Van Types

[sulzer71]

Afternoon all 

 

I was wondering if anyone could assist with a list of what van types were to be seen in Scotland , more specifically the Far North/Highlands in the 1960s/1970s? , I'm talking mainly about the bauxite 10/12t? ones as I see many pictures of trains that have a good old mixture of different types but my knowledge of any kind of stock is limited even with an increasing collection of books as my interest when younger was solely locos . As I've decided to go down the EM route now I would like to buy some kits to build as a starting point as well as pick up RTR versions where possible 

 

Tia

 

Dave 

[The Johnster]

More or less any of the BR bauxite liveried vans are suitable for Scotland in the 60s and 70s, as they were very largely 'pool' vehicles that got everywhere.  A minor livery difference was being introduced over this period so it is fine to have some of them in the 'original' lettering and numbering style and some in the 'boxed' number style (you'll see what this is when you look at the models in calalogues and photos of the real thing).  For this period the majority, I'd say about 75%, of the vans in general merchandise traffic are going to be the BR standard type, developed from the GW design but with corrugated steel ends.  The remainding 25% would be LMS design sliding door types, Southern Railway designed 'Ashfords' (I'll come back to these), LNER sliding door types, and a few GW, distinguished from the BR standard by the planked ends with double ventilators.  Couplings will be screw or instanter.

 

The Ashfords were the standard Southern Railway van, developed from an SECR type (no sh*t, Sherlock), and were adoped by the Ministry of Supply during the war as the national standard; many thousands were built for the other big 4 railways as well as the Southern during the war years.  The reason was to do with their unusual planking, originally adopted to maximise the use of tree trunks, and that Ashford works had a large stock of pre-cut timber at the outbreak of the war that was no good for anything else that had to be used up.  Some of these were still in service in the 70s, mostly but not exclusively ex LMS with M prefix numbers.

 

There were also the BR and ex GW 'shocvans', and the BR 'Vanwide' and 'Palvan' types, the latter two being more likely to be in circuit traffic and not in pool use.  The other vans can of course be in circuit workings, but are less exclusive to it. 

 

Pool means vans in general merchandise traffic, which during your period was mostly between the larger NCL goods depots that were still open, but they could be routed to private sidings and other types of traffic as well.  Circuit working is rakes of vehicles diagrammed for specific traffics, and will usually originate from and terminate at factories, cement works, and so on.

 

On top of this there are vans for specific types of traffic, and by your period these were tending to migrate into circuit working as well.  These would be the likes of the white and blue liveried unventilated insulated vans used for food and sometimes fish traffic, and steam heated banana vans.  Vans with end doors such as GW 'Mogo' were becoming rare beasts.  There were also cattle vans still in service until the early 70s, after which some were used as 'Ale' vans.   

 

There was nothing particularly special about the Far North or Highland lines in terms of the vehicles that ran over them during the 60s or 70s, but the workings were perhaps more likely to be of tail traffic on passenger trains than in most other places.  Booked goods workings ran as well of course.  Post 1967, this might have lessened as vehicles with 10' or less wheelbase were restricted to 45mph running in the wake of the Thirsk accident that destroyed DP2.  Goods vehicles as tail traffic on passenger trains must be 'XP' rated.  All bauxite BR liveried vehicles were vacuum brake or at least 'piped through'; the latter could not be marshalled as one of the last two vehicles at the tail end of a train.  Vacuum fitted vans and wagons were therefore provided with brackets for tail lamps.  Following the single manning agreement with the unions in 1969, fully fitted freight trains could run without guards' brake vans, the guard riding in the rear cab of the loco (quite often the driver instructed him to ride in the front cab).  A guard's brake van on a fully fitted freight train carries a single red tail lamp and no side lamps.

 

You would see fitted vans in both fully fitted and partly fitted goods trains, in the case of partly fitted (Class 7 or 8) trains usually marshalled behind the locomotive with the vacuum brakes connected so that sufficient 'brake force' was available to the driver (this was all set out in the guard's 'load book').  The unfitted grey livieried vehicles, mostly minerals and maybe a bogie bolster, would be marshalled towards the rear with a goods brake van behind them.  So, a Class 6 train does not normally need a brake van after 1969 unless there are specific operational reasons that specify it (and bear in mind that there are nuclear power stations served by the Far North line), but classes 7, 8, or 9 (completely unfitted) do, but you don't need to worry about class 9 as there are none in your area at this period.  There were fitted mineral wagons in bauxite livery, but these were not XP rated and could not run as tail traffic on passenger trains; they were not given tail lamp brackets.

 

To start you off, most of the types I have mentioned above are available from Bachmann and as kits from Peco Parkside, with some from Hornby and Dapol.  There are some models that I would avoid, due to poor adherence to scale dimensions, and here I would mention the Bachmann LMS sliding door van (Dapol and Parkside are much better) and LMS cattle van.  Avoid Hornby or Dapol 16ton minerals, which are on the wrong wheelbase and have stretched bodies to fit it.  As you will be replacing any RTR chassis or at least converting it to EM, a matter I know little of and cannot help you with, I would suggest sourcing your RTR vans, especially the relatively expensive Bachmanns, from the 'Bay and similar outlets.

 

Parkside kits are almost 'shake the box' easy, and very good value for the money.  I can also unreseverdly recommend Cambridge Custom Transfers; in both cases as a satisfied customer with no connnections to the companies, simply steering you in the direction of what you will be needing.

 

This is a general overview, not to be taken as absolute instruction, and more specific information will help you create a better layout.  I hope it is of some use to you.

Edited March 11, 2022 by The Johnster

[Aire Head]

In terms of availability there are limited options for LMS type vans for this period. You have the old Ratio (now Parkside) LMS van which is create a version which was originally unfitted but many were converted by BR to be fitted with Vacuum brakes and the kit has the option to be built as thus. You can also use the Parkside PA16 chassis to build a fitted when built van.

 

Airfix (now available from Dapol) do a LMS type van which was actually built by BR. With those you are best throwing away the chassis and again using a Parkside PA16 chassis.

 

Finally you can create an LMS Plywood Van using the Parkside Fruit Van kit however there is quite a bit of kit bashing to be done. You will also need a Ratio (now Parkside) LMS van as the end of the plywood van are incorrect. By taking the end of the regular van and the sides of the fruit van (these will need to be extended in height using Plasticard you get a decent representation of the LMS Plywood vans.

 

Also don't do what I did and forget to remove the external brackets for the internal shelves off the side of the fruit van parts.

In terms of availability there are limited options for LMS type vans for this period. You have the old Ratio (now Parkside) LMS van which is create a version which was originally unfitted but many were converted by BR to be fitted with Vacuum brakes and the kit has the option to be built as thus. You can also use the Parkside PA16 chassis to build a fitted when built van.

 

Airfix (now available from Dapol) do a LMS type van which was actually built by BR. With those you are best throwing away the chassis and again using a Parkside PA16 chassis.

 

You can create an LMS Plywood Van using the Parkside Fruit Van kit however there is quite a bit of kit bashing to be done. You will also need a Ratio (now Parkside) LMS van as the end of the plywood van are incorrect. By taking the end of the regular van and the sides of the fruit van (these will need to be extended in height using Plasticard you get a decent representation of the LMS Plywood vans.

 

You can also bash together older types of van by using Cambrian/Ratio/Parkside parts to make D1812/1814/D1830 vans but these conversions are more involved but again helps to create some more variety amongst your vans.

 

Also don't do what I did and forget to remove the external brackets for the internal shelves off the side of the fruit van parts.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Aire Head

[Steamport Southport]

Have a look at Paul Bartlett's website.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagons

 

Many of the interesting wagons on that website are 1970s vans. Some are in departmental service but that was mostly just an addition of a number prefix (DB/ADB) and minor livery changes.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcovmerch

 

 

 

Jason

[41516]

On 11/03/2022 at 21:57, Aire Head said:

Airfix (now available from Dapol) do a LMS type van which was actually built by BR. With those you are best throwing away the chassis and again using a Parkside PA16 chassis.

 

Finally you can create an LMS Plywood Van using the Parkside Fruit Van kit however there is quite a bit of kit bashing to be done. You will also need a Ratio (now Parkside) LMS van as the end of the plywood van are incorrect. By taking the end of the regular van and the sides of the fruit van (these will need to be extended in height using Plasticard you get a decent representation of the LMS Plywood vans.

 

Alternatively, pick up an unpainted Dapol body, carefully remove the sides and replace with those from the fruit van kit - same result, correctly profiled roof and ends for a LMS van (Fruit van is BR profile, not as tall with a different arc).

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by 41516
Restored picture

[The Bigbee Line]

Good morning

 

I spend many hours 'wagon spotting'.  Looking in the area that I model.  Here is a 1963 image.  Big thanks to John Law.

 

It shows:

 

B726119 branded as a 12T SHOCK with 'Empty to xxxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx' (more research needed on that one needed.  Fitted with Screw Couplings and low vacuum pipes.

 

B486874 just shown as 13T, with Instanter Couplings and low vacuum pipes.

 

It would be nice to have a facility to share, maybe a Facebook page.  Care needs to be taken to avoid copyright issues.  Most image posters are OK with re-posting with credits etc.  If anyone is interested in the Facebook page, let me know.

 

 

[Ben Alder]

FB group sounds good to me.

 

[Ben Alder]

Very grainy 1965 shot of an LMS van at Thurso. J hanger suspension and vacuum fitted. LNER design but BR built open beside it and a couple of Insulfishes on the rear siding.

[sulzer71]

Thanks for all the info so far everyone , bit snowed under with work currently so I'll be back and forth to this thread as and when I can

[sulzer71]

What are Ian Kirk kits like ?

[Fat Controller]

20 minutes ago, sulzer71 said:

What are Ian Kirk kits like ?

The freight stock went to Parkside; some items were carried on under the Parkside, now Peco badge, others (such as the ex-GWR ballast open) disappeared.

Coaching stock ended up with Coopercrafts. Not sure of current availability.

[sulzer71]

1 minute ago, Fat Controller said:

The freight stock went to Parkside; some items were carried on under the Parkside, now Peco badge, others (such as the ex-GWR ballast open) disappeared.

Coaching stock ended up with Coopercrafts. Not sure of current availability.

I just thought I would ask as there are several on the bay currently

[41516]

On 14/03/2022 at 12:44, sulzer71 said:

What are Ian Kirk kits like ?

 

Very much of their time (1970s), so less finely detailed than more modern kits.  Most that went to Parkside have been replaced by retooled versions.  Most are probably best thought of now as a 'blank canvas' to which you can add detail to your level of taste.

 

In some cases, what was tooled is still the only game in town (especially those bits that went to or belonged to Colin Ashby/Nu-cast, etc) with 2nd hand prices to match.

 

Edit - an example. WIP Kirk GWR van. Given a few details and everything below the body replaced (MJT/Bill Bedford/Comet/LMS/Parkside/Cambrian). Looks very much like how it should....except there's no thin lower plank at floor level, which then throws out the rest of the planking compared to how it 'should' be (found when looking at what plank level the vac pipes should be mounted). 

 

 

 

Things like that would count as a 'fatal flaw' in the aeromodelling/armour world - doesn't mean that you can't build them in the slightest.  There may be other similar 'gotchas' in other kits, but for the time when they were introduced, there was little else available, so thank you Mr Kirk!

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by 41516
restored picture

[sulzer71]

Morning Guys/Gals

 

Would the new release Bachmann Vanwide be of use to myself?

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, sulzer71 said:

Morning Guys/Gals

 

Would the new release Bachmann Vanwide be of use to myself?

 

Yes in BR Bauxite pre-tops livery. They were a very late addition to the fleet so it depends what you mean by 1960s too.

[sulzer71]

6 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Yes in BR Bauxite pre-tops livery. They were a very late addition to the fleet so it depends what you mean by 1960s too.

Thanks , if I decide to actually include the 1960s in my modelling it will most likely be mid-late 60s , my if I'm honest I prefer to be modelling the 70s/80s

[Michael Hodgson]

6 minutes ago, sulzer71 said:

 if I'm honest I prefer to be modelling the 70s/80s

Fair enough, so why models the 60s if that isn't a silly question?

[sulzer71]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Fair enough, so why models the 60s if that isn't a silly question?

As I have quite a few green diesels and maroon stock but as retooled versions of the loco's I have are/soon to be available my plan is to get rid of most if not all of them and invest in a smaller fleet of newer loco's and spend some of the money on the baseboards etc  

[Fat Controller]

32 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Yes in BR Bauxite pre-tops livery. They were a very late addition to the fleet so it depends what you mean by 1960s too.

Many still carried 'unboxed' livery until withdrawn, or conversion into VEAs, at the end of the 1970s. They often carried both 'unboxed' Vanwide lettering and TOPs coding.

[hmrspaul]

On 16/03/2022 at 11:24, Fat Controller said:

Many still carried 'unboxed' livery until withdrawn, or conversion into VEAs, at the end of the 1970s. They often carried both 'unboxed' Vanwide lettering and TOPs coding.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brvanwide

 

Scotland (I am assuming including the far north) had some stock specifically for whisky traffic. As well as usual BR writing they had CLV numbers which indicated they were suitably lockable and could move the load without taxation being paid - a mobile bonded warehouse. This system certainly existed well into the 1990s and some Speedfreight containers were suitably written by the late 1960s (Bachmann have issued Speedfreight containers). 

 

There has been a topic on RMWeb with a lot of photos taken in Scottish yards - not worth looking for until photos return. 

 

Paul

 

[sulzer71]

Morning All

 

Back to the New Bachmann wagons , I have decided I'm restricting my modelling period to 1970-1985 and modelling the Kyle Line so would both 38-870 + 38-871 be suitable?

 

Tia

 

Dave

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 14/03/2022 at 14:11, 41516 said:

In some cases, what was tooled is still the only game in town (especially those bits that went to or belonged to Colin Ashby/Nu-cast, etc) with 2nd hand prices to match.

 

Coincidentally I've just come across my stash of Colin Ashby kits purchased way back, there are some crying out for re-release.

 

Mike.

[Kylestrome]

56 minutes ago, sulzer71 said:

I have decided I'm restricting my modelling period to 1970-1985

 

That period encompasses a good deal of change which could lead to few anachronisms, if you run everything together. For example, the introduction of TOPS, replacement of vac-fitted/unfitted wagons with air-braked, Class 27s then 37/0s and 37/4s, almost complete elimination of freight traffic on the Kyle line and Radio Token Signalling (phew! 🙂).

 

I have similar modelling interests, but I have decided to concentrate on two main periods. 1968-9 which seem to be the last years where older BR wagon types, including pre-BR designs, could regularly be seen. After about 1970 it would be mostly BR Standard types. My second period is roughly 1984-6 which is a complete change of scene with 37s and AB wagons on the whole.

 

Of course, your Rule No. 1 might be different.

 

David

[sulzer71]

57 minutes ago, Kylestrome said:

 

That period encompasses a good deal of change which could lead to few anachronisms, if you run everything together. For example, the introduction of TOPS, replacement of vac-fitted/unfitted wagons with air-braked, Class 27s then 37/0s and 37/4s, almost complete elimination of freight traffic on the Kyle line and Radio Token Signalling (phew! 🙂).

 

I have similar modelling interests, but I have decided to concentrate on two main periods. 1968-9 which seem to be the last years where older BR wagon types, including pre-BR designs, could regularly be seen. After about 1970 it would be mostly BR Standard types. My second period is roughly 1984-6 which is a complete change of scene with 37s and AB wagons on the whole.

 

Of course, your Rule No. 1 might be different.

 

David

David , yeah , obviously I wouldn't be running my 70s & 80s stuff at the same time , I would have an early 70s running , a late 70s running and early 80s running depending on how I felt at the time

 

I'd rather avoid the large logo and RETB period if I'm honest but I know some 37s got radio equipment in the early-mid 80s  

 

My loco interests are 20s/24s/25s/26s/27s and 37s , I have as yet no evidence of 20s getting up the Kyle line and 27s were few and far between but rule 1 will need to apply here as I have some of the new tooling Bachmann 20s and they are going to be renumbered and modelled as 007 and 020 (Both briefly at IS in 1980)

 

I have been having a fleet cull recently as I decided I'll be modelling in EM and I'm not exactly a spring chicken and don't want to spend years converting everything , I currently have a set of wheels for one of the 20s and enough to do my SLW 24s (again , rule 1 will have to apply with those too as I have yet to find pictures of non head code box 24s at Kyle) 

 

I am currently doing any spending on stock rather than loco's as there's not much I need until the new Bachmann/SLW 25s arrive and I don't exactly need many rakes etc

 

I'm a fan of your work by the way especially the Rat Sandwich

 

Dave

[Kylestrome]

2 hours ago, sulzer71 said:

I have yet to find pictures of non head code box 24s at Kyle

 

I have found two photos, both of the same loco, at Kyle. 5113, together with 5129, in September 1973 on an excursion, and again as 24113 in July 1975 with a regular service train.

 

And here's another one:

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Kylestrome