Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Citadel]

4 hours ago, apl31 said:

Very nice etching of plates. You mentioned making them a finer tolerance than PPD recommended. If I am reading their recommendations correctly, it should be 0.18mm minimum. Do you know what you managed on the plates? Eg the width of the legs of the “L” for instance. On a similar subject do you know what minimum width of detail you could etch (not necessarily as a full half etch) to show an engraved line. As an example to produce a line to define “gaps” between leaf springs.

 

Agree with the advice Jol gives above - the PPD website has some nice diagrams explaining the undercut, from this you will see why thinner material allows finer detail.  I've been going down to 0.1mm in places but sense the recommendation PPD provide is to give confidence that the detail is accurately reflected on the etch and that it is reproducible between orders.  On my drawing I actually had L.N.W. but the full stops didn't make it....

 

Anyway, this week's project has been a Mousa Models MR Kirtley Brake Van - my first foray into the world of 3D printed kits.

 

 

Gave it a fairly hefty dose of black / dark grey weathering powder - maybe ended up slightly darker than I originally intended but variety is the spice of life I guess.  Need to clean the window - oh and change the number of the wagon plate (you'll recognise this one from the Slaters waterslide sheet)

 

So thoughts.  Firstly really impressed by the quality of the 3D print, particularly the detail in the underframe (still not 100% sure I've removed all the print supports....)  And the printed 3 link couplings are an absolute triumph.  Was also surprised how workable the 3D media was, no sign of brittleness at all.  Then there's all the thoughtful touches like pockets to slide the windows into and the luxury of a clip on roof.

 

My only regret is that I left the printed footboards and didn't replace with finer ones made from brass (the thought of cutting them off the print would have given me an anxiety attack though).  Really minor quibble though and if I compare the time this took compared to the LRM Ballast Brake (etched brass) there was no comparison.  Here they are together

 

 

 

The 6 wheeled Ballast Brake (Plate 386, MR Wagons Vol 2 'Allocated to Carlisle') now appeals!

Edited March 7, 2023 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Citadel said:

 

You are putting my slow progress to shame. I have a nearly finished Kirtley brake that's been sitting around for about thee years and a Ballast Brake that has been worked on fits and starts for over thirty...

Edited March 7, 2023 by Compound2632

[Citadel]

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You are putting my slow progress to shame. I have a nearly finished Kirtley brake that's been sitting around for about thee years and a Ballast Brake that has been worked on fits and starts for over thirty...

Share the pain, all those handrails on the Ballast Brake made it feel like at least 30 years in the making….

[Citadel]

Last couple of days have been occupied by the Diagram 32 Covered Goods Van from the Mousa kit

 

 

Sense it has quite a brooding malevolent presence and the single side door certainly adds interest

 

 

 

Had to cheer myself up by detailing the interior of a couple of 32' composite carriages.  

 

 

Not sure I'd exactly call the goods wagon attractive but I sure can't get enough of the carriage livery (evening sunshine in Moffat so a bit of a yellow tinge to the photos) 🙂

Edited March 11, 2023 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Last couple of days have been occupied by the Diagram 32 Covered Goods Van from the Mousa kit

 

Sense it has quite a brooding malevolent presence and the single side door certainly adds interest

 

Oh come on, it's a sweetie!

 

What surprises me, at your work rate, is that it took you two days! I've scarcely encountered a simpler wagon kit.

[Citadel]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Oh come on, it's a sweetie!

 

On reflection you are right, it's growing on me.  It was just the greyness and the lack of markings etc. - almost a stealth weapon....

 

Last night's project was to put the finishing touches to the 32' Centre Luggage Composite (from the LRM kit).  

 

 

It's longer, lower and sleeker than its 30' 1" brethren.  Quite long overhangs so will be interested to see how it runs.

 

 

Putting it up against one of the later 30 ft carriages you certainly see the lower sides and the squatter roof profile

 

 

The other 32’ body in the previous post is destined to be a representation of an earlier version with oil lamps, individual upper footboards, clasp brakes etc.  95% there now but some further mods required to the underframe.  Can’t quite get my head round how to incorporate the clasp brakes on the Cleminson underframe but will find a way, need to stop putting this off…

Edited March 11, 2023 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Citadel said:

On reflection you are right, it's growing on me.  It was just the greyness and the lack of markings etc. - almost a stealth weapon....

 

Diamonds are a LNWR wagon modeller's best friend.

 

3 hours ago, Citadel said:

sleeker

 

That I like!

[Citadel]

On 23/12/2022 at 23:29, CKPR said:

I suppose I could find room for a third rake... 

 

Had a bit of a M&CR underframe day, largely finished the D11 Brake Third - the Adobe Illustrator file becomes reality.  Quite distinctive design but the four separate lower footboards tried my patience and singed my fingers somewhat.  

 

 

Used a Cleminson type arrangement, will use inside bearings to give the articulation/clearance.  Had toyed with the idea of the sliding central axle as the wheelbase is pretty short to be honest, definitely something for next time (really would prefer pinpoint bearings).  There's something about the photo below that reminds me of a pair of robotic anteaters....

 

 

Not really sure that I need both a Cleminson arrangement plus the guitar wire springing but hey, belt and braces.  You'll spot the lamp irons, lost the will to live re: soldering them to the buffer beams - if only I had a resistance soldering unit....  Now need to think about axle boxes and buffers.

 

In other news, 42' glazing and interior detailing frenzy ahoy:

 

 

Think I'll try to find something else to distract me!

[Chas Levin]

On 12/03/2023 at 18:25, Citadel said:

There's something about the photo below that reminds me of a pair of robotic anteaters....

 

How funny - I thought exactly the same thing when I built my first Brassmasters Cleminson: great minds...!

On 12/03/2023 at 18:25, Citadel said:

In other news, 42' glazing and interior detailing frenzy ahoy:

 

 

Fabulous photo, almost like a piece of abstract art!!

[Citadel]

I've always liked the concept of fettling away debugging a gnarly inside motion or suchlike.  Not sure I've yet graduated to this level given my travails with the 6 wheel bogies am building for the 54' MR clerestory.  Here's the exploded set of parts:

 

 

 

The wheels run in pinpoint bearings with individual springing via guitar wire.  Also as an experiment thought I'd attempt a sliding central axle - sure it's not really necessary given the wheelbase of the bogie but wanted the experience and I'm a glutton for punishment.  First iteration went together really well albeit with some filing/reaming etc. to get everything working smoothly.  Then I came to fit the brakes and realised I hadn't left myself enough clearance - aargh!  A number of the official drawings don't show brake detail but it is apparent in photos and present on the drawing below from Lacy & Dow Vol 1:

 

 

So had to remove the ends and extend (the neatness of the soldering is never the same again...  Anyway, here's what I ended up with:

 

 

Think one of my ends has drooped a little when I was adjusting the brake clearances with pliers - need to rectify but as normal only spot when I post the photo on RMWeb.  Need also to reapply the rivet detail to the bogie sideframes (what I've done on the etch came out a little weedy, will have to get the Archers transfers out.  Finally haven't fitted the tie rod or the connector between the clasp brakes yet, give that am still in the process of putting wheels in and out felt they were a little bit fragile.

 

Now the sliding central axle.  Used 2mm od brass tube and 1mm od nickel silver rod from Albion Alloys and formed the pinpoint ends with a file and a Dremel.  

 

 

Can I say that fitting these into the pinpoint bearings was one of the most frustrating experiences I've had for a while.  Filed slots in the bottoms of the pinpoint bearing to aid clearance but the combination of trying to hold the guitar wire springy bits in place whilst applying some sideways force to slightly splay open the frame was a complete pain.  Realise now that normally when you fit a set of wheels the pinpoint axle is fixed to them so you can push one end into the bearing and then clip the other in place.  With the sliding axle this didn't happen, it just kept misbehaving - not helped by the fact that was in the garage and it was -2 C so had cold fingers.  Not really sure I'm cut out for this fettling lark after all....

 

Need to do sone 3D printing re: axleboxes, spring details etc.  Is anyone aware of anything commercially available or equally if I rendered the parts could someone print them - am happy to do a good deed in return (or pay cash...).  PM me if you can help.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

I'm aware I did promise you some information on Midland Scotch Joint Stock carriages and formations of the 80s and 90s... But anyway, those bogies will come in handy for the MSJS non-clerestory 54 ft composites too.

[Citadel]

On 16/03/2023 at 10:44, Compound2632 said:

I'm aware I did promise you some information on Midland Scotch Joint Stock carriages and formations of the 80s and 90s... But anyway, those bogies will come in handy for the MSJS non-clerestory 54 ft composites too.

 

Really appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and the time you must spend on this.  I'm not really a rivet counter at heart but definitely get sucked into the social and engineering history side of things.  An example here is that finding posts about the sorts of goods carried by open wagons fascinating - 12 months ago would have just filled them all with coal....  Anyway, spotted this photo showing an official posed photograph of a typical MR Scotch Express in the last decade of the 19th Century, assume though the Spinner wouldn't have found it's way as far North as Carlisle.  Photo credit is BR, hopefully no copyright issues - if there are will remove it. 

 

 

Spurred on by this got stuck into the 54' underframe.  There was a conversation on a previous page about the wisdom of a long continuous half etch versus a more 'perforated approach when using 0.4mm NS.  Had used the former on the etch - filed a deeper vee with a triangular file and gave it a couple of scrawks with the back of a Stanley blade.  Went OK for the side frames themselves but the toe-boards on the lower footsteps was a different matter altogether - definitely perforations and fill with solder here next time,  easier to rectify I guess when you are viewing the inside of the angle.....

 

 

On the drawings there is a very obvious checkerboard type anti-slip pattern to the individual upper footboards - gave it a go.  With the naked eye actually gives a pretty good effect and hopefully will give a nice effect after weathering.

 

 

Now on with the body - this imagine this weekend will mainly be spent fiddling about with bolection mouldings:

 

 

In other news the M&C underframe is finished, just waiting for the body etch to arrive:

 

 

It's got a Cleminson underframe.  Do see benefits re: a tighter turning circle due to the way the outer sets of wheels pivot to follow the track.  Am also getting better at dealing with the inside bearings - put some 2mm i.d. washers on the etch to ensure that there was clearance between the wheel rims and the metalwork:

 

 

 

Lastly and definitely leastly tidied the workshop and my D162 radial carriage made a bid for freedom off the edge of the desk.  The good news is that it landed in a plastic waste basket which contained the minor explosion of parts, the bad news is that it hit the rim on the way in so some rectification required.  The other good news is that Mr Fothergill held on tight and survived the ride.

 

 

That will teach me to tidy up!

Edited March 18, 2023 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

46 minutes ago, Citadel said:

 Anyway, spotted this photo showing an official posed photograph of a typical MR Scotch Express in the last decade of the 19th Century, assume though the Spinner wouldn't have found it's way as far North as Carlisle.  Photo credit is BR, hopefully no copyright issues - if there are will remove it. 

 

 

Your photo is a Derby Official, DY1953, so the original will be in the NRM collection. There's a copy in the Derby Registers section of the MRS website: 

https://www.midlandrailway.org.uk/derby-registers/DY1953

where the Creative Commons license is quoted. It's also reproduced in Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 fig. 612.

 

Lacy & Dow's caption can be expanded upon a bit, largely from their text. The photo is a posed view of the afternoon London-Glasgow express introduced in July 1893, with the new Midland & South Western Joint Stock dining carriages built for that service. The northbound train left St Pancras at 1:30 pm (soon changed to 2:10 pm), making what was then the longest non-stop run in the country, to Nottingham, 124 miles - that's the leg on which the spinner would be employed. There had been a decline in passenger numbers by the Midland Scotch expresses; it was hoped that by omitting the Normanton dining stop some traffic could be won back - West Coast 2pm 'Corridor' dining train started running in the same year.

 

The make-up of the train is:

• Midland D502 43 ft brake-third No. 1702, one of 29 altered in 1892 to provide a pair of lavatories in place of one compartment - see Lacy & Dow Vol. 1 p. 85 and fig. 90.
• MSJS D561 31 ft composite No. 43, with the luggage compartment converted to a pair of lavatories - either one of two converted in 1889 or an unknown number converted in 1891.
• MSJS 31 ft luggage composite No. 36, as built with luggage compartment, but, like the preceding two carriages, converted from the original oil lighting to oil-gas lighting.
• MSWJS D562 60 ft third-class dining carriage, brand new.
• MSWJS D440 60 ft first-class dining carriage, also brand new. As built, these three pairs of dining carriages had a gangway connection between them, connecting the kitchen of the first with the pantry of the third; when corridor carriages were introduced for the Scotch Expresses in 1899, they had gangways added at the outer ends. (One of the firsts was a Midland, rather than Joint Stock, vehicle.) As they ran for 6 years without any means of access from the rest of the train, they established the Midland tradition of "all the way" dining; i.e. a passenger would book a seat in the dining car for the whole journey. this kept train weight down, compared to the West Coast set-up, where, I believe, it was always the case that passengers were called from their compartments to a dining saloon sitting.
• MSJS 54 ft composite of 1879, note the Pullman-type bogies of the sort you are making; as far as I can work out none of these were ever given lavatories, though in 1894 three of the ten were converted to provide additional first class dining, running in pairs with the three MSWJS D558 60 ft composite dining carriages on the morning Scotch express.
• MSJS D529 25 ft passenger brake van of 1875.

This is a posed photo so it's a question to what extent it represents the day-to-day formation of the train. However, a photo of the up train at Skipton, taken sometime between July 1893 and mid-1899, shows, behind a Johnson 2-4-0, the D502 bogie third brake with lavatories followed by the 60 ft third and first class dining carriages, the rest of the train being out of the picture.

 

The 1893/4 dining carriages only ran on the Glasgow trains and hence were Midland & South western Joint Stock, unlike the Midland Scotch Joint Stock which was owned three ways, with the North British having their share. The London - Edinburgh trains continued to use former Pullman parlour cars converted to dining carriages. Another posed view, in Chaddesdon Sidings, c. 1894, shows such a train:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64304, DY4281.]

 

This is also in Lacy & Dow Vol. 2, fig. 606, where it is said to be all MSJS except for the ex-Pullman; for once Homer nods: they're Midland vehicles (except possibly the brakes):

• D529 25 ft passenger brake van
• D513 45 ft composite
• D507A 54 ft composite with one compartment converted to lavatories
• ex-Pullman dining carriage
• D507A ditto
• D513
• D529

There are a couple of other photos from the mid-90s that show similar formations and hence are probably Edinburgh expresses. 

[Coal Tank]

Hi Mike, the twevle wheeler is looking great. (si does everything else

[Chas Levin]

Hello Mike, I was looking through a 1954 booklet from the British Transport Commission called 'Popular Carriage' today (in search of informaation about tumblehomes and turnunders!) and came across this photo:

 

 

Stephen (@Compound2632) suggested that as there's evidently a clerestory, and given the 1875 date, it has to be a third class compartment from a 54 ft composite like the ones you're making, so I thought you might find it of interest if you haven't seen it before.

 

Stephen also wondered how it was taken, since as he pointed out "we seem to be seeing the ends of the seats" and he wondered whether it might be a mock-up: what do you think? Perhaps it could have been taken during restoration work, when side panels were removed?

[magmouse]

3 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Stephen also wondered how it was taken, since as he pointed out "we seem to be seeing the ends of the seats" and he wondered whether it might be a mock-up: what do you think? Perhaps it could have been taken during restoration work, when side panels were removed?

We can also see up inside the clerestory, a view which one would expect to be partly blocked by the near side of the clerestory. Also, the seats appear not to be the full width - if you look at the end of the right hand seat, and follow the line up to the roof, you seem to end up inside the clerestory. I think it’s a mock-up, or at least the inside of a carriage that has been customised for demonstration / photographic purposes. 
 

Perhaps it was made for an exhibition? There was no World’s Fair in the UK in 1875, but there was the Fourth Annual International Exhibition the year before in London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world's_fairs).

[Compound2632]

It is a curiosity. Compare a couple of undoubtedly genuine official photos of non-corridor compartment interiors, presumably taken with the camera in the doorway, or a little back from it. First a third class compartment of D516 6-wheel composite No. 901 of 1888:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 64105.]

 

And for an example of a clerestory roof, a first class compartment of a Bain non-corridor composite of 1906:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre item 88-P1/73.]

 

In the Popular Carriage photo, not only do we see the seat ends, but the luggage racks stop short at two bays. The whole thing looks like a film set, though not quite as crude as this one:

 

 

Screen grab from The Kiss in the Tunnel, Riley Brothers for Bamforth (1899)

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-kiss-in-the-tunnel-1899-online-0

(Some good footage of Midland local passenger trains going in and coming out of Esholt Tunnel on the Guiseley - Shipley line.)

[Compound2632]

And that upholstery does have rather a fifties look, to my eye!

 

According to this listing, the author of the booklet was none other than C. Hamilton Ellis. He certainly new his stuff when it came to Midland carriages.

 

The listing says 20 illustrations; are there any other similar?

 

Was there a "history of transport" exhibit at the Festival of Britain?

 

There was an exhibition 'Popular Carriage' at Euston in April 1954:

https://www.alamy.com/apr-04-1954-popular-carriage-exhibition-at-euston-station-the-queen-image69288093.html.

 

Getting closer.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Incidentally, if you watch the film, you'll see the train goes into the tunnel pulled by a 0-4-4T and comes out behind a 4-4-0. (The carriage sets are different too, but that's another story.) This was one of the very earliest films not to be a single take but to be made by splicing together several pieces of film. No sooner had editing been invented, there arose the continuity error!

[Citadel]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There was an exhibition 'Popular Carriage' at Euston in April 1954:

https://www.alamy.com/apr-04-1954-popular-carriage-exhibition-at-euston-station-the-queen-image69288093.html.

 

Getting closer.

Think  you’ve cracked the mystery.  Looks like the booklet was the guide to the exhibition - see link below

https://machorne.wordpress.com/2017/08/11/britains-national-railway-museum-part-2/

 

There’s another picture on Alamy showing a interior mock-up of a GWR royal carriage from 1874 at the event.  Suspect the photo above has similar provenance.  Anyway, fascinating…

Edited March 19, 2023 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

On 18/03/2023 at 22:35, Compound2632 said:

And that upholstery does have rather a fifties look, to my eye!

 

According to this listing, the author of the booklet was none other than C. Hamilton Ellis. He certainly new his stuff when it came to Midland carriages.

 

The listing says 20 illustrations; are there any other similar?

 

Was there a "history of transport" exhibit at the Festival of Britain?

 

There was an exhibition 'Popular Carriage' at Euston in April 1954:

https://www.alamy.com/apr-04-1954-popular-carriage-exhibition-at-euston-station-the-queen-image69288093.html.

 

Getting closer.

 

On 18/03/2023 at 23:40, Citadel said:

Think  you’ve cracked the mystery.  Looks like the booklet was the guide to the exhibition - see link below

https://machorne.wordpress.com/2017/08/11/britains-national-railway-museum-part-2/

 

There’s another picture on Alamy showing a interior mock-up of a GWR royal carriage from 1874 at the event.  Suspect the photo above has similar provenance.  Anyway, fascinating…

 

Well you've all been commendably quick off the mark! You're right about the booklet, but I must admit I hadn't traced it's origins to being connected with the exhibition and looking through it again now, it doesn't actually mention that exhibition anywhere in the text. I took it to be what it appears to be at first reading, a small potted history of the development of carriage design, from stage coaches, through railways to buses and I'd been leafing through it again as part of some research into the early use of tumblehomes and turnunders (neither of which features it mentions):

 

 

None of the other illustrations show anything really similar - they're examples of plates of early stage coaches, a few railway carriages and some early and contemporary buses. There's a nice drawing of an early US Pullman interior with passengers but the only other carriage interior is a much later BR one, another slightly puzzling photo as there are clearly real passengers seated but after this discussion and the establishing of the fact that the Midland one is a mock-up (so well spotted by Stephen!) I suspect the BR one may be too.

 

On 18/03/2023 at 22:46, Compound2632 said:

Incidentally, if you watch the film, you'll see the train goes into the tunnel pulled by a 0-4-4T and comes out behind a 4-4-0. (The carriage sets are different too, but that's another story.) This was one of the very earliest films not to be a single take but to be made by splicing together several pieces of film. No sooner had editing been invented, there arose the continuity error!

 

This film - along with many others of similar vintage - is on a superb DVD called "Trains from the arc", hosted by the wonderful John Huntley (https://www.videoscene.co.uk/trains-from-the-arc-volumes-1-2-and-3) which I thoroughly recommend to anyone interested in early railway film footage. The 'Volumes 1, 2 & 3' relates to the material's original appearance on 3 VHS tapes and this DVD contains all three parts.

 

Anyway, apologies Mike for diverting your modelling thread!

Edited March 20, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

This film - along with many others of similar vintage - is on a superb DVD called "Trains from the arc", hosted by the wonderful John Huntley (https://www.videoscene.co.uk/trains-from-the-arc-volumes-1-2-and-3) which I thoroughly recommend to anyone interested in early railway film footage. 

 

Indeed, appears on the cover!

[Citadel]

21 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Anyway, apologies Mike for diverting your modelling thread!

 

Not a problem, was an interesting diversion - anything the leads to The Kiss in the Tunnel can't be bad can it...

 

Anyway, distracted me from bolection mouldings.  Had agonised about how to represent these on an etched side as you run out of layers to give the necessary relief.  Had thought about wire but in the end put them on the etch -  to give them some support / save space put a door ventilator in the centre (see picture in earlier post).  

 

 

 

The ventilator provided a really convenient sprung and relatively well insulated finger rest to hold the bolection down into it's half-etched pocket when soldering it in from the reverse - how lucky was that.  OK, the back isn't so pretty (my soldering skills are still developing) but once again the ventilator helped me out.  Put the iron on the half etched web and capillary action / flux pulled the solder into the joint around the window - from the outside looks a lot neater than if I'd tried to tun the iron around the edge of the window itself. 

 

 

Additional bonus was that when I came to cut away the ventilator the half etched web was aways really securely fastened to the coach side so I didn't damage/distort the metal with the file.  Some evenings turn out better than expected.  Here's the finished result:

 

 

 

A question, what is the best undercoat to use below Precision Paints Crimson Lake enamel.  I've had some bad experiences with Halfords Red Oxide and Red Primer rattle cans, don't seem to get a nice flat finish and sometimes sense there is a slight reaction when the enamel is sprayed on top.  Know I should be using cellulose, is this the time to make the switch?

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, Citadel said:

 

I've just been having the most awful conniptions but I think it's all right and I'm recovering...

 

I think the above photo has somehow been mirrored since all your other photos show the hinges correctly on the left. But it wasn't that, it was the luggage compartment doors. I realised that both the good photos show the same side of a carriage, with the luggage compartment towards the right-hand end, with the "ordinary" door on the left and the narrow fixed light door on the right:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64315.]

 

I was in sudden doubt about the arrangement of the luggage doors on the other side - was it the same, or was the droplight door hung with its hinges on the right, so that the pairs of doors on opposite sides were opposite each other, as you have made it?

 

I recovered when I looked at the drawing - I should have known better than to worry that you'd got this wrong. The drawing shows the other side:

 

 

[Compressed crop from a scan of a lousy microfiche image of MRSC 88-D0018, MR C&W Drg. 174.]

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Compound2632

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

a suggestion for future coach designs. A couple of holes through the vent locations on the sides makes it easier to solder the the half etched vent in place  from the back.

 

Re cellulose, yes, start using it but you may need slightly warmer weather (ventilation is important). Get a good quality thinner and don't spray in high humidity conditions.

 

Jol

Edited March 20, 2023 by Jol Wilkinson
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