Is ordering directly from Hornby the best option?

[G-BOAF]

Anything that the RMWeb community can do to lobby Hornby over this policy?

As @AY Mod indicated earlier, people have relationships with their favourite retailers and its commercially and personally unfair to bypass them to order direct with Hornby.

Hornby's actions are eroding the retailer network and community that support the hobby from the ground up.

 

 

 

 

[PaulRhB]

17 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

yes, but if a shop is honouring its pre-orders at price X (or new RRP -10%), but they can't fulfill your order because supplies have been directed elsewhere (to fulfil direct orders TAKEN AFTER YOURS by the manufacturer), surely there is something fishy going  on; there must be some avenue of redress available somewhere.

It may be fishy, irritating and poor in our opinion but it’s perfectly legal. With a phone you can buy another make, there’s not really the market for both in model railways in most cases hence all this silliness with Hornby trying to gazump others announcements.
We can only guess what the decisions on stock supply are and unless there’s something blatantly illegal about it no one is going to waste the money in court trying to prove it otherwise. 
They are relying on the brand scaring other people off competing but increasingly the quality and Mr K’s buzz phrase on attention to detail is slipping in their rush to beat others to market.

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Anything that the RMWeb community can do to lobby Hornby over this policy?

As @AY Mod indicated earlier, people have relationships with their favourite retailers and its commercially and personally unfair to bypass them to order direct with Hornby.

Hornby's actions are eroding the retailer network and community that support the hobby from the ground up.

All you can do is not buy from Hornby at the risk of not getting it. Rmweb is a tiny fraction of the Hornby market.
I try to use the local instead already but certain items like the APT where multiple items are needed I’m afraid I ended up at Hornby because they were the only source for all of it by the time they’d finished mucking shops around. 
It’s only a matter of time until they can’t reliably supply their online shop too if they’ve cut off other outlets. Hornby have been dumping random warehouse stock onto shops for several years, it’s in the contract to be a stockist, and it’s annoyed retailers when it’s done right before a load of pre orders arrive as they have to find more cash suddenly. It also doesn’t help when it’s completely inappropriate for the area the shop is in or a larger number of a niche set. My local was rather perturbed to suddenly get 6 royal train sets amongst a large delivery that he hadn’t asked for with an invoice for his pre orders waiting as there wasn’t enough money left on his account!

[admiles]

On 24/01/2022 at 15:28, Geep7 said:

I'd forgotten about Gaugemaster, however, having just looked, if price was a factor, I wouldn't be saving much by ordering from them than direct. I would be saving 4p, at current pre-order price of course.

 

Try Scograil. https://www.scograil.co.uk/

[AY Mod]

23 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Hornby have been dumping random warehouse stock onto shops for several years, it’s in the contract to be a stockist, and it’s annoyed retailers when it’s done right before a load of pre orders arrive as they have to find more cash suddenly. It also doesn’t help when it’s completely inappropriate for the area the shop is in or a larger number of a niche set. My local was rather perturbed to suddenly get 6 royal train sets amongst a large delivery that he hadn’t asked for with an invoice for his pre orders waiting as there wasn’t enough money left on his account!

 

This matches grumbles I have heard from several other stockists too.

[Geep7]

35 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

Try Scograil. https://www.scograil.co.uk/

Have looked at Scograil before, and they don't appear to stock any of the Spanish outline Electrotren, only a couple of the British NCB 0-6-0 tank locos. I guess, similiarly to my local Hornby stockist, they could order it in as a special order, but would there be any guarantee that they would get it? As the model in question is of a subject fairly close to my heart, i'd rather know I will get it, than have to chase around the Internet trying to order it from somewhere in Europe....

[Mike Harvey]

As a direct consequence of the Hornby's actions over the past month, I have re-evaluated my Arnold pre-orders with Hornby. Now I have a cancelled them, Hornby can re-allocate the stock to retailers. Some hopes. The spending saved has allowed me to pay off my invoices for RevolutioN Trains Class 320/321 EMUs, and in the end the "nice to have" Arnold car carriers and sleeping cars will not be missed. 

[G-BOAF]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

 Hornby have been dumping random warehouse stock onto shops for several years, it’s in the contract to be a stockist, and it’s annoyed retailers when it’s done right before a load of pre orders arrive as they have to find more cash suddenly. It also doesn’t help when it’s completely inappropriate for the area the shop is in or a larger number of a niche set. My local was rather perturbed to suddenly get 6 royal train sets amongst a large delivery that he hadn’t asked for with an invoice for his pre orders waiting as there wasn’t enough money left on his account!

 

Just to check I'm understanding this correctly - its in Hornby's contract with retailers that they can offload warehoues stock to them, sending stock and billing retailer accounts without authorisation from the retailer that they actually want this stock?

 

Surely a shop can choose to accpet or reject stock, and cannot be made to purchase stock they have not ordered. Or is this the point of the contract? Who on earth would sign such a thing...

What happens if they cannot afford to pay for their orders AND the overstock offload?

[PaulRhB]

23 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

 

Just to check I'm understanding this correctly - its in Hornby's contract with retailers that they can offload warehoues stock to them, sending stock and billing retailer accounts without authorisation from the retailer that they actually want this stock?

 

Surely a shop can choose to accpet or reject stock, and cannot be made to purchase stock they have not ordered. Or is this the point of the contract? Who on earth would sign such a thing...

What happens if they cannot afford to pay for their orders AND the overstock offload?

There’s no doubt some detail to the percentage in the contract but yes they are / were committed to taking a certain amount of general stock too. If they can’t afford it then their order waits until they can. I know my local ceased having an account for a while and went via a wholesaler as they were fed up with it but the rep assured them things had changed so they reopened the account. 
I didn’t discuss the full details but he was happy to try new things every now and again to see what other avenues might sell but baulked at a big box of identical niche sets when they had the other items he had ordered in stock at the same time. It looked like a way of forcing him to keep more credit tied up in their hands plus just stock dumping rather than a mixed selection to try out. 

[Widnes Model Centre]

38 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

There’s no doubt some detail to the percentage in the contract but yes they are / were committed to taking a certain amount of general stock too. If they can’t afford it then their order waits until they can. I know my local ceased having an account for a while and went via a wholesaler as they were fed up with it but the rep assured them things had changed so they reopened the account. 
I didn’t discuss the full details but he was happy to try new things every now and again to see what other avenues might sell but baulked at a big box of identical niche sets when they had the other items he had ordered in stock at the same time. It looked like a way of forcing him to keep more credit tied up in their hands plus just stock dumping rather than a mixed selection to try out. 

 

I think this relates to terms and conditions in the past. We had to stock certain items, one of which from memory was a Hornby Turntable and other items deemed as "must have in stock Hornby items". They also had to be on display in a prominent position. We stocked Hornby, Scalextric, Airfix, Humbrol and Corgi. Trying to display five brands all in a prominent position proved futile and was never muttered again.

 

These condition no longer apply. We are not forced to take any stock that we haven't ordered.

 

Hope this clarifies the current situation.

[PaulRhB]

Just now, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

I think this relates to terms and conditions in the past. We had to stock certain items, one of which from memory was a Hornby Turntable and other items deemed as "must have in stock Hornby items". They also had to be on display in a prominent position. We stocked Hornby, Scalextric, Airfix, Humbrol and Corgi. Trying to display five brands all in a prominent position proved futile and was never muttered again.

 

These condition no longer apply. We are not forced to take any stock that we haven't ordered.

 

Hope this clarifies the current situation.

Ta it does, did it only change under the tier system or a year or two before? That might be why our local reopened his account. 

[Widnes Model Centre]

7 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Ta it does, did it only change under the tier system or a year or two before? That might be why our local reopened his account. 

 

From memory it started but never really got off the ground under the previous board. I do remember one of the items we had to stock had not been available for a long time and was still out of stock. Right hand and left hand out of sync?

[PaulRhB]

5 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

Right hand and left hand out of sync?

 
I think given the current situation the right hand may have wandered off. 
 

[shunny]

There are still some major issues with how Hornby allocate stock regionally my local based on Kirkcaldy a stopping point for LNER Azumas got allocated 1 but did get allocated a total of 7 4Veps from the 2 liveries and the steam loco he was allocated the most of was the M7 in BR early green and not for example the Haymarket A4. To say he was bemused is an understatement!

[Legend]

2 hours ago, shunny said:

There are still some major issues with how Hornby allocate stock regionally my local based on Kirkcaldy a stopping point for LNER Azumas got allocated 1 but did get allocated a total of 7 4Veps from the 2 liveries and the steam loco he was allocated the most of was the M7 in BR early green and not for example the Haymarket A4. To say he was bemused is an understatement!

 

But really says it all :  Hornby are clueless 

 

Again I point out what is required is a basic ordering system  . Its not rocket science - look at all the other companies you use . order material, it turns up or they tell you its out of stock etc etc . If they cant master that .........................

[admiles]

22 hours ago, Geep7 said:

Have looked at Scograil before, and they don't appear to stock any of the Spanish outline Electrotren, only a couple of the British NCB 0-6-0 tank locos. I guess, similiarly to my local Hornby stockist, they could order it in as a special order, but would there be any guarantee that they would get it? As the model in question is of a subject fairly close to my heart, i'd rather know I will get it, than have to chase around the Internet trying to order it from somewhere in Europe....

 

All I can say is in the many years I've been using them they've never once failed to get anything I've pre-ordered with them.

[CUCKOO LINE]

6 hours ago, Legend said:

 

But really says it all :  Hornby are clueless 

 

Again I point out what is required is a basic ordering system  . Its not rocket science - look at all the other companies you use . order material, it turns up or they tell you its out of stock etc etc . If they cant master that .........................

Perhaps Hornbys geography is awry and they don't know where towns are actually located in the UK !!

[Dunsignalling]

On 09/02/2022 at 10:13, CUCKOO LINE said:

But I suspect Joe Public only regards Hornby as model railways because when he wants to buy his offspring a present ne sees Hornby in a physical shop whether toy or model shop with some nice sets. If that physical store wasn't there not sure he would search out The Hornby website. Plus you,re not going to hide competitors for long, new entrant in modelling railways will soon find out there are other people making trains and doing what they want.

Agreed, the only people who nowadays think Hornby model trains are all there is to be had is are those who have never gone shopping for any.

 

Anyone who is likely to actually spend money is likely to check out the hobby via a model shop, a magazine (Hornby?), or logging onto the internet, (even if you search "Hornby" much else will come up) and will have their eyes opened long before their wallet.

 

Hornby may be the "the household name", but Hoover bears witness to that status not doing much to protect market share in the face of a growing number of innovative competitors. 

 

In the Information Age, has being synonymous with what you sell, perhaps, become a rather empty claim to fame? 

 

John

Edited February 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

On 10/02/2022 at 14:31, G-BOAF said:

 

Just to check I'm understanding this correctly - its in Hornby's contract with retailers that they can offload warehoues stock to them, sending stock and billing retailer accounts without authorisation from the retailer that they actually want this stock?

 

Surely a shop can choose to accpet or reject stock, and cannot be made to purchase stock they have not ordered. Or is this the point of the contract? Who on earth would sign such a thing...

What happens if they cannot afford to pay for their orders AND the overstock offload?

 

They get the overstock, and the stuff they've ordered gets held back. How well Hornby gets away with it depends on how feisty the retailer is.

 

I more than once witnessed my former (now retired) regular supplier having telephone "discussions" about the latest box of unwanted stock that had arrived unbidden. He had been praying for years that somebody (anybody) else would get big enough to allow him to bin off Hornby altogether.

 

The situation described by Shunny is (or used to be) pretty much typical and it wasn't unknown for him to arrange swaps with a similarly afflicted fellow retailer in the North East so the products ended up in outlets where they had some chance of actually being bought.

 

Hornby seemed incapable of comprehending that "local" items sell best in most places, with "Mallard" and "Flying Scotsman" having limited enthusiast appeal in the West Country and the same applying to King Arthurs and T9s in the Newcastle area. 

 

John

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[cessna152towser]

After the Captain Tom debacle where thankfully a friendly retailer had kept one aside for me or I would have missed out, I cancelled all my other pre-orders with Hornby.    I have also had pre-orders with retailers cancelled.  Placing pre-orders for Hornby whether direct or through a retailer is a gamble which I am no longer prepared to take and I no longer have any Hornby items on pre-order.   

[30801]

1 hour ago, cessna152towser said:

After the Captain Tom debacle  

 

Not quite sure why that counts as a debacle?

[2E Sub Shed]

On 11/02/2022 at 17:14, Dunsignalling said:

The situation described by Shunny is (or used to be) pretty much typical and it wasn't unknown for him to arrange swaps with a similarly afflicted fellow retailer in the North East so the products ended up in outlets where they had some chance of actually being bought.

 

Hornby seemed incapable of comprehending that "local" items sell best in most places, with "Mallard" and "Flying Scotsman" having limited enthusiast appeal in the West Country and the same applying to King Arthurs and T9s in the Newcastle area. 

 

Was told the same story by another (now sadly closed) retailer who had similar arrangements in place to "relocate" out of area products.  

[steve45]

On 24/01/2022 at 15:59, Black 5 Bear said:

And in the case of the new Caprotti Black Five, it's a "Web Special Release" which is only available through the Hornby website.

 

 

In which case I will do without in protest, I just don't like what Hornby are doing by manipulating retailers and ultimately us, the customer, they should be ashamed.

[jcredfer]

10 hours ago, steve45 said:

In which case I will do without in protest, I just don't like what Hornby are doing by manipulating retailers and ultimately us, the customer, they should be ashamed.

 

I have to wonder why they have gone back to trying it over again, as they did the proper Maths and Customer reaction on that, back when they last tried it.  Voices, as evidenced, on here and in the local shops haven't changed their tune.  All that will be achieved will be a customer backlash and customers going to the very manufacturers H are trying to quash.  It's very reminiscent of an infantile tantrum, rather than anything of an improved experience for the customer base and unlikely  to benefit anyone, in the long run.

 

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, jcredfer said:

 

I have to wonder why they have gone back to trying it over again, as they did the proper Maths and Customer reaction on that, back when they last tried it.  Voices, as evidenced, on here and in the local shops haven't changed their tune.  All that will be achieved will be a customer backlash and customers going to the very manufacturers H are trying to quash.  It's very reminiscent of an infantile tantrum, rather than anything of an improved experience for the customer base and unlikely  to benefit anyone, in the long run.

 

 

TBH, I came to the conclusion some time ago that the model railway scene in general would be far healthier were Hornby to become a much less dominant force within it. A third of the overall OO market would seem sufficient to me.

 

Whether that is achieved by the growth of its competitors (new and old) or a decline in its own fortunes may be unimportant, and my estimation is that it will happen (albeit slowly) through a combination of both.  

 

Against my better instincts, I've ordered the "Web Exclusive" Caprotti Black Five, but I really hope they don't make a habit of the practice.

 

John

Edited February 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling