Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[ianmaccormac]

On 11/03/2024 at 15:36, Citadel said:

 

 

 

At least the build should be relatively quick though 🙂

Use hot water to make the supports remove more easily if you find it difficult anywhere. Usually, after a bit of time in a fairly warm tub, they will come away very easily.

Cheers, Ian in Blackpool

Edited March 12 by ianmaccormac
spell and remove photos non relevant

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, ianmaccormac said:

Use hot water to make the supports remove more easily if you find it difficult anywhere. Usually, after a bit of time in a fairly warm tub, they will come away very easily.

 

Be careful there, though. Depending on the material, you may end up with a floppy horse box. A quick twist is usually good enough to break the supports off.

[Citadel]

Spent some time on the Slaters MR All Third and one where the central compartment was converted to a lavatory:

 

 

Here's the one built as per the kit instructions:

 

 

And here's the one with the central lavatory.  Mrs Poncenby is very relieved that the MR has started to provide facilities - it's a long trip from London to Edinburgh.

 

 

 

Still got the luggage composite to complete but have to admit stole quite a few small components from the box to replace the ones dropped on the floor when completing the two above.  Need to get on my knees and look under the desk....

[magmouse]

These look really terrific - especially with the interiors. With the varied mix of coaching stock you are building up, you are going to be able to put on quite a show!

 

Nick.

[Chas Levin]

I thought for a split second that you'd modelled Mrs Poncenby actually using the facilities... but then realised not. I too was relieved...

[Citadel]

Having a bit of a break from the Slaters MR 6 wheelers, here's a True Line Models Caledonian Railway 1870 Metropolitan Horse Box.  Thank you for the advice around removing the supports, pretty painless really.

 

 

Leaning very heavily on @Dave John's excellent build in his blog:

 

 

It's certainly an interesting prototype.   Did like @Mikkel's comment - 'horseboxes tend to be elegant but restrained affairs, this one has a lot going on - a whole little town in itself!'

[Mikkel]

I do like the elevated section. Maybe it was an economy drive on the CR: Horse stacking. 🙂

[magmouse]

Is that what the Americans call a duplex?

 

Nick.

[SteamAle]

Ah! but do you know what the two small doors in the end compartment are for?

[Citadel]

6 hours ago, SteamAle said:

Ah! but do you know what the two small doors in the end compartment are for?

I was assuming dogs/hounds.  There’s quite a good discussion in the comments section of the blog post below:  

 

[Compound2632]

It's a tricomposite: horse goes first class, groom goes second class, dog goes third class.

[Compound2632]

The more I think about it (which I really shouldn't) the more I think I should have said the dog goes second and the groom goes third. I'll try to remember that for the next time there is occasion for horsebox humour.

[Adam88]

Perhaps they were used for WSC's cats, pigs and dogs?

[CKPR]

We had some discussion on here a few years ago about whether the M&CR's older type of horsebox, seen here on the left, was a rebuilt ex-Caley horsebox or another instance of Maryport works copying their neighours.

Edited March 25 by CKPR

[Dave John]

Is it possible that they just bought it from metropolitan ? 

[CKPR]

7 hours ago, Dave John said:

Is it possible that they just bought it from metropolitan ? 

It's a possibility but comparison of the drawings of both vehicles [there is an HMRS drawing of the M&CR box] indicates that the M&CR box is different from the Caley boxes in several ways, not least in having an assymetrical wheelbase. It's also simpler in it's build with much less of the finesse or detail of the Caley vehicle. Taken together, we concluded it was either a copy or a substantial rebuild. Either way, it was a pig to make in 4mm !

[Citadel]

On 23/03/2024 at 08:32, Compound2632 said:

It's a tricomposite: horse goes first class, groom goes second class, dog goes third class.

 

Have to say that comment made my day.  Anyway, here's the finished article (bar the side chains):

 

 

Must buy some CR books and see whether there are any numbers apart from 114.  You can see how I slavishly followed @Dave John's build from his blog (they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery).

 

There's a bit of a droopy dog box thing going on - did my best but from this angle do notice the roof looks a little squint.  It is better with the naked eye from normal viewing distances so doesn't really detract.  A big thanks for all the hard work that has gone into creating this kit and bringing it to market - it certainly is a fascinating prototype.  Right, now to to do some research on the M&CR version...

[WFPettigrew]

2 hours ago, CKPR said:

Taken together, we concluded it was either a copy or a substantial rebuild.

 

Given that the likes of Metro' would happily tweak dimensions of their advertised products to suit the customer (almost a bit like modern day modellers playing around with CAD to shrink or expand dimensions?!) then there is maybe a case that the M&C also bought from Metro, but requested slightly different dimensions, perhaps because they had a slightly different market in mind.  Quite why they wanted an asymmetric wheelbase though is beyond me... 

 

There is evidence of the tweaking around the various drawings for 1870s gunpowder vans produced by the likes of Metro, and the types that ran on the LNWR and FR - there isn't hard evidence where the 6 on the FR came from but they were similar but not identical to the LNWR ones, and similar but not identical to drawings in the Metro collection... 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, WFPettigrew said:

Quite why they wanted an asymmetric wheelbase though is beyond me... 

 

My only thought is that it centres the horse compartment in the wheelbase, which should give the horses the smoothest ride. People and dogs are indeed lower classes, with the rougher ride at the extremities of the vehicle.

 

Nick.

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

My only thought is that it centres the horse compartment in the wheelbase, which should give the horses the smoothest ride.

 

Of course!  Though it will still behave somewhat more oddly as a rolling vehicle especially when being propelled I would imagine.  Whatever the thinking, I  think @CKPR has done a lovely job on it, and Mike @Citadel now seems to have accepted the challenge to produce one so they can be compared and contrasted?!

 

(Though I am guessing that the "local" branding might suggest it was not allowed off M&C metals, so would not be allowed any further than Citadel station and those environs to which the M&C had running rights?  That said, this may not have been the case in Mike's earlier era?)

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

[CKPR]

5 hours ago, Citadel said:

 

 

 

   Right, now to to do some research on the M&CR version...

PM me and I'll look up the extant drawing and photos for you.

[turbos]

8 hours ago, Citadel said:

 

Have to say that comment made my day.  Anyway, here's the finished article (bar the side chains):

 

 

Must buy some CR books and see whether there are any numbers apart from 114.  You can see how I slavishly followed @Dave John's build from his blog (they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery).

You’ve done another terrific job with that kit, well done.

The Caledonian Railway Association have produced some excellent books over the years, the Carriages and the Wagons books are particularly useful for modelling, the Carriages book also has some details on WCJS carriages. My copies get regularly leafed through.

Other known numbers for the CR Metropolitan Horse Box are 11 (built in 1875) and 44 (built in 1884), they were renumbered 1813 and 1849 in 1893 and 1898 respectively.

 

Brian.

[Asterix2012]

48 minutes ago, turbos said:

You’ve done another terrific job with that kit, well done.

The Caledonian Railway Association have produced some excellent books over the years, the Carriages and the Wagons books are particularly useful for modelling, the Carriages book also has some details on WCJS carriages. My copies get regularly leafed through.

Other known numbers for the CR Metropolitan Horse Box are 11 (built in 1875) and 44 (built in 1884), they were renumbered 1813 and 1849 in 1893 and 1898 respectively.

 

Brian.

How long did these survive?

[turbos]

3 hours ago, Asterix2012 said:

How long did these survive?

Two survived into the LMS (July 1923), but not long after that.

 

Brian.

[Citadel]

Feels like quite a while, most of the recent action has been over on the Pre-Grouping, Modelling & Prototype thread.  Anyway, here's the last of the Slaters MR/MSJS 6 wheel carriages I've been building:

 

 

This is actually the second luggage composite I've built, this time though went for the MSJS livery:

 

 

 

They are lovely kits but quite time consuming as there are a myriad of small parts.  At first glance a bit expensive but the quality of the castings etc. is exceptional.  My only gripe really is the underframe, can't get this as free running as the LNWR 6 wheelers from LRM.  Anyway, here's the group photo under the footbridge at Carlisle Citadel 🙂

 

 

The passengers have been waiting so long for the layout to be finished - their fashion sense is now looking decidedly out of date!

Edited Wednesday at 19:21 by Citadel