Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Asterix2012]

15 hours ago, CKPR said:

Alas, no front elevation but it seems to indicate that there might be more information in The Mitchell Library in Glasgow. There's also the LMS weight diagrams for the M&CR engines that remained after 1923 but these don't show the front elevation as I've found to my cost. These used to be available from the Cumbrian Railways Association.

Mitchell library, Scottish records office maybe Strathclyde university who I think have some records 

[CKPR]

14 hours ago, apl31 said:

The weight diagrams can sometimes state the footplate width in the information below drawing.  Its a little more information to help work out other dimensions

Which is why a couple of my M&CR engines are 6" / 2mm too wide as I didn't read the weight diagrams properly and perpetuated an error from the old W.Hardin Osborne "drawings".

[T0ny]

Quote

Alas, no front elevation but it seems to indicate that there might be more information in The Mitchell Library in Glasgow. There's also the LMS weight diagrams for the M&CR engines that remained after 1923 but these don't show the front elevation as I've found to my cost. These used to be available from the Cumbrian Railways Association.

Thank you for this. The only information I have regarding actual sizes is from the BRatabase site which states that the wheel diameter is 3' 8". Anyway I shall investigate your sources.

Tony

[T0ny]

I am basing most of my work on this photo:

[Citadel]

What a wonderful loco, really look forward to seeing the end result.
 

Big change of pace at Citadel Towers as have just taken early retirement 🙂.  OK, Mrs Citadel has a list of jobs as long as my arm but hopefully also a bit more hobby time as well.  
 

Was really taken by @Chas Levin’s comments about how nice it was to do the handrails at the beginning of the build whilst the anticipation was still there rather than at the end when it was just a bit of a chore.  Made me realise that every detail no matter how small could give a real sense of satisfaction if carried out well and to the best of my abilities.

Armed with this new slightly Taoist zeal I revisited the grab handles for the MR 25’ parcels van.  Made a jig from some close grained hardwood (actually an off cut from the LRM 45’ picnic saloon roof).  The two bigger holes allow the drill shanks to be reinserted to allow the wire to be bent to the correct profile.  The smaller 0.5mm holes either side locate the wire itself.

 

 

Then annealed the wire with the kitchen flame thrower thingy and made a 90 deg bend at one end so could be inserted into one of the 0.5mm holes.  Then used needle pliers to bend it round the drill shanks:

 

 

Marked off the other end with a black felt tip then removed from the jig and added another 90 deg bend.  Then filed the front face flat and reinserted everything to check the final shape:

 

and now I have 10 identical grab rails 🙂

 

Pretty cheap evenings entertainment really.  Well it had to be, just returned from 6 days in Copenhagen and I’ve run out of money!  Seriously though @Mikkel it’s a beautiful country and you are very lucky to live there - certainly beats Moffat on a rainy Tuesday in December.

 

Right, will see if my new found enthusiasm extends to the 20 side chains I need to make next….

Edited June 12, 2023 by Citadel

[T0ny]

Quote

What a wonderful loco, really look forward to seeing the end result.

So do I.

Great work with the handrails. You can now go into mass production!

I can thoroughly recommend early retirement, although you will never have been as busy.

Tony

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, Citadel said:

What a wonderful loco, really look forward to seeing the end result.
 

Big change of pace at Citadel Towers as have just taken early retirement 🙂.  OK, Mrs Citadel has a list of jobs as long as my arm but hopefully also a bit more hobby time as well.  
 

Was really taken by @Chas Levin’s comments about how nice it was to do the handrails at the beginning of the build whilst the anticipation was still there rather than at the end when it was just a bit of a chore.  Made me realise that every detail no matter how small could give a real sense of satisfaction if carried out well and to the best of my abilities.

Armed with this new slightly Taoist zeal I revisited the grab handles for the MR 25’ parcels van.  Made a jig from some close grained hardwood (actually an off cut from the LRM 45’ picnic saloon roof).  The two bigger holes allow the drill shanks to be reinserted to allow the wire to be bent to the correct profile.  The smaller 0.5mm holes either side locate the wire itself.

 

 

Then annealed the wire with the kitchen flame thrower thingy and made a 90 deg bend at one end so could be inserted into one of the 0.5mm holes.  Then used needle pliers to bend it round the drill shanks:

 

 

Marked off the other end with a black felt tip then removed from the jig and added another 90 deg bend.  Then filed the front face flat and reinserted everything to check the final shape:

 

and now I have 10 identical grab rails 🙂

 

Pretty cheap evenings entertainment really.  Well it had to be, just returned from 6 days in Copenhagen and I’ve run out of money!  Seriously though @Mikkel it’s a beautiful country and you are very lucky to live there - certainly beats Moffat on a rainy Tuesday in December.

 

Right, will see if my new found enthusiasm extends to the 20 side chains I need to make next….

 

 

Fabulous handrail work Mike! I'm so pleased to have inspired someone - I did think as I wrote about the idea of doing detail pieces first how very unlikely it was that anyone else would agree, because I think almost every other build I've ever read about has been main body first, details afterwards (including all of mine to date of course) and it seems to be the accepted way.

 

We can start a new trend!

 

Congrats too on the early retirement! 👏 🥂

 

That's been discussed in our household too, as events where I work are looking increasingly like they may lead to quite a few of us being relieved of our positions. And as others have said, 'busy' won't be the word!

[Mikkel]

Those grab rails really are something. I was about to say that they look machine made, but that would be an insult!

 

On 12/06/2023 at 12:21, Citadel said:

 Well it had to be, just returned from 6 days in Copenhagen and I’ve run out of money!  Seriously though @Mikkel it’s a beautiful country and you are very lucky to live there - certainly beats Moffat on a rainy Tuesday in December.

 

You've been here during a very fair spell, the weather has been quite extraordinary these past weeks (unfortunately it is turning into a serious drought).

 

But come back in mid-November, when we are in the midst of the great gloom, and tell me if you still like it 😄

 

 

 

[Citadel]

Woohoo!  Finally my first brass roof.  Rolling it was a bit of a chore but got there in the end.  Bit belt and braces but added curved formers to the underneath to create a rigid unit that is a push fit onto the body (rather than a sheet of brass sitting on the top.  These were the first things I have ever cut with a piercing saw - really pushing the boat out here and dipping my toes into new territory!

 

Did start adding brackets for internal bolts to hold it in place but to be honest don't really see I'll ever need to remove it given the lack of windows, seats, passengers etc.  Once painted think will just get the superglue out (on this occasion anyway).

 

 

Also screw coupling / side chain frenzy.  Needed to go and have a lie down afterwards....  This operation was my first experience of blackening fluid.  A question, are there any out there which add the patina to areas with solder (my soldered bits remained resolutely shiny so needed to touch them up with black acrylic).

 

Onwards with lining the underframe - urgh....

Edited June 22, 2023 by Citadel

[Citadel]

Finally finished the 25' Parcels Van.  At the outset thought it would be a relatively quick one due to the lack of windows etc. but actually it put up a bit of a fight.

 

 

Replaced the rocking W-iron arrangement with ones sprung independently with guitar string - always struggle to get the appropriate clearance between the springs/axleguards/footboards with the former arrangement.

 

 

Toned the underframe lining down a little with weathering powder - prefer the slightly muted effect.

 

 

Now on with the 25' Brake and the Fruit/Milk van 🙂

[Chas Levin]

Beautiful vehicle Mike!

Fully with you on brass roofs (for long-term stability, added rigidity for the whole structure and the ability to solder fittings to them) but as you say, they can be quite a bit of work to produce.

Blackening of solder I don't think you can easily do . Apart form anything else, the various blackening products - for steel, brass and whatever else - are formulated to produce a blackening chemical reaction with those specific metals (which is why brass blackening doesn;t work quite the same way on steel and the stand gun glue doesn't work properly with brass) and solders are alloys and a pretty mixed selection of them too, depending on whether you're dealing with 70, 100, 145, 188 degree or whichever type, so even if Birchwood Casey or one of the other Blue makers decided to produce something to blacken solder, you'd need multiple types which would I suspect be uneconomical.

You must be talking about very small areas though, so I should think you'd get away with touching in with black paint, as you say; and a coat or two of matt varnish or lacquer would unite the appearance of the two types of black and prevent reflective differences showing up the combination at some viewing angles.

I've found that a very useful finishing trick, where you've used two types of similar colour and they match when viewed from some angles, but from others, with the light reflecting off them, the difference is suddenly very apparent: varnish - of any type - provides a unified reflective surface and even though you can sometimes still discern the difference beneath a newly varnished top coat, it's far less obvious and far easier to live with...

 

Edited to add: those curved grab handles are absolutely superb!!

Edited June 25, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Portchullin Tatty]

The parcels van does look very smart!

 

Solder is effectively white metal and Carrs used to do a blackener for white metal (I think).  Not sure if it is still available.  The solder will grey off quite a lot as it oxides naturally mind, so maybe just leave it?

 

Plasticard roofs are prone to going banana shaped and they get brittle over the years.  Brass is the way to go.  Blacken then before painting too, so that if there are some chips/wear it is less apparent?

 

Keep up the good work and thanks for the tips with regard to a touch of white in yellow ink; I am trying to use it to rev up my lining mojo!

 

 

[Citadel]

Once again many thanks for the kind words and the excellent tips.  Today's project was to start putting the finishing touches to the MR 25' Brake (from the Wizard 51L kit):

 

 

Still a few little details to add such as couplings and vac pipes - also still to lightly weather the under frame to tone things down a little.  To be honest my impatience got the better of me - was desperate to take a photo before the light faded.

 

 

Seeing the beginnings of quite a nice little rake here, once the Fruit/Milk Van is completed the good citizens of Carlisle will be well provided for.

 

 

The excitement made me rummage around in my cupboard and find the LNWR Parcels Van I completed last year by way of comparison:

 

 

You never know, one day I might get round to building a loco to haul all these carriages 🙂

[Citadel]

Final instalment of the trilogy - the 25' Fruit & Milk Van.  

 

 

Have seen quite a lot of discussion elsewhere about the relative merits of 3D printing versus etched construction.  For me those louvres are where the latter technique really comes into its own.  Very definitely on the page though that 3D printing has it's strengths as well - indeed with the 54' 12 wheel composite and the M&C coaches I currently have on the go I'm in desperate need of 3D printed components such as springs, axle boxes, roof furniture etc..  I have the software to design these but not really the hardware (or competence) to actually carry out the printing myself.  Did I see that certain RMWeb members can help out here by offering the printing in return for the appropriate financial arrangements - if so that would be a great help....  Was there a post from @BlueLightning along these lines?

 

Anyway, have really enjoyed building these kits - and this time when I realise when posting the photos that the roof is once again on the wrong way round I can simply unscrew it and rotate 🙂

 

 

Once again made me rummage around in the cupboard and dig out the LNWR version.  Do feel the latter looks as though it originates from an earlier era:

 

 

Right, M&C carriages next on the agenda - buoyed by a breezy walk down to the coast to Maryport earlier today.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Citadel
Coast not coat :)

[BlueLightning]

5 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Did I see that certain RMWeb members can help out here by offering the printing in return for the appropriate financial arrangements - if so that would be a great help....  Was there a post from @BlueLightning along these lines?

 

There was indeed, on the Hatton's Genesis thread IIRC. My model shop offers a 3D printing service, using an AnyCubic Photon Ultra DLP printer, which can give detail levels that are very close to injection moulding.

 

I also have an Elegoo Mars, a Mars Pro, and soon a Jupiter, meaning there is a range of printers available.

 

Printing is charged at £3 per hour print time, there are additional fees for setting up files (if needed, a pre supported STL being sent over avoids this cost) and removing supports (again optional, most people opt to remove the supports themselves)

 

Since you asked, and therefore I can advertise, the shop can be contacted on traintimestoo@gmail.com or by phone on 01323 722026 during our opening hours if you want to discuss it further and on the web here https://www.traintimesmodelshop.co.uk/

[Schooner]

Really really beautiful modelling. Dunno whether to laugh or cry...maybe I'll just cheer!

 

 

[Schooner]

8 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

on the Hatton's Genesis thread

Sorrynotsorry 😇

[Citadel]

Have been making a bit of progress with the 54' Clerestory Composite.  Lining, decals and door furniture complete:

 

 

 

Wasn't really sure about how to line out the clerestory itself but as usual Stephen @Compound2632 came up trumps with all the relevant information.  On one of the photos he shared could just about see the detail of the etched glass lights - gave them a go with the sanded acrylic plus gloss varnish I use for lavatory windows:

 

 

A little bit impressionistic but to be honest they are tiny so normal viewing distances etc. etc.  Think they add a certain extra layer of interest to the clerestory though.  Just need to work out how I'm going to construct the roof now....

 

 

Maybe the little blobby bit in the centre was a step too far but got a little carried away - will put it down to artistic licence.

 

Oh, and finally got cracking on the M&C 6 wheelers - layering up the brass to try and represent the teak panelling was a new experience for me (and sorry I took the photo upside down).

 

 

Certainly makes me appreciate the Gresley Composite of @jwealleans thread (and at least I don't have to grapple with the roof ends).

Edited July 11, 2023 by Citadel

[Asterix2012]

@Citadel what size of Rotring are you using?

[Citadel]

For the lining above use a 0.18mm pen.  This is a bit thick to be honest for the single yellow line so try to run the pen along the extreme edge of the etched detail to thin things down a little.  I have used thinner nibs in the past but find they block with alarming regularity.

 

Rotring seem to have rationalised their range and not sure that 0.18 and 0.13mm are available any more.  Just had a look at Cult Pens website (just a satisfied customer etc. etc.) and we they have a 0.18mm replacement nib for £6 reduced from over £20.  Sounds too good to be true, bought two so let’s see….

[Citadel]

Rotring nibs duly arrived, feels like a bit of a bargain really.  To get free postage needed to pimp up my basket somewhat so thought I'd buy some more inks to experiment with.  

 

 

The one I'm really interested in is the gold, interested in the opacity I get when either used neat or mixed with the white ink.  Let's see, watch this space.  

 

Have been away in Wales with in-laws, now back to trying to progress the M&C 6 wheel carriages.  Firstly the D9 composite:

 

 

And the associated under frame.  Still awaiting buffers, axle boxes etc.  Also wish I'd remembered to push through the rivet detail on the footboard supports before soldering up the solebar overlays - better get the Archers Resin Rivets out (that will teach me)....

 

 

Still quite taken by the robotic anteater thingies which allow the outer axles to swivel.  

 

In a fit of enthusiasm also started snipping things from the D10 Third and the D11 Brake Third etches.  If I'm going to start learning how to teak had better get a production line going

 

 

 

Know there are a couple of M&C modellers on this forum, any recommendations around where to source buffers, transfers etc.?  I have joined the CRA so maybe will put some feelers out with them - indeed if the carriages work out more than happy to make them available to others as appropriate.

[Citadel]

M&C D11 Brake Third progress...

 

 

Had always struggled a little to unpick the relief of panels/beading on the upper sides based on the drawings:

 

 

@SteamAle was really helpful and shared photos of the last surviving M&CR coach.  Taken at the Chasewater Valley Railway, Copyright Ron Allison.  Understand coach now in need of major restoration again, having stood outside for many years without regular attention.

 

 

The waistline panels relatively straightforward (etched overlay sitting in half etched pocket - see photo in earlier post).  Down the sides of the doors soldered lengths of wire into half etched grooves.  In hindsight the wire I used was a bit thick (0.375mm), on the next set of sides may go down a size.

 

 

All in all quite time consuming but an interesting challenge.  Only another three sides to go :)

[SteamAle]

Mike

For some reason my 'follow' disappeared for your site so I have missed out on your progress, until you mentioned me in a posting and up 'pinged' a message!

Great that you have joined the CRA. Have you joined the chat groups now you are a member? Make certain you get copies of our Journals that have articles on M&CR items in. We have had locomotives and carriages in recent years.

At present the only transfers are for Goods stock. Getting them produced for other rolling stock is on my 'to do' list. Some years ago I had everything sorted, with a manufacturer of transfers, but then he just went off the grid and I could not get back in touch with him.

The person who needs to send me contact details of a new producer keeps failing to send me a link. I'll give him another nudge.

I've not done any work in sorting out buffers for coaches but do have access to a manufacturer. CRA is building up information about carriages but it is slow going.

1st draft pow370 MARYPORT & CARLISLE 1 12Jun13.pdf

[CKPR]

In the absence of anything more suitable and because I wanted sprung buffers, I used the generic PC short tapered coach buffers on my M&C coaches. For the older style of buffers [self-contained ?] used by the M&C on both coaches and locomotives, the Stroudly / Billington LBSC  white metal buffers produced by 5&9 Models look suitable as do some MR ones that I have (possibly ex-Chowbent Models  and now available from Stevenson or Wizard Models ?). I've got an original Maryport works drawing of the older type of buffer so I've got no excuse really !

Edited August 20, 2023 by CKPR

[SteamAle]

Mike

Just a taster of what your train could look like!

Philip