Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Brassey]

I’ve used diluted Dettol with some good results both on plastic and whitemetal. 

[WFPettigrew]

Mike

 

Thank you for the vote of confidence, but actually decent photos of the key bit of the D38 FR horseboxes are not exactly plentiful. 

 

One photo that I admit is more helpful to my 1914 era than your 19th century one is this:

 

 

Embedded image from the Sankey Archive (c) Cumbria Archives. 

 

This is Ulverston station no earlier than 1911.  It might be post war - the stored Lake Side branch train in its siding beyond the double-sided platform features a further vehicle which is all over blue - it could be a passenger carriage in the post war all over blue livery but equally it could be a passenger brake van in which case the 1911 date would still work. 

 

Peeping out from the old East box is a D38 horsebox.  Note that by this time at least, the panels at the ends appear to be painted the same as the bodyside.  Also note that at some point secondary suspension has been added to the spring hangers. 

 

But quite how things were back in your day.....!?!

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[CKPR]

Those wooden panels still look nice though !

[Brassey]

13 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Mike

 

Thank you for the vote of confidence, but actually decent photos of the key bit of the D38 FR horseboxes are not exactly plentiful. 

 

One photo that I admit is more helpful to my 1914 era than your 19th century one is this:

 

 

Embedded image from the Sankey Archive (c) Cumbria Archives. 

 

This is Ulverston station no earlier than 1911.  It might be post war - the stored Lake Side branch train in its siding beyond the double-sided platform features a further vehicle which is all over blue - it could be a passenger carriage in the post war all over blue livery but equally it could be a passenger brake van in which case the 1911 date would still work. 

 

 

There are no diamonds on the LNWR wagons livery which makes it quite late. Definitely post 1912. 

[WFPettigrew]

31 minutes ago, Brassey said:

Definitely post 1912. 

 

According to "LNWR Liveries" (HMRS) the diamonds were "apparently discontinued soon after A.F. Trevithick took over as wagon superintendent at Earlestown in 1910."

 

Quite when is a bit unclear - but the book says that by an official photo dated October 1911 the diamonds had definitely gone. 

 

From this I had always taken the beginning of the "no diamonds" livery as being from sometime in 1911. 

 

But have I got this wrong?

[Winander]

@WFPettigrew Of more interest is the identity of that stunted covered wagon between the two opens.

[WFPettigrew]

15 minutes ago, Winander said:

stunted covered wagon

 

LNWR D33 roof door van, taken on the "other" side without the roof door?

 

15 minutes ago, Winander said:

Of more interest

 

Oops.  Sorry.   Yes this is a LNWR thread... 😉

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Winander said:

stunted covered wagon

 

E orchal be Nogoth.

 

[Citadel]

18 hours ago, Winander said:

Of more interest is the identity of that stunted covered wagon between the two opens.

 

Obviously the D38 Horsebox takes centre stage but I'm also putting in a vote for the FR red squirrel seats....

 

Had a go at the MR 6 wheel carriage sides last night.  Was out with the sandpaper and touched up with Precision Midland Red.  Touched up the yellow with a Rotring then spayed with satin acrylic before doing the black lining (combination of 0.18mm Rotring and Unipin Fineliner).  Also took the opportunity to change the droplight surrounds from brown to red and vice versa with the bolection mouldings.  Then realised I had run out of THIRD transfers for the doors so had to order more from the HMRS.

 

Actually found it all quite satisfying / rewarding to bring something back from the dead as it were.  Not really sure I'll be expecting a call from Jay Blades though....

 

 

Have an unopened Slaters all third ready to go - this has inspired me to get going....  Maybe will convert the centre compartment to a lavatory to give a little more interest.

[Compound2632]

45 minutes ago, Citadel said:

 Maybe will convert the centre compartment to a lavatory to give a little more interest.

 

Slaters do the centre-lavatory thirds, D494, anyway; 42 built 1889/90. The panelling was subtly different to that of the ten MSJS D493 thirds that had their centre compartments converted to lavatories in 1894, the D494 vehicles had the panel either side of the lavatory window evenly divided whereas the D493 conversions kept the beading in its original position, giving a narrow and a wide panel. None of the Midland's own D493 five-compartment thirds were so converted.

[Citadel]

Was going to base it on the following info:
 

As you say further up thread though it’s unlikely that all the glass was replaced in the centre compartment.  Was assuming the door drop light is frosted and the side panels (where the bolection has been removed) are solid.  Look OK?

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Citadel said:

As you say further up thread though it’s unlikely that all the glass was replaced in the centre compartment.  Was assuming the door drop light is frosted and the side panels (where the bolection has been removed) are solid.  Look OK?

 

Yes. Annoyingly, I can't find a good postable photo of any Clayton arc-roof carriage with a compartment converted to lavatories, but if you have it, see Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 1, fig. 90, 43 ft brake third D502 with one third class compartment converted to lavatories in 1892; and two with a first class compartment converted, fig. 93, 45 ft composite no diagram, converted in 1890, and fig. 109, 54 ft composite D507 of 1886, converted in 1892. In all cases, the beading is in the original position. These all show frosted glass in the lavatory droplight, but I think the best reference for this might be the three preserved picnic saloons - at Butterley, Sherringham, and Foxfield.

[Citadel]

Was looking at the Slaters website, their photo has the asymmetric panelling but on closer inspection it’s obviously just a Photoshop job on a 5 compartment third:

 

 

Has anyone built this kit, is this what the panelling actually looks like?  If so will just buy one rather than hacking around the kit I’ve already got….

Edited January 18 by Citadel

[Nile]

Like this:

This was taken before I fixed the lavatory layout.

[Citadel]

When I looked again at the Slaters kit I had it was actually a luggage composite - so lavatory conversion on hold at the moment. Given that I'd opened the box decided to build it - the kits are quite expensive but given the quality of the components in the box can see why.  Here's the rescued sides from the carriage above plus the new ones - hopefully on the final leg with these two:

 

 

Mentioned in the earlier post that had run out of the 'THIRD' lettering for the doors and had ordered a new sheet from the HMRS.  Had high hopes as understand there is a new printer and was hoping that some of the earlier registration issues were behind them.  Top lettering on the photo below is from the new sheet, bottom is from the old one (sorry about the scabby bit of wood I placed them on but it was all I had to hand):

 

 

The gold is nice and crisp and well defined on the new sheet but not sure about the registration of the white/red.  I don't have any books on MR livery / lettering - is there a drawing showing what this should actually look like?  If I need to tone down the red/white a little couple of dabs with a Rotring etc. should be sufficient - the picture above is a very cruel close up.

 

Have just ordered two of the 5 compartment thirds for some experimentation with lavatories, better get these finished 🙂

 

 

[Chas Levin]

That's quite a difference, between the two transfer samples, isn't it?

 

I know others with more detailed knowledge of MR practice than I have will come in here, but there's an original guide sheet of the lettering currently on the Midland Railway Study Centre's home page (with a link below the thumbnails to allow downloading of a high resolution version) and assuming that's fully accurate, I'd suggest that neither of those two HMRS samples is quite right. That being said, at 4mm and normal viewing distance, perhaps it comes down to which one looks better...

[Asterix2012]

On 26/01/2024 at 12:24, Chas Levin said:

That's quite a difference, between the two transfer samples, isn't it?

 

I know others with more detailed knowledge of MR practice than I have will come in here, but there's an original guide sheet of the lettering currently on the Midland Railway Study Centre's home page (with a link below the thumbnails to allow downloading of a high resolution version) and assuming that's fully accurate, I'd suggest that neither of those two HMRS samples is quite right. That being said, at 4mm and normal viewing distance, perhaps it comes down to which one looks better...

And even that what is right does not always look right in a small scale.

[Citadel]

Today is Slaters MR 6 Wheel carriage frenzy at Citadel Towers.  Rather than finish off the three I have in bits on my workbench couldn't resist opening the two all Thirds that came this week to join the party - wanted to have a go at converting one to the later Lavatory Third version.

 

 

Scrawked off the bolection moulding around the two centre compartment windows then opened up the aperture with a file.  Chamfered the hole so it was larger towards the inside of the coach then made a 'plug' with 0.75mm plastikard.  Gradually adjusted and whittled away the excess to make it fit the gap and sit slightly below the depth of the moulding.  Looked great with the naked eye but the camera shows a bit of further touching up I need to do.  

 

To be honest this is one example where having the full lining will actually help, don't think the join / bolection scrawling will be too visible on the finished model. 

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Citadel said:

converting one to the later Lavatory Third version.

 

A reminder that the only such conversions were the ten MSJS thirds - but that suits you! (The only Midland arc roof 6-wheel lavatory thirds were the ones built new as such, for which Slaters do a kit.) I don't believe I've ever seen a good photo of one of these conversions but going by the similar conversion of luggage composites, the beading of the door waist panel was removed, giving one long waist panel:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64271.]

 

Sorry, always making work, I am... 

[Citadel]

Before I embark on another session of scrawking do you think the conversion of the luggage composite was a bit more involved - (asymmetric double door with no window to symmetrical arrangement with the central frosted pane)?  Hence the panelling on the waist would have looked a bit odd hence it was remodelled (do notice that the new build carriages also had the long waist panel).  I was going by the photo of the G&SWR carriage in the earlier post which still seems to have the door beading.

 

Look forward to comments, will hold off on the primer!

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, Citadel said:

I was going by the photo of the G&SWR carriage in the earlier post which still seems to have the door beading.

 

Sorry, yes, you are quite right; I had forgotten that photo. I've also found a couple of photos of lavatory conversions of 54 ft carriages where the door panel was retained, though the bottom panels have been done more neatly, eliminating the door beading:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 61775.]

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64269.]

 

34 minutes ago, Citadel said:

do you think the conversion of the luggage composite was a bit more involved - (asymmetric double door with no window to symmetrical arrangement with the central frosted pane)?  Hence the panelling on the waist would have looked a bit odd hence it was remodelled (do notice that the new build carriages also had the long waist panel).

 

So yes, I agree with your reasoning here and stand corrected.

[Citadel]

It seems to have taken ages but finally got two of the MR 6 wheel carriages finished.  Slight delay is mainly due to trying to build a layout at the same time, also the fact that I got distracted and started another three...

 

These aren't strictly new builds and featured much earlier upthread - that said have done quite a lot of additional work on them as wasn't really happy with the original incarnation:

 

 

Mainly focused on getting the under frames to run sweetly, adding the finishing details etc. and most importantly correcting a number of the livery inconsistencies picked up from the original post

 

 

Suspect the luggage composite still has an issue in that the bolection mouldings around the fixed lights shouldn't be lined and should be brown in colour, also the droplight should be crimson lake.  This was a step too far though as didn't really fancy removing the glazing as essentially means that the whole carriage needs to be disassembled.  Also left this one in the MR livery, have another on the go which will do in the MSJS guise.

 

 

Quite like the fact that some of the panels have been repainted and are a subtly different shade, somehow adds to the character and the interest.

 

The luggage/brake third was a bigger job, has basically languished in my to-do pile for over 18 months.  Had to prise apart the body, remove glazing etc. and completely repaint.  This is not a really a carriage that would have featured at Carlisle but still find it very attractive.

 

 

When photographing carriages etc. I generally try to avoid direct sunlight as it creates quite sharp shadows etc.  This evening was so lovely though with the sun streaming through the window and was somewhat captivated by the beautiful crimson lake livery so couldn't resist this last photograph.  OK, the footboard is a bit warped, think it's caught on the axlebox and maybe need to tweak.

 

 

Now on with the other three, they are almost there.

 

Was planning a foray to Model Rail Scotland this weekend - need an excuse to use my recently acquired over 60's bus pass(!). It's always nice to put faces to names, if anyone is going to be up there PM me or similar as it would be great to have a chat.

[Rosie Taylor]

17 hours ago, Citadel said:

It seems to have taken ages but finally got two of the MR 6 wheel carriages finished.  Slight delay is mainly due to trying to build a layout at the same time, also the fact that I got distracted and started another three...

 

These aren't strictly new builds and featured much earlier upthread - that said have done quite a lot of additional work on them as wasn't really happy with the original incarnation:

 

 

Mainly focused on getting the under frames to run sweetly, adding the finishing details etc. and most importantly correcting a number of the livery inconsistencies picked up from the original post

 

 

Suspect the luggage composite still has an issue in that the bolection mouldings around the fixed lights shouldn't be lined and should be brown in colour, also the droplight should be crimson lake.  This was a step too far though as didn't really fancy removing the glazing as essentially means that the whole carriage needs to be disassembled.  Also left this one in the MR livery, have another on the go which will do in the MSJS guise.

 

 

Quite like the fact that some of the panels have been repainted and are a subtly different shade, somehow adds to the character and the interest.

 

The luggage/brake third was a bigger job, has basically languished in my to-do pile for over 18 months.  Had to prise apart the body, remove glazing etc. and completely repaint.  This is not a really a carriage that would have featured at Carlisle but still find it very attractive.

 

 

When photographing carriages etc. I generally try to avoid direct sunlight as it creates quite sharp shadows etc.  This evening was so lovely though with the sun streaming through the window and was somewhat captivated by the beautiful crimson lake livery so couldn't resist this last photograph.  OK, the footboard is a bit warped, think it's caught on the axlebox and maybe need to tweak.

 

 

Now on with the other three, they are almost there.

 

Was planning a foray to Model Rail Scotland this weekend - need an excuse to use my recently acquired over 60's bus pass(!). It's always nice to put faces to names, if anyone is going to be up there PM me or similar as it would be great to have a chat.

Looks brilliant - taking photos in bright daylight always shows them at their best, IMO.

 

I'll be at Model Rail Scotland but on the Friday (benefits of being self-employed!), but am quite a quiet socially awkward person so will keep my head down 😅. Hope you enjoy the show and manage to meet some other RMwebbers!

[Chas Levin]

Lovely vehicles and lovely photos Mike - I particularly like that first one, of the two coaches with the rear one less sharply focussed: it makes a very attractive composition.

[Citadel]

Flipping heck, doesn't time fly.  Am beginning to discover that building the Slaters MR 6 wheelers actually involves a fair few fiddly and intricate tasks - but at the end of the day I suppose that just adds to the enjoyment (not that it sometimes feels that way at the time....)

 

Here's the sides of the most recent two - the 5 cmpt Third and the one where I converted the central compartment into a lavatory:

 

 

The roofs certainly tax the eyesight somewhat - assume I should really be adding the gas pipes to some of my other stock....

 

 

Latest distraction is an 1870's CR horse box picked up at Model Rail Scotland.  Not looking forward to removing the supports from the axlebox / footboard detail.

 

 

At least the build should be relatively quick though 🙂