Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Citadel]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

i'm half-way through the brake van and finding getting the axlebox / spring castings a bit of a faddle to fit so am interested to see how other people get on.

Suspect this is a bit modern for my period but couldn’t resist as full of character.

 

if it’s the rocky W-irons, white metal springs/axleboxes and fixed footboards I’ve already learned my lesson with the Ballast Brake.  Think I’ll go with Bill Bedford type individual guitar string springing of each wheel and fix the W-irons to the floor.  Might also try allowing some lateral movement of the central wheels via a sliding 2mm tube over a 1mm pinpoint axle.  Think there were some good details here on @Portchullin Tatty’s thread..  Maybe the short wheelbase won’t require this though.  Let’s see….

[Citadel]

Pressing on with the M&C carriages.  3D printing of the various vents, axle boxes etc. to finish them off is sorted thanks to the services of @BlueLightning.  The one remaining task is to sort the transfers so can get on with the final coat of varnish, glazing and interior detailing etc.

 

Have created the attached file in Adobe Illustrator which is sufficient for the three carriages I have on the go (have had to convert to .jpg to display on RMWeb so has gone a little fuzzy).  Can anyone give advice about options re: getting this printed - as mentioned earlier in the thread was hoping to use @railtec-models but have sent a couple of emails and haven't heard anything so far.  All help and advice appreciated (but would prefer to use a more 'professional' service than trying to print them myself).

 

This is the one for the teak coaches with the M&C garter and black shading to the lettering, this is my initial priority:

 

 

Also did one though for the later green/white livery as something I might attempt in the future:

 

 

The body of the lettering is gold but not a problem to render in a flat colour like the one above if this is more straightforward.  

 

Fingers crossed 🙂

Edited November 15, 2023 by Citadel

[richard i]

Try fox transfers

richard

[thetalkinlens]

I’ve used http://www.precisionlabels.com with success for custom waterslide transfers prepared in Illustrator and exported as pdf. Not sure how expensive it will be for the number of colours in your sheet it will be though.

[railtec-models]

11 hours ago, Citadel said:

Pressing on with the M&C carriages.  3D printing of the various vents, axle boxes etc. to finish them off is sorted thanks to the services of @BlueLightning.  The one remaining task is to sort the transfers so can get on with the final coat of varnish, glazing and interior detailing etc.

 

Have created the attached file in Adobe Illustrator which is sufficient for the three carriages I have on the go (have had to convert to .jpg to display on RMWeb so has gone a little fuzzy).  Can anyone give advice about options re: getting this printed - as mentioned earlier in the thread was hoping to use @railtec-models but have sent a couple of emails and haven't heard anything so far.  All help and advice appreciated (but would prefer to use a more 'professional' service than trying to print them myself).

 

This is the one for the teak coaches with the M&C garter and black shading to the lettering, this is my initial priority:

 

 

Also did one though for the later green/white livery as something I might attempt in the future:

 

 

The body of the lettering is gold but not a problem to render in a flat colour like the one above if this is more straightforward.  

 

Fingers crossed 🙂

 

Let me take a look through the inbox. It's constantly teetering either side of being full due to receiving a huge number of attachments on a daily basis, and trying to keep it beneath the limit so it can continue to send and receive is a bit like painting the Forth Bridge, as we would say when I was growing up (though I believe it may be different now).

 

It's worth keeping in mind of course that there can be a significant difference in quality (and cost) when shopping around. Transfers which are printed on a home desktop Alps printer for example will likely need cutting very close to the print in order to minimise the amount of superfluous carrier film which covers the entire sheet. They're also limited in colours and on larger transfers the join lines in the print can be seen where each colour ribbon has jumped down to the next "row" (it's approx every 10mm), all the more noticeable on multi-colour. At Railtec the aim is to offer the best of both worlds: the technology costs the same as a small house so has the professional top end quality compared to an Alps printer which you could carry down the stairs under one arm, but I also try to be realistic when it comes to cost. I don't recall there being a single quote refused in all the years, which means I should probably up the prices!

 

@Citadel if I can't locate the email then I'll PM you here.

[Citadel]

Transfers hopefully sorted - many thanks for getting in touch Steve and hope Warley goes well.  I went to my first model railway exhibition at the weekend (Workington) - what a wonderful venue and range of exhibits, certainly took lots of inspiration from the day.  Even Mrs. Citadel was impressed but maybe she is just humouring me.  What's clear though is the enormous effort that must have to go on behind the scenes to make something like this possible.

 

Anyway, on with the D17 6 wheel brake.  @Compound2632 introduced me to a new word (faddle) in relation to the underframe - can understand why.  As mentioned above realised that the clearances available to allow the W irons to rock would be fairly challenging so went with individual springing on the wheels a la Bill Bedford and left the W irons fixed.  Did involve a fair bit of filing but saved a lot of faddle down the line.

 

 

Drilled holes in the W iron carriers to take the wire and elongated the hole in the W iron that locates the pinpoint bearing.  Had to also create a corresponding slot on the inner face of the white metal axlebox casting before glueing in place,  The rectangular hole above the wheels probably not necessary in hindsight.

 

Here's the completed brake van awaiting painting.  The resin body was an absolute joy - beautiful and crisp details, minimal flash and really easy to drill the myriad of holes required.  Also liked the hole alignment jigs included with the kit.

 

 

Do like the mixed media type approach where each component is made from the optimal material.  Roof is just plonked in place for now awaiting painting and interior detailing

 

 

Furness horse box next, fancy a bit of ultramarine....

Edited November 21, 2023 by Citadel

[WFPettigrew]

4 hours ago, Citadel said:

Furness horse box next, fancy a bit of ultramarine....

😍

 

That said, the Ultramarine livery was only decided on in 1896, so is that a bit late for you?

 

And sorry no I don't know what colour they were in their first 20 years of existence before the blue livery came in.  Carriages were brown previously, or brown and buff (the difference not being defined, brown and buff may be an earlier livery) and the brown might or might not have been close to the loco "Indian Red". 

 

There is a suggestion of varnished teak, possibly pre c 1880, or possibly on only some carriages, for example inherited stock from the Whitehaven, Cleator and Egremont used in workmen's trains. 

 

If you did go with the brown, of whatever shade, the carriages at least were lined with vermillion and gold. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by WFPettigrew
Pressed save too soon

[apl31]

That reference to brown and buff was interesting I had never heard of that. Probably not applicable to a horsebox, but for information, I believe first class carriages were lake and cream in 1870s-80s. There is a photo of such a carriage at Coniston c1870.

[WFPettigrew]

2 hours ago, apl31 said:

brown and buff was interesting I had never heard of that

 

That came from an email on the Cumbrian Railways Association chatline from Guy Wilson, the Digitial Archivist, quoting past editions of the CRA Journal.

 

Guy stated:

 

"30 May 1896;      FR to paint coaches ultramarine and white instead of brown and buff"

 

He also quoted earlier sources:

 

"6 March 1880:    FR rebuilding 3rd class carriages by stripping down to frames and forming 4 compartments in place of 5; details given – painted brown externally relieved with vermillion and gold."

 

"27 May 1882:                      New FR 3rd class carriages “upholstered in good brown paint”  "

 

2 hours ago, apl31 said:

I believe first class carriages were lake and cream in 1870s-80s. There is a photo of such a carriage at Coniston c1870.

 

Yes indeed there is such a photo.

 

Alan Headech, who has done extensive research and written articles for the CRA Journal on FR carriages including the early stock, has described evidence of early Furness Railway carriage livery as "extremely sketchy". 

 

He said early panelled carriages were painted in a two colour scheme, ie, upper panels a light colour, "possibly cream" and the lower panels a dark colour, "possibly lake".  He stated that panelled carriages were provided for 1st and 2nd classes, also composites.   

 

He said 3rd class and parliamentary carriages, mostly with outside framing, were "varnished" at that time. 

 

But, as stated above, by 1880 it would appear the thirds at least were being painted brown not teak. 

 

The Locomotive Magazine of September 1897 (when the stock was midway through being repainted into the new Aslett livery) described the FR carriage livery as:

 

"The older carriages are painted chocolate, but a few are finished in varnished teak - these have a gold stripe round the panels, and the lettering is in gold, shaded with red brown. The new passenger stock has the lower panels painted dark blue, and the upper portion a very light blue, almost white, with dark blue framing and gold stripes around the windows, panels, &c. The letters and figuring are in gold with fine blue line around."

 

 

It is unclear from this whether the lining referred to in the first sentence relates to the chocolate or teak carriages.  I suspect it refers to the "chocolate" livery and could be both.  The "red brown" shading sounds suspiciously like Indian Red...!  The teak carriages could be the old former WCER carriages with outside framing that survived for many years in workmen's trains.

 

And note there is no mention here of "brown and buff".   One of the two 1896 sources must have got it wrong or at least not got it all right, and the 1880-1896 livery was either all over brown with lining for all carriages, or that first and second class carriages were brown and buff, and the thirds brown all over. 

 

Anyway, briefly back on thread. The Locomotive Magazine goes on to say:

 

"Horseboxes and carriage trucks are painted dark blue with white lining."

 

So Mike if you are going to go with ultramarine, it's white not gold lining.  And if you are going pre 1896, then as the post 1896 livery for NPCS was a cheaper version (with white not gold lining) then you could probably make a case that previously a NPCS vehicle like a horsebox might more naturaly fall into the varnished teak livery than the chocolate?  But, who will ever know the right answer?!

 

Two final references to complete the story. 

 

Firstly, an article at the time of the 1896 new livery stated it would take around three years to repaint the stock, as FR carriages were repainted once "every three years". 

 

Secondly it is known that some FR carriages were all over ultramarine in the final days of the independent company and some authors have suggested this was a wartime economy measure.  There is a source from June 1919 which states this new livery ("ultramarine blue with a lining of gold") had been applied to "8 coaches so far", because the white was getting dirty quickly due to iron ore dust.   

 

Now, with circa 300 carriages on the books in 1914 (ignoring the NPCS) that would suggest Barrow works had the capacity to repaint 100 cariages a year, or two per week - which does sound reasonable.  

 

Therefore I think the all over ultramarine livery was an introduction in 1919 rather than during the war.

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Citadel]

Many thanks for all the interesting inputs re: Furness livery - one to ponder whilst I build the horse box.  In the meantime have been busy pushing on with the M&C carriages.  Added the 3D printed details done for me by @BlueLightning from my slightly hamfisted attempts at 3D artwork.  Had a bit of a Spinal Tap Stonehenge moment but happily this was picked up 🙂.  Very happy with the service provided (no connection just a satisfied customer etc.).  When I get the transfers can varnish, glaze, fix down roof and all the other little jobs.  Excited about these carriages, effectively will have had a hand in all aspects of the finished item - the etch artwork, the 3D components, the lettering etc.  Gosh, almost counts as scratch building....

 

 

Emboldened by this got stuck into the design of 3D printed components for the 12 wheel MR 54' composite.  The MR drawing kindly shared by @Compound2632 was really useful in this respect - the draftmanship and subtle tinting makes them more of a work of art really.  

 

 

The LNWR 6 wheel brake basically completed.  As mentioned at the time not really sure how I would have created the clearances to between all the undergubbins and the sole bars/footboards to allow the W irons to rock as intended - am sure possible but it's beyond my ability.  Went with individual guitar wire springing of each pinpoint bearing leaving the W irons themselves fixed.

 

 

It's a bit of a beast and was a great kit to build - love it.  Definitely needs a guard on the verandah to add a further point of interest.

 

 

Last but certainly not least actually started on the layout itself.  Has been covered in another thread (but almost two years ago!) but having visited the Workington exhibition now feel emboldened to break ground as it were.  The room above the garage is now complete so no excuse.  Will be a steep learning curve but can hardly contain my excitement - uninformed optimism is a great thing!

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

Looking forward to the layout thread 

[Compound2632]

Some time ago (sorry haven't found the post) you were contemplating Midland Pullman cars and the challenge of lining them out. I came across this photo recently and thought you might appreciate it as "inspiration":

 

 

[Embedded link to a Facebook post.]

[magmouse]

That's not lining, that's a tattoo.

 

Nick.

[Citadel]

What a wonderful picture.  Urgh, would still like a couple of Pullman carriages - think the lining would need to be via transfers though 🙀

 

Today's challenge (apart from playing around with pieces of OSB mocking up a section of Carlisle Station (see Pre-Grouping Modelling & Prototype thread) has been drilling holes in the sides of the Furness Horse box.  They were etched from both sides so at least gave me a start but the etching hadn't made it all the way through the brass sheet.

 

 

 

Happy days....

[Portchullin Tatty]

Can I extol the virtues of a proxxon (or similar) drill press.

 

See here: https://highlandmiscellany.com/2017/02/

 

it will eventually pay for itself in reduced numbers of broken drills but it will also treble the speed you do something like this.  

 

 

[Citadel]

Ooh, Christmas….  Have always wanted a drill press.  Think Santa’s elves already sorting a set of 10” rolling bars (@Chas Levin, the discussion on your thread was the catalyst, we can have a roll off).   Can now start making my own brass roofs 🙂

Edited December 9, 2023 by Citadel

[Jol Wilkinson]

15 hours ago, Portchullin Tatty said:

Can I extol the virtues of a proxxon (or similar) drill press.

 

See here: https://highlandmiscellany.com/2017/02/

 

it will eventually pay for itself in reduced numbers of broken drills but it will also treble the speed you do something like this.  

 

 

 

Good advice. I would add that it is also worth buying decent drill bits. I buy Busch drills from Cooksongold. Not cheap but worthwhile as they are accurate, last well and being on a standard shank are readily changed over, especially if using a collet. The only breakages I get are if using a hand held drill (manual or electric) and apply too much force which invariably puts some sideways pressure on the drill bit.

[Chas Levin]

20 hours ago, Citadel said:

Ooh, Christmas….  Have always wanted a drill press.  Think Santa’s elves already sorting a set of 10” rolling bars (@Chas Levin, the discussion on your thread was the catalyst, we can have a roll off).   Can now start making my own brass roofs 🙂

Excellent: have the Elves ordered from GW Models too?

[Citadel]

6 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Excellent: have the Elves ordered from GW Models too?

Yep, gave George Watts a call using the number shared on your thread.  He sounded like a really nice chap but said he had received a sudden deluge of orders.  Said it must be the Chas Levin effect….

[Chas Levin]

14 hours ago, Citadel said:

Yep, gave George Watts a call using the number shared on your thread.  He sounded like a really nice chap but said he had received a sudden deluge of orders.  Said it must be the Chas Levin effect….

 

Not often anyone thinks of me as a trend-setter: according to my family, I'm as far from setting trends as it's possible to be...!

[Citadel]

Gosh, doesn't time fly - though have to admit the I've been a little distracted building baseboards etc. over on the Pre-Grouping - Modelling & Prototype thread.

 

Have finally finished the FR Horsebox (well, bar side chains, couplings etc. which will fit when I take it back out of storage).  

 

 

It's been through a number of livery variations.  As pointed out by @WFPettigrew the ultramarine livery only started to be introduced in May 1896 so started off trying Indian Red, Red-Brown etc. but never really got them to look right.  In my heart of hearts think I really wanted a blue horse box so out with the paint stripper - hey, it's my model railway 🙂

 

 

 

Did my best with the lining - maybe there should be a bit less (or more) but relatively happy with how it turned out - did have to tone things down a little with some weathering powder though.  Certainly highlights where I didn't manage to get the strapping straight unfortunately.  The painted wood grilles at the end were copied from a model on the Taff Vale Models website  - not really sure how prototypical this is but after drilling all those holes for sure I wanted to make a feature of them.  

 

As a kit it did put up a bit of a fight.  There's a lot of beading (bit like a thin picture frame) which ends to be cut carefully from the etch to avoid damage.  Doesn't help that the smaller components sit on the etch within the frames so a lot of tabs to clean up with a file on incredibly thin / delicate components.  Not doing this commercially though so time isn't really money - all adds to the challenge. 

 

Suspect the prototype had smaller spoked wheels - will change as appropriate (don't have any at the moment).  In terms of ride height though does look to be in the right ballpark:

 

 

Hopefully will add to the colour and theatre of Carlisle in late Victorian times

 

 

OK, now onto some experiments with IPA - Isopropanol Alcohol not India Pale Ale unfortunately....

Edited January 15 by Citadel

[WFPettigrew]

You have done a lovely job! I need to get round to the two in my stash...

[CKPR]

The FR horsebox looks very good indeed. I think I'll be following suit and embellishing mine with wooden panelling as it does bring the rather stark blue livery to life. You're certainly acting as the pacesetter and making us all up our game ! 

[Citadel]

22 hours ago, CKPR said:

The FR horsebox looks very good indeed. I think I'll be following suit and embellishing mine with wooden panelling as it does bring the rather stark blue livery to life. You're certainly acting as the pacesetter and making us all up our game ! 

 

Thank you for the kind words - I'm certainly not acting as a pacesetter in terms of building anything that actually moves!   Started thinking about laying track etc. and realise I don't have anything to test it with - better get 'moving' myself but sense another steep learning curve.

 

Just a word of warning re: the horse box.  I basically cherrypicked the bits I liked (so the wood effect doors) from someone else's build of the kit.  Have no idea whether this is actually prototypical or not.  Am sure yourself and @WFPettigrew have access to more information in this respect.  Oh, and you'll notice I cut down a 'FIRST' from my HMRS MR sheet to make the 'F R'.  Shading the wrong colour I think.

 

At the end of the last post there was a cryptic post about IPA - was trying to rescue a Slaters MR 6 wheel kit that I had partially disassembled and was languishing at the bottom of my 'to-do' box:

 

 

 It featured much earlier in the thread and @Compound2632 correctly pointed out that (1) a Luggage Third of this type wouldn't have made it as far North as Carlisle and (2) there wouldn't have been a 'MIDLAND' on the top panel and the livery is really too late for my period (the '3's' on the doors etc.).  Can live with (1) but felt that (2) needed correcting - In my hamfisted attempts to remove the transfers did a pretty good job of destroying the paint job (and then my impatience re: removing the sides/glazing did a pretty good job of destroying the rest of the kit)..  Had read somewhere that IPA was a good paintstripper that was kind to the plastic used in kits of this nature.  It did a pretty good job of shifting the acrylic varnish but didn't touch the Precision Paints enamel or the transfers.  Is there a foolproof way of stripping enamel paint off plastic?

 

To be honest removing the varnish made it a lot easier to remove the transfers - and used some fine wet and dry to recover some of the damaged sections of paintwork.  In the process now of repainting / touching it up - let's see....  Feels a bit like an episode of the repair shop (but with less skill / patience on show).

 

Edited January 16 by Citadel

[CKPR]

To remove enamel paint from plastic, the best way used to be use Modelstrip but I've not seen it on sale for a while. The other methods are overnight immersion in variously brake fluid (!), Mr Muscle type oven cleaner or, somewhat surprisingly, neat full strength Dettol and then a good scrub with an old toothbrush. Needless to say, most of these approaches need some care as they use caustic materials so rubber gloves and sealable plastic bags are definitely required [brake fluid probably needs a large glass jar].Modelstrip was a work first time approach but I've found that both oven cleaner and Dettol usually need two attempts.