they were definitely retooled at some point.

 

I did hear a rumour that they were thought lost in the fire, but had been sent elsewhere for retooling and somebody got in touch with them a few years later saying something like "are these yours?". 

 

 

The problem is the market was probably flooded with them. Especially when you consider there was only 25 each of the Lavatory stock built!

 

Must get a couple more to finish off the set whilst they are still some available lurking on shelves. The Comet ones are a different diagram.

 

 

Jason

[Hroth]

10 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

My word, if this is only a wish list (which to me was more like froth) what on earth would a forth be like????

 

Well, on the East Coast, it would have a huge multi cantilever bridge crossing it...

 

Sorry!

 

Tiptoes out quietly...

 

[robmcg]

Ah, a note of welcome levity.

 

Just SO timely in view of the serious nature of the subject, the need for a re-tooled Black 5.

 

Ah, no, wait, Hornby already perfected that one....    I have photos which prove it.

 

 

Wouldn't it be Luverly.      All 29 variants, this year too. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by robmcg
addition

[Mr chapman]

I wouldn't bet against some sort of generic 45ft ish bogie coaches 

[Legend]

20 minutes ago, Mr chapman said:

I wouldn't bet against some sort of generic 45ft ish bogie coaches 

 I would . SK not smart or brave enough to think of that . He only did the generic 4 and 6 wheelers because Hattons had announced them and he thought he could exploit market . I know the Hornby versions were allegedly in preparation before Hattons announced  but Really SK is a follower rather than an innovator 

 

Anyway if you want generic coaches Grafar did them 43  years ago 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Legend

[ThaneofFife]

Intercity executive 125 and matching stock as a relivery. The Mk3s could double up for loco hauled too.

 

 

 

 

[rovex]

Must be about time their retooled their travelling post office coach!

[wombatofludham]

21 minutes ago, Legend said:

...but Really SK is a follower rather than an innovator 

 

 

Interesting observation, and one I've thought about Hornby for a while now.

Looking at their recent past when it comes to non-steam prototypes, there would seem to be a "follow my leader" aspect.  For years the "wise old sages" of the model world would routinely claim no-one would ever release any 3rd rail units, dismissing them as "boring", "mundane" and niche.  Then Bachmann stuck two fingers up to the purveyors of received wisdom and released the CEP and EPB.  This led to Hornby's "Marmite" VEP which despite it's detractors sell for silly money second hand on eBay, which, as a company desperate for easy cashflow to balance the books, you'd have thought someone at Hornby would have noticed and been releasing more, but then also released their range of "electric kettles", steam era EMUs which are as "Modern Image" as a Merchant Navy but which seem to have done OK for them, and has been a market they have kept to themselves.  But.  If Bachmann hadn't done the CEP, would Hornby have done the BIL and HAL?  Probably not.

The same pattern emerges with overhead electrics, where after Heljan's false start with their 86/2 the sages were quick to condemn overhead electrics as sales lemons, never to be developed beyond the aged Lima 87 and Hornby 86.  Once again, Bachmann stuck two fingers up and tooled up the 85 - and roughly in parallel, committed to a 90 when Hornby decided to go for an 87 (speculation on my part, but I suspect a spoiler given the 90 is pretty much an 87 mechanically, from a model perspective, and would have been the obvious follow on for Bachmann).  Again Hornby waited until Bachmann had proven the naysayers wrong to join in with a model - and when Cavalex announced their intention to develop a 91 and Mk4, Hornby dive in with a spoiler announcement, clearly having been shown by others that electrics can sell.  Had Bachmann not done their 85, Hornby would have been happy churning out their near 50 year old 87s and 86s for ever more, no doubt.  In fact I'm amazed they've let Denmark come back with an improved 86, snatching a model they clearly think of as "their territory".

On that basis, I wouldn't be surprised to see an updated 86/2 as a shot across Heljan's bows.  However, I still think a first generation DMU may yet emerge - it's a market Hornby have let Bachmann take from them, now Heljan and to a lesser extent Dapol have also made a mark, yet Hornby only have the 30 plus year old 110 and ex Lima 101 (nice above the chassis, not so good below).  Could this be the next move in the game of "follow my leader?"

This is important.  Hornby get the junior trainset market and are the undisputed leaders in that field.  They also get the pretty kettle on the mantlepiece market.  However, not to put too fine a point on it, that market will dwindle over time, not vanish, but dwindle.  In the meantime, a whole generation of modellers in my age cohort will see Hornby as irrelevant because they don't make the same kind of range and breadth of non-steam outline models as their competitors.  They really could do with a post-steam market analysist who preferably has an active eBay account so they can see where the nearest thing to a free market we have is trending price wise.  Don't think Mr Kohler has that skill set. 

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I would be surprised if they are totally gone as they were new versions of the old tooling. There are tell tale signs such as the battery boxes and roofs being wrong. So they were definitely retooled at some point.

 

I did hear a rumour that they were thought lost in the fire, but had been sent elsewhere for retooling and somebody got in touch with them a few years later saying something like "are these yours?". 

 

 

The problem is the market was probably flooded with them. Especially when you consider there was only 25 each of the Lavatory stock built!

 

Must get a couple more to finish off the set whilst they are still some available lurking on shelves. The Comet ones are a different diagram.

 

 

Jason

I've chopped up quite a few Dapol coach kits over the years. They were still readily available until about 18 months ago, and had been produced (or at least packed) recently enough for some to have the new Kitmaster labelling. They and the corridor ones disappeared at the same time which suggests it was intentional.

 

ISTR Dapol actually announced they were being withdrawn, but I can't find where at the moment. My local shop used to keep them in stock but haven't had any since before lockdown began. They will presumably know if that is the case; and I'll ask when I'm in again.

 

I was under the impression that the only coach tool lost in the fire all those years ago was the alternative chassis for the Restaurant car, which is why Hornby ones only come with the version with the cut-outs.

 

John

Edited January 2, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Interesting observation, and one I've thought about Hornby for a while now.

Looking at their recent past when it comes to non-steam prototypes, there would seem to be a "follow my leader" aspect.  For years the "wise old sages" of the model world would routinely claim no-one would ever release any 3rd rail units, dismissing them as "boring", "mundane" and niche.  Then Bachmann stuck two fingers up to the purveyors of received wisdom and released the CEP and EPB.  This led to Hornby's "Marmite" VEP which despite it's detractors sell for silly money second hand on eBay, which, as a company desperate for easy cashflow to balance the books, you'd have thought someone at Hornby would have noticed and been releasing more, but then also released their range of "electric kettles", steam era EMUs which are as "Modern Image" as a Merchant Navy but which seem to have done OK for them, and has been a market they have kept to themselves.  But.  If Bachmann hadn't done the CEP, would Hornby have done the BIL and HAL?  Probably not.

The same pattern emerges with overhead electrics, where after Heljan's false start with their 86/2 the sages were quick to condemn overhead electrics as sales lemons, never to be developed beyond the aged Lima 87 and Hornby 86.  Once again, Bachmann stuck two fingers up and tooled up the 85 - and roughly in parallel, committed to a 90 when Hornby decided to go for an 87 (speculation on my part, but I suspect a spoiler given the 90 is pretty much an 87 mechanically, from a model perspective, and would have been the obvious follow on for Bachmann).  Again Hornby waited until Bachmann had proven the naysayers wrong to join in with a model - and when Cavalex announced their intention to develop a 91 and Mk4, Hornby dive in with a spoiler announcement, clearly having been shown by others that electrics can sell.  Had Bachmann not done their 85, Hornby would have been happy churning out their near 50 year old 87s and 86s for ever more, no doubt.  In fact I'm amazed they've let Denmark come back with an improved 86, snatching a model they clearly think of as "their territory".

On that basis, I wouldn't be surprised to see an updated 86/2 as a shot across Heljan's bows.  However, I still think a first generation DMU may yet emerge - it's a market Hornby have let Bachmann take from them, now Heljan and to a lesser extent Dapol have also made a mark, yet Hornby only have the 30 plus year old 110 and ex Lima 101 (nice above the chassis, not so good below).  Could this be the next move in the game of "follow my leader?"

This is important.  Hornby get the junior trainset market and are the undisputed leaders in that field.  They also get the pretty kettle on the mantlepiece market.  However, not to put too fine a point on it, that market will dwindle over time, not vanish, but dwindle.  In the meantime, a whole generation of modellers in my age cohort will see Hornby as irrelevant because they don't make the same kind of range and breadth of non-steam outline models as their competitors.  They really could do with a post-steam market analysist who preferably has an active eBay account so they can see where the nearest thing to a free market we have is trending price wise.  Don't think Mr Kohler has that skill set. 

I'm not sure if Hornby, as currently constituted, is too bothered about others gaining the ascendancy in the market for even steam-era D&E models. The obvious biggies, the 37 and 47, are conspicuous by their absence from the "current standards" part of the range produced by our supposed flagship supplier. For a "full range" player, that's equivalent to not making Mallard or Flying Scotsman....

 

Why is another matter; certainly I think the post-privatisation/post-franchising scenes are probably a bit too complicated for their liking. The IET was something they couldn't not do (if you get my drift).

 

Now back to trading profitably, and clearly having put serious money into making all those ruddy great LNER things prior to that, they seem content with their steam era status quo. There will also be a need for some degree of (but not too much) consolidation over the next year or two. If returns from that sector hold up, can Hornby really transfer production slots to new post-steam items knowing that most of what they'll be used for will duplicate items already, or shortly to be, available from others? The odd deliberate instance of "get your tanks off my lawn" might be vaguely amusing to us as bystanders. Too much of it would smack of desperation, and I can't see shareholders wearing it were it to backfire.

 

The APT indicates that Hornby are still firmly in nostalgia mode, and my guess is there will be no substantial change of direction at Margate until somebody succeeds SK and wants to put his/her mark on the business.

 

John

Edited January 2, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Katie87006]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I reckons your going to get one of those on your list, maybe even a whole new loco to put it in.

 

91 without TTS would be odd, 90 cant be far behind, we saw a 73 chip being tested in the TV series, so its on horizon.. the 59 EP still stood out as unexplained in its appearance for me…

 

Which episode was this cl59 ep in? Whatever 59s i saw were all typical Hornby railroad models. 

 

Anyone has a screenshot or the details of the episode so that i can look it up online? 

[Katie87006]

54 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

The APT indicates that Hornby are still firmly in nostalgia mode, and my guess is there will be no substantial change of direction at Margate until somebody succeeds SK and wants to put his/her mark on the business.

 

John

 

I wonder if i can put in my cv. But I'm afraid I'll be rejected with my bold plans to embrace 21 pin dcc or next 18 or plux22. 

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, Katie87006 said:

 

Which episode was this cl59 ep in? Whatever 59s i saw were all typical Hornby railroad models. 

 

Anyone has a screenshot or the details of the episode so that i can look it up online? 

Nov 1st I think (i didnt watch until a week later)

there was a Grey class 59 EP on the side of the test track in the APT testing episode. I was puzzled why.
The 59 is an Lima model, Hornby converted it to Railroad over a decade ago and its been in stock ever since.

As mentioned with the 66, and as saw with the Red 66 in the tv series, if they need to test one, all they need do is go to the store room and get one off the shelf, off the spares desk or where-ever, but they have access to them.

 

I cant think why they’d need an EP creating and sending from China, unless they've done something to it that requires evaluating, or its a new tooling.

 

anyway its here…

 

 

 

 

[DutyDruid]

8 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

... and my guess is there will be no substantial change of direction at Margate until somebody succeeds SK and wants to put his/her mark on the business.

 

Hang on, hasn't that happened once already? Didn't it all go wrong and SK was brought back to sort it out?

[Dunsignalling]

34 minutes ago, DutyDruid said:

 

Hang on, hasn't that happened once already? Didn't it all go wrong and SK was brought back to sort it out?

Agreed, but want went wrong last time (and most of the other times Hornby has got close to self-destruction) was largely unrelated to the model trains side of the business.

 

That doesn't directly impinge on the relative emphasis on different eras or types of traction within Hornby Railways, though the current team (SK included) clearly has a "comfort zone".

 

The established bias toward the steam era is still working well for now and, if we accept that there is a finite number of new products that Hornby have the resources (both human and financial) to develop/launch in any one year, the law of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" will come into play. 

 

John

Edited January 2, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[trevor7598]

I would settle for some later build Maunsell coaches, we have only had one so far,

in the form of the truly superb push/pull driving brake composite.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Agreed, but want went wrong last time (and most of the other times Hornby has got close to self-destruction) was largely unrelated to the model trains side of the business.

 

That doesn't directly impinge on the relative emphasis on different eras or types of traction within Hornby Railways, though the current team (SK included) clearly has a "comfort zone".

 

The established bias toward the steam era is still working well for now and, if we accept that there is a finite number of new products that Hornby have the resources (both human and financial) to develop/launch in any one year, the law of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" will come into play. 

 

John

I'm not so sure about your final point as Hornby seems to have at last got hold of the idea that in today's market you have t keep producing something new in order to stay in the game.  If they stop doing that then they'll be in trouble but on the other hand to keep doing it is clearly (from their accounts)  costing them increasing amounts of money.  If they drop into 'if it ain't broke don't fix it mode' then they will have to drastically cut costs and that will become a vicious circle which hits investment and concentrates what money is left on the really profitable areas.

 

So what they might have to do is decide where to concentrate investment = new products (in terms of ranges) and that would inevitably be driven largely by profitability with limited room for sentiment unless they really can succeed in pulling round the overall business on a continuing basis instead of just a year with unusual market characteristics.  Time will tell.  But what that will (have to) mean for now is continued innovation, new ideas, and new products that will sell at a good rate of profit.

 

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'm not so sure about your final point as Hornby seems to have at last got hold of the idea that in today's market you have t keep producing something new in order to stay in the game.  If they stop doing that then they'll be in trouble but on the other hand to keep doing it is clearly (from their accounts)  costing them increasing amounts of money.  If they drop into 'if it ain't broke don't fix it mode' then they will have to drastically cut costs and that will become a vicious circle which hits investment and concentrates what money is left on the really profitable areas.

 

So what they might have to do is decide where to concentrate investment = new products (in terms of ranges) and that would inevitably be driven largely by profitability with limited room for sentiment unless they really can succeed in pulling round the overall business on a continuing basis instead of just a year with unusual market characteristics.  Time will tell.  But what that will (have to) mean for now is continued innovation, new ideas, and new products that will sell at a good rate of profit.

 

 

 

 

Agreed, Mike, but my take on the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" was Hornby sticking with their historic steam-heavy strategy rather than a lack of innovation per se.

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Agreed, Mike, but my take on the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" was Hornby sticking with their historic steam-heavy strategy rather than a lack of innovation per se.

 

John

Which of course might also go wrong for them one days as the market declines (as you said).  Presumably they stick with it because it makes money but also keeps them clear of the increasingly crowded marketplace for contemporary/modern stuff where their research/design/producdtion/selling cycle could expose them to be beaten to the launch pad?  Just look what might have happened if they too had retooled their HAA to a much higher standard!

 

Their approach, especially due to the annual announcement strategy, leaves them exposed whatever they do (instanced in some respects by  what has happened with Lion and the Titfield Thunderbolt and the need for knee jerk public announcement) so it can happen with steam era stuff where others are also in that market era and can move more quickly bwcause they announce on a different basis.

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Which of course might also go wrong for them one days as the market declines (as you said).  Presumably they stick with it because it makes money but also keeps them clear of the increasingly crowded marketplace for contemporary/modern stuff where their research/design/producdtion/selling cycle could expose them to be beaten to the launch pad?  Just look what might have happened if they too had retooled their HAA to a much higher standard!

 

Their approach, especially due to the annual announcement strategy, leaves them exposed whatever they do (instanced in some respects by  what has happened with Lion and the Titfield Thunderbolt and the need for knee jerk public announcement) so it can happen with steam era stuff where others are also in that market era and can move more quickly bwcause they announce on a different basis.

Perhaps inevitable because Hornby is structurally more complex and consequently less agile than more specialised newcomers who can concentrate their efforts on one or two projects at a time. Hornby has to keep "everything else" ticking over at the same time and their "everything else" is a pretty big operation.  Short of breaking it up, I can't see that changing quickly.

 

Annual range announcements also inhibit agility, so maybe Bachmann has got it right by shifting to quarterly announcements/progress reports.....

 

Hornby undoubtedly need to increase their rate of innovation, but they also need to pick any fights carefully. Their "bet" on a new product will always be significantly greater than any placed by a new entrant they duplicate.

 

John

 

 

 

[wombatofludham]

Whilst I agree that "shiny new models" sell, especially if they come with "I didn't see that coming" attached, I still can't help thinking there are some cheaper reliveries that could equally generate some very much needed revenue and sales without the need to spend between a quarter and a million sovs on tooling.  I've already said the VEPs go for daft money on Tatbay which indicates a pent up demand, and how many times have you heard us wanting a banger blue 31/4?  The 50 - warts and all - will always benefit from some more NSE and Large Logo liveries.  They won't grab the headlines from Ritalin deprived YouTube bloggers, but for the cost of some artwork design and raw materials, they should be a cheaper way of getting that all important cashflow as Hornby tries to rebuild it's finances.

Their recent track record in reliveries on existing toolings isn't brilliant and I'm surprised to be honest what could be a useful cash cow to help boost the "innovation" fund isn't being given more rational attention by the company.

[blueeighties]

24 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Whilst I agree that "shiny new models" sell, especially if they come with "I didn't see that coming" attached, I still can't help thinking there are some cheaper reliveries that could equally generate some very much needed revenue and sales without the need to spend between a quarter and a million sovs on tooling.  I've already said the VEPs go for daft money on Tatbay which indicates a pent up demand, and how many times have you heard us wanting a banger blue 31/4?  The 50 - warts and all - will always benefit from some more NSE and Large Logo liveries.  They won't grab the headlines from Ritalin deprived YouTube bloggers, but for the cost of some artwork design and raw materials, they should be a cheaper way of getting that all important cashflow as Hornby tries to rebuild it's finances.

Their recent track record in reliveries on existing toolings isn't brilliant and I'm surprised to be honest what could be a useful cash cow to help boost the "innovation" fund isn't being given more rational attention by the company.

It's now got to the point where Hornby have dragged their heels over the years to constant repeated  requests to produce basic bread and butter liveries, or detail variants in the diesel and electric world, from both customers and trade that we are now at a point where other manufacturers are simply catering to market demand and producing a brand new, correct spec model. Witness the 47, 56, 66 etc. I'm sure it won't be long before the class 31, and others are catered for.