Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Citadel]

It's been a while, retired life is just too busy....  Those carriages are lovely, definitely something to aspire to.  Mine are progressing, will try to share a photo over the next couple of days.

 

In the absence of any M&C carriage lettering decals thought I'd sit down and have a bit of a play in Adobe Illustrator.  @SteamAle shared a drawing which seemed to provide an excellent starting point - it mentions the green/white stock but was wondering whether this applies to the teak livery as well.

 

Had a slightly impressionistic attempt at the MCR cypher based on a rather extreme enlargement of a badly pixellated drawing, just need to sort a crest and some numbering...   Know there are people who will read this who know far far more about transfers than me - interested in any advice.  Was looking at the Railtec website, maybe will give them a ring tomorrow.

 

 

Even though I was doing it on my Mac it was really satisfying creating the shading - think if I was born in Victorian times would have quite liked to be a signwriter....

[SteamAle]

Mike

Did I send you a copy of the article about M&CR transfers? Just had a quick look for it but not where I thought it was!

I'm busy sorting out printing of Furness Railway transfers at present and the M&CR ones are next on my list.
I've heard good things about Railtec and they are on my list to contact. My problem initially would be getting the masters drawn up ready for them to print, hevaing read through their adive, specification pages!

Philip

[railtec-models]

8 hours ago, SteamAle said:

Mike

Did I send you a copy of the article about M&CR transfers? Just had a quick look for it but not where I thought it was!

I'm busy sorting out printing of Furness Railway transfers at present and the M&CR ones are next on my list.
I've heard good things about Railtec and they are on my list to contact. My problem initially would be getting the masters drawn up ready for them to print, hevaing read through their adive, specification pages!

Philip

 

As long as you're drawing them up in true vector format then it should be ok. I do get a few "vector" files sent to me which are either a JPG simply saved as an EPS (so still a JPG and a bit like putting a Rolls Royce badge on a Volvo), or something poorly converted to vector in Photoshop. But if you're starting off in Illustrator like @Citadel then that's a very promising sign. Broadly speaking, Photoshop is great at manipulating raster images such as photographs, and Illustrator (or Inkscape which I believe is free) is best suited for creating proper artwork that graphic designers can work with.

[chuffinghell]

3 hours ago, railtec-models said:

 

As long as you're drawing them up in true vector format then it should be ok. I do get a few "vector" files sent to me which are either a JPG simply saved as an EPS (so still a JPG and a bit like putting a Rolls Royce badge on a Volvo), or something poorly converted to vector in Photoshop. But if you're starting off in Illustrator like @Citadel then that's a very promising sign. Broadly speaking, Photoshop is great at manipulating raster images such as photographs, and Illustrator (or Inkscape which I believe is free) is best suited for creating proper artwork that graphic designers can work with.

 

I'm glad someone knows what they are doing because I was with you as far as "As long as you're drawing them up" and then I got lost 😳

 

Probably cuz I is fick! 🤣

 

[Citadel]

For sure am finding learning the finer points of Adobe Illustrator a challenge, but hey being a graphic illustrator was one of the jobs I originally considered leaving university (but became an engineer instead...). It's a pretty steep learning curve when faced with something like this - it's really finding the right balance between faithfully capturing the detail and creating a slightly impressionistic version that looks best to the eye when reduced to something a few mm across.  What a crest the M&C had - am struggling though to make that hawk not look like an angry pigeon though...

 

 

Some really good further information from @SteamAle (much appreciated), sounds like the earlier teak livery carried a garter type design instead - will keep me occupied.

 

Finally managed to finish the soldering of the D10 5 Cmpt Third and the D11 Brake Third bodies / underframes:

 

 

 

All that additional beading above the waistline involved soldering indvidual pieces of wire into an etched groove - kept me out of mischief.  Have to say though that am finding it so rewarding when you start to see the final result - let's hope I don't screw up the paint job! 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, Citadel said:

 

Or, a pigeon enfler* rampant sable.

 

I'm trying to think who it is that lion reminds me of.

 

*I used an online Anglo-Norman dictionary. Now if only the Anglo-Saxons had had that on their iphones, history might have turned out differently.

[ianmaccormac]

M&C crest.svg

a vector graphic of it. Sent as a pm also. 10 min trace in Coreldraw.

Cheers, Ian in Blackpool

[Citadel]

Thanks Ian, that's really interesting and much appreciated - had started by tracing the image manually but enthusiasm waned and quickly realised that the automated options to convert photos to vector format was something I should look into.  There is similar functionality within Illustrator but resulting file sizes are bigger and visually not as good (but not sure I fully understand the program yet so not really using to its maximum potential).  If I put (say) 40 of these on a sheet plus lettering etc. guess it will create a pretty large file and suspect the fine detail won't survive the printing process (at 4mm scale at least).  

 

Took some close ups of the LNWR / MR crests applied to earlier carriages (from the HMRS range).  In 4mm scale and at normal viewing distances these look fine and was pretty happy with the result....

 

 

 

 

Is there a best practice / happy medium here between resolution and file size - or do folks just accept the large files.  I have a lot to learn in this area...

 

Just as an aside, did I see somewhere in a much earlier post that you had worked on some etches for MR Pullman carriages.  Have a hankering over something similar to go with the 54' 12 wheel composites - An 1870's Scotch Express really appeals 🙂  

 

 

[SteamAle]

Mike

Being in the middle of sorting out transfers, with another firm, I suggest that you just make one master, as a large size file and let the printer sort from there.

Bit like sending a photograph for printing. The larger the better, as they can always take away but not add.

Whatever you do, do not use the word 'sheet'. I asked for an A5 one of 4mm crests and was quoted over £300. But then the number printed would have lasted the average modeller two lieftimes!

Much easier to say "I need enough for six coaches with a spare or two". You will then just be charged for what you need without ending up with a drawer full. You can always get more printed when you need.

Happy modelling

[Citadel]

Here we go then, manually traced from the black and white illustration in Dow's book on Railway Heraldry (kindly shared by @SteamAle

 

There is a comment in the text re: colours but will need to get more expert opinion on this:

 

The other consisted of the initials MCR on a red field surrounded by an Oxford blue garter with the usual gilt edging, ornamentation and legend bearing the full title. It measures 9 1/4 in, wide × 11 1/4 in. high over black shading.

 

   

 

Being a vector image* it cam be reduced to any size without losing resolution (in the image itself, obviously the printing process may struggle though).  If this is really the correct garter am so looking forward to seeing it on the teaked coach....  But obviously first things first, need to find a way of turning this into a transfer 🙂

 

*To share as an image on RMWeb have converted it to a .jpg

Edited August 26, 2023 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

6 hours ago, Citadel said:

Here we go then, manually traced from the black and white illustration in Dow's book on Railway Heraldry (kindly shared by @SteamAle

 

 

 

Hello Mike, please forgive my ignorance of most things to do with graphics, but where you say "manually traced' from the book, do you mean you literally traced this yourself, manually - by hand?!

 

If so, my hat's off to you - but I'd also ask, aren't there easier ways to do it?

 

If I've misunderstood - or if you were being funny - please excuse me!!

[Citadel]

Hi Chas, maybe more by mouse than hand.  There’s a curved pen tool in Adobe Illustrator which can be used to trace the outline then it’s a little bit like painting by numbers to add  the colour.  There are functions which automate this (as used by Ian in the post above) but the picture in Dow was a bit fuzzy when blown up and didn’t create a very ‘clean’ image.

 

OK it’s maybe 2 - 3 hours of my life that I won’t be getting back but for sure I now fully appreciate the magnificence of the M&CR lettering in the central panel.  Did have to go on a 40 mile bike ride to recover afterwards though 🙂

Edited August 26, 2023 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

Well that's a very fine job Mike, some beautiful detail captured there. Time well spent too IMHO: I'm a firm believer in the idea that we take in far more with our eyes than we consciously realise - that when we look at a very detailed picture or model that's in a very small scale, the overall impression is very much affected - improved - by tiny details we don't realise we can see, if you know what I mean...

[Citadel]

Lordy, doesn't time fly.  I honestly thought that taking early retirement would lead to significantly more modelling time - how wrong I was....  Too many distractions, I'm exhausted - need to go back to work 🙂

Haven't been entirely idle.  Trying to bone up on 3D modelling software and and spent all last night writing instructions for the radial underframe etches (I've given John Redrup access to them so hopefully will be available as part of the LRM range in due course).

 

Anyway, to get back on track thought I'd dig out the 32' Centre Luggage Composite that featured a few pages ago.  Am trying to adapt the kit to reflect a carriage from an earlier era - so oil lamps, separate footboards, clasp brakes etc.  The brakes were the reason the build got sidelined into the 'to-do' pile as I wasn't really sure how to represent them: 

 

 

 

Quite an interesting mechanism.  Suspect the outboard actuator pivots at the brake shoe so that when the inner portion is pulled towards the centre of the carriage the brake is applied.  The pivoting means that the  outer portion moves towards the end of the carriage and actuates the inboard brake shoe via the external linkage.  Suffice to say I don't have the skill levels to make a working one in 4mm so just bodged something with etch offcuts from the scrap box!

 

 

On the LRM Cleminson underframe the end sets of wheels have outside pinpoint bearings as part of the swivelling 'truck'.  Was relatively simple to fix a representation of the clasp brake to this and allow it to swivel with the wheels.  From the outside quite happy with the result: 

 

 

Here's the body/roof plonked on top.  Just girding my loins for the application of resin rivets to the footboard supports then the underframe is ready for the printshop:

 

 

Do think it adds a certain character to the kit and look forward to seeing it finished.  In other news a slight distraction - a Clayton bogie with LNWR axle box covers and an LNWR carriage?  My next project...

 

[Amaziii]

Great work! I'm quite excited for the radial underframes too. 

 

Cheers,

Julien

[Citadel]

Pressed on with the 32' Centre Luggage Composite.  Resin rivets, curiously satisfying in a slightly masochistic way....

 

 

 

Quick spray with etch primer and Halfords Matt Black (this must be my favourite paint in the whole world - always seems to give a good finish).

 

 

Just noticed the slightly wonky oil lamp and maybe need to tone down the weathering on the underframe a bit with some dry powders

 

 

Here was the photo that gave the original inspiration - I'd judge the LRM body etch to be an exact match.

 

 

On revisiting the photograph the earlier underframe has slightly different detailing.  And just realised I really should have lined it - aargh!  Maybe I'll go and sit in a dark room and ponder my options....

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Maybe I'll go and sit in a dark room and ponder my options....

 

You know there is really only one option...

 

Are those the RailTec resin rivets? I've only used these or the Archer ones on plastic - is any surface preparation necessary for metal?

[Citadel]

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You know there is really only one option...

 

 

Guess I was putting it out there hoping that everyone would say 'no it's fine, no-one will notice' - of course you are right 🙂.  The detailing re: the spring hangers will be similar to the line drawing in the post above.  Don't really have the appetite for this at the moment as a major hatchet job (but it make me want to do another one and get this element right).  For sure though I need to paint the appropriate parts of the underframe plum and gird my loins re: the lining.   At least then feel will have done justice and channel the spirit of the earlier age.

 

The rivets are my remaining stock of Archer ones (did a bulk panic buy from Historex Agents when I heard they were being withdrawn).  On this model I'd employed styrene microstrip for the footboard supports (and Micro Sol Setting Solution), haven't really any experience trying to adhere them to metal.

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

RailTec resin rivets? I've only used these or the Archer ones on plastic - is any surface preparation necessary for metal?

 

I have had some just popping them onto nickel silver (to make a bolt securing a NS wire representing a handrail). 

Usual disclaimers (just a happy customer, no I don't know what I am doing, etc.)

[Citadel]

You were right @Compound2632, leaving the underframe unlined really wasn't an option.  To be honest was quite satisfying and now I'm really pleased I did it.  So much more in the spirit of the earlier age (as long as you can see past the spring hanger detailing that is)....

 

 

 

There are still things I need to do (such as side chains etc.) but nearly there 🙂

[Citadel]

Earlier this year was tidying up and the D162 radial carriage made a bid for freedom off the edge of the desk.  The good news was that it landed in a plastic waste basket which contained the minor explosion of parts, the bad news was that it hit the rim on the way in so some rectification required.  The other good news was that Mr Fothergill held on tight and survived the ride.

 

 

It had been sitting looking at me ever since so finally decided to repair it.  To be honest the body survived intact bar the ventilator, was very conscious though that my liberal application of cyano adhesive when fixing the roof down had caused some fogging on the insides of the windows.  It had also highlighted all the fingerprints etc. on the glazing.

 

How do people address this (apart from not using cyano in the first place that is)?  The white deposit appears almost etched into the surface and cannot be removed with water.  Somewhere had read that using Silvo/Brasso on a cotton wool bud can polish it out so tried this - worked OK but the clean-up afterwards was a major undertaking.  It's given the windows a slightly lived in appearance (from a weathering perspective actually quite effective) but at least the carriage now doesn't look as if it had been manhandled by a giant ape that had eaten a sticky bun.

 

I've also read about Johnson's Klear and the substitutes - can you simply paint this onto fogged acrylic then voila...?  If so feels too good to be true.

 

The underframe needed a dip in paint stripper and straightening / resoldering - not really too big a drama.  Guess this is one advantage of etched brass over 3D printing.  At the same time decided to channel my new found underframe lining mojo - do think it adds something extra.

 

  

 

Mr Fothergill dismounted the carriage during the window cleaning process and was a bit reluctant to travel via the LNWR again after his unfortunate experience.

 

Couple more pictures of the refurbished carriage.  Almost there re: making the radial underframe available as part of the LRM range via John Redrup 🙂

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Mr Fothergill dismounted the carriage during the window cleaning process and was a bit reluctant to travel via the LNWR again after his unfortunate experience.

 

Stick him in one of your Midland carriages.

[SteamAle]

Must be time to go back to the Maryport & Carlisle stock!

If you are coming to Workington MRE on 18 & 19 Nov then please bring them along for us to look at!

7mm stock can have a run throigh Aspatria, if I get things working !

[Chas Levin]

On 04/11/2023 at 10:26, Citadel said:

How do people address this (apart from not using cyano in the first place that is)?  The white deposit appears almost etched into the surface and cannot be removed with water.  Somewhere had read that using Silvo/Brasso on a cotton wool bud can polish it out so tried this - worked OK but the clean-up afterwards was a major undertaking.  It's given the windows a slightly lived in appearance (from a weathering perspective actually quite effective) but at least the carriage now doesn't look as if it had been manhandled by a giant ape that had eaten a sticky bun.

 

Cyano fogging is certainly a b^^gg*r!

I've found it tends to 'flow' upwards, so if the workpiece can be positioned and propped in such a way that the area being glued faces upwards without any other part of the model above it, the fumes will tend to head skywards fairly reliably.

More reliably - though less practical where a carriage interior like you have there is concerned - is to mask or shield surfaces while the cyano goes off: masking tape works fine, but even a piece of post-it, anything to provide a covering, keeps the stuff off.

 

As to dealing with it once it's there, I've tried various different varnishes but it still leaves a slightly different finish. It can be painted over perfectly well though, where that's applicable. Polishing it off I've not had success with, other than ending up going back to bare metal!

[Citadel]

On 04/11/2023 at 18:02, SteamAle said:

Must be time to go back to the Maryport & Carlisle stock!

If you are coming to Workington MRE on 18 & 19 Nov then please bring them along for us to look at!

7mm stock can have a run throigh Aspatria, if I get things working !

 

Have been mainlining Mike Trice videos to get my teaking mojo.  Still got the oil paints to go but at this stage can't help feel it's somewhere between a Geordie hen night (post the spray tanning booth) and an Oompa Loompa

 

 

 

 

Let's see - there is always paint stripper....  Was reading @Lacathedrale's thread and was taken by the comment 'Trust the process'.  Just trying to sort the 3D printed components (so axleboxes, buffers, roof lamps etc.).  Also transfers.  Hopefully @BlueLightning and @railtec-models can be of assistance here.

 

In terms of Workington Mrs. C was quite enthusiastic about a day out so hopefully will be able to make it (but my models are 4mm unfortunately).  Not really sure which day yet but always good to put faces to names. 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Citadel