Is it just me.................RTR problems

[halsey]

Hi Guys,

 

I can't believe its happened again - yet another RTR loco arrives and doesn't run properly - if at all.

 

This is the 4th in a row over the past 4 months - all Bachmann some 009 some OO - different suppliers - all DCC fitted as part of purchase transaction.

 

Why don't the retailers test before they send out.

 

This last one a 009 Double Fairlie literally wouldn't run when first offered to the track - the motor was running but clearly not engaging - with encouragement it did "cough" into action but as soon as I changed direction it failed to engage once again - at £280'ish it is already on its way back - no problem with the retailer but why don't they test in both directions on a loop before sending???

 

I'm not buying new RTR again for a while - the summer is on its way so I will wait until next winters modelling time - very disappointing as I waited 3 weeks for it, only to be let down - perhaps its due to poorer "post" COVID production quality controls.

 

Do others have the same issues??

 

Good to be back - well done again to Andy and team.

 

J 

Edited April 8, 2022 by halsey

[BroadLeaves]

1 hour ago, halsey said:

Why don't the retailers test before they send out.

Maybe it's because opening the box, removing the loco, putting it back and closing the box again without leaving any sign of having done so is very difficult and it invites returns on the basis of "not new - clearly already opened previously."

It's the same with any electrical appliance (which is one way to look at a model locomotive). I don't think ao.com put a couple of slices of bread in a toaster or plumb in a washing machine and run a test cycle before they ship them to you.

Most online retailers, including model railway ones, are really just "box shifters". They buy in bulk from the manufacturer and ship out individually to customers.

[meatloaf]

Theres a few places that do test before sending - Derails is one i can think of

[halsey]

14 minutes ago, BroadLeaves said:

Maybe it's because opening the box, removing the loco, putting it back and closing the box again without leaving any sign of having done so is very difficult and it invites returns on the basis of "not new - clearly already opened previously."

It's the same with any electrical appliance (which is one way to look at a model locomotive). I don't think ao.com put a couple of slices of bread in a toaster or plumb in a washing machine and run a test cycle before they ship them to you.

Most online retailers, including model railway ones, are really just "box shifters". They buy in bulk from the manufacturer and ship out individually to customers.

 

Hmmmmmmmm

 

As SWMBO often says there are always 2 sides to any problem - its a fair point - I truly hadn't thought of it that way as my perspective is if you are fitting DCC for a customer (and sometimes weathering) then surely you can test as well - its why I have always bought DCC fitted rather than doing it myself.

 

Cheers

 

J

[BroadLeaves]

Ah, OK. DCC fitted by the retailer, not at the factory?

If the retailer is doing the DCC fitting themselves, then it's different. In that case, the customer must expect the box to show signs of being opened and then yes, I'd expect the retailer to test it. If they are simply shipping a DCC factory-fitted locomotive, then I wouldn't.

[halsey]

Fitted by "them" in all cases as that is in part why I do it that way!

[halsey]

Interesting to chart my limited loco ownership "history" over the last 6 years.

 

I bought my first tank loco (and I've still got it) the stable then slowly grew to 11 and has been thinned down and now stands at 6 excellent runners, which will do for now, only one of those is/was bought BNIB and had DCC fitted by the retailer.

 

J

[The Johnster]

I rarely buy BNIB, because I can't afford it unless there are serious disconts, but have been lucky that problems have been minor or absent.  Bachmann 94xx; ran perfectly straight from the box, one problem just after it was out of warranty, easily sorted, perfect runner now.  Hornby 5101; ran straight out of the box but took a long time to run in to develop good slow running.  Have had trouble with crankpins unscrewing rh side and had to superglue rear faces of cylinders.  Hornby 42xx (not design smart), ran well out of the box, plods along exactly like a 42xx, trouble with crankpins unscrewing and bits falling off.  Hornby W4 Peckett; ran straight out of the box but took a long time to run in for optimum slow running, now a little miracle of perfect running! 

 

I appreciate the security of warranties available if you buy a brand new model, but prefer not to return them if I think I can sort the problem out myself, though I am aware that this in itself can invalidate the warranty.  My local model shop, Lord & Butler, the source of the 42xx and several of my secondhand locos, will not allow anything through the door or out in the post that has not been test run in both directions, new or secondhand, and I am fortunate that I live in the same city! 

 

You've been unlucky, but have the choice of purchasing from dealers of this sort and avoiding box shifters, who can often (but not always, especially for 2h) give you better prices but are box shifters who will not open the box or test the loco because they have neither the time or probably the facility to do so.  If you send a loco back to them, they will usually simply send you are replacement, which they also do not test, and return your orignal model to the manufacturer.  If you purchase direct from the manufacturer, which you can do with Hornby and Oxford but TTBOMK not Bachmann, who insist on selling through dealers, chances are you will be sent an untested loco from stock, but if it is returned faulty they will test it and attempt a repair, or claim that it was in working order all along and the fault lies with your track, controller or something if it tests successfully, and sometimes this is justified.  They will have staff avaialable, testing equipment, and a test track to hand.

 

It is very tiresome to have to return a new loco that you have been waiting for under warranty, and destroys the pleasure of recieving a new loco.  You wait, loco gets delivered, let joy be unconfined, you carefully open the box, examine your new pride and joy, put it on the track, and wind up the control knob.  Nothing happens,  so you try again, and still nothing happens, or something happens but not properly.  To quote Neil from 'Young Ones', 'real heavy bummer, man'.  And even if an effective repair or replacement eventually turns up while your are grinding your teeth in frustration, you will never enjoy it as fully as you would have if it had been right in the first place, because you'll never fully trust it...

 

A 009 RTR double Fairlie is pushing the envelope of what can be done reliably in 4mm scale, and should be a source of huge pride in ownership, as is a quarry Hunslet.  Failure rates for such intricate masterpieces are bound to be higher than for, say, a standard gauge twin bogied locomotive or even a small standard gauge steam engine. 

[halsey]

What an excellent reply .................I agree with every word incl the fact that I cant afford it either but I thought it would be "worth a go" on a couple of occasions.

 

The appeal of the Double Fairlie was the better pick up wheelbase but it was never working well enough to be tested - IMHO the quality control is just not there anymore - refund expected as I don't want another one for the reasons outlined in your penultimate para and it was £280!

 

J

[BroadLeaves]

38 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Have had trouble with crankpins unscrewing rh side

Is that due to precession? Pedal cycles have a left-hand thread on the left pedal for this reason, so that the rotating motion of the pedal always acts to tighten the pedal in the crank, not loosen it.

For a locomotive, I'm wondering if it's the same thing but in reverse. The conn rod acting on the crankpin will tend to rotate the right hand pin counter-clockwise and so undo it.

[Wheatley]

Agreed, if the retailer has fitted the chip then there's no excuse for it not working properly. 

 

I know not everyone has the option but I buy most of my new RTR (which isn't a huge amount) in person so I can see it running. I've only had two duff ones recently,  both bought by mail order - a Heljan Clayton which needed a comple strip, de-gunk and rebuild before it would do more than crawl, and a Model Rail Sentinel which has an audible tight spot somewhere despite running in,  but not so bad that I thought to send it back. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Wheatley

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, halsey said:

What an excellent reply .................I agree with every word incl the fact that I cant afford it either but I thought it would be "worth a go" on a couple of occasions.

 

The appeal of the Double Fairlie was the better pick up wheelbase but it was never working well enough to be tested - IMHO the quality control is just not there anymore - refund expected as I don't want another one for the reasons outlined in your penultimate para and it was £280!

 

J

 

The RTR manufacturers get the QC they pay for, and we are not party to what level of QC each one actually does pay for.  The Chinese manufacturing system depends on sub-, sub-sub-, and sub-sub-sub-contractors all over what is a very large country, and QC is difficult to establish reliably and consistently in such circumstances until the final assembly and packing stage when all the components are brought together.  The Chinese are very good at producing realistic little electric trains that usually perform pretty well despite this, but there are all sorts of opportunities for mistakes to slip through the net and only a very small percentage of assembled models will be randomly tested before the models are in the container on the way to be distributed from Margate, Barwell, Wrexham, or wherever, where they will not be tested unless they are returned as faulty.

 

The big RTR players have to walk a knife edge between competitive pricing, satisfying their real customers (who are the shareholders, not us), production and other costs, and QC, and in an increasinly competitive market in which prices are being constantly pressured upwards, it seems likely that QC is one of the first things in their sights on the shooting range of cost cutting that is available to them.  This is no excuse, of course, but might be an explanation of the situation...

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, BroadLeaves said:

Is that due to precession? Pedal cycles have a left-hand thread on the left pedal for this reason, so that the rotating motion of the pedal always acts to tighten the pedal in the crank, not loosen it.

For a locomotive, I'm wondering if it's the same thing but in reverse. The conn rod acting on the crankpin will tend to rotate the right hand pin counter-clockwise and so undo it.

 

I think this is quite possible.  Two of my Hornby locos have suffered from it and I regularly check and tighten the crankpins to avoid problems, a job that only takes a few seconds and re-assures me.  They mostly don't need tighteng but occasionally do, and one must keep a particuar watch on the leading wheel crankpin which will foul on the rear of the crosshead if it is allowed to work it's way loose.  I find crankpin-sized nut spinners an essential part of the maintenance toolkit!  On the 42xx, I have cured the problem (so far, only did this a few weeks ago so it has yet to prove itself as a satisfactory long term solution) by dropping the wheels out and applying a tiny spot of poundshop superglue to the rear face of the wheel where the crankpin end is visible in it's threaded hole.  Poundshop s/glue is best for this, because if it ever becomes necessary to remove the crankpins, the glue will break under the pressure of the nut spinner's rotation; bodgerigar engineering at it's best...  You can then re-glue it when the crankpin is replaced.

Edited April 8, 2022 by The Johnster

[stewartingram]

With regard to crankpins (or any screw thread) that tends to undo, the proper solution is a spot of Loctite 'screwlok' or similar, which btw is NOT superglue.

I don't bother with this however; At work (in the '60s, before we got hold of Loctite, we used ordinary varnish, brushed on to the screw thread - which is something most modellers have in stock or can easily obtain. This will hold the thread when it is dry, in fact paint will as well. It can be undone if required too.

[blueeighties]

I see a large amount of locos on the workbench, mainly 0 gauge these days with a small amount of 00. Over the 8 years I have been doing this, out of the box running issues have become steadily worse. Hornby are terrible...it's quite rare for a loco to actually work properly. I think the days of every loco being tested on a circle of track before boxing up for sale have long gone.

[DCB]

The simple answer is to buy over the counter from an actual shop not over T'internet.  Paignton Model Centre were brilliant when we bought a 64XX, the guy gave it a run round an actual layout before sale, and my local shop, Cheltenham Model Centre always give a loco a run on a yard or so of track when I buy from there.

Otherwise there is that glow of pride when you finally get your mail order model to run.  The last, a Bachmann class 67 had its cardan shafts disconnected.    The Fairlies and quarry Hunslets are finely detailed but lets face it they are mechanically similar to 1080s N gauge mechaniisms so that excuse is a bit thin.   (as is a Fairlie with the bogies staying in synch, needs two motors really)

[The Johnster]

The ability of locos to be repaired by ordinary mortal modellers is decreasing at the same time as well, partly a result of the need to cater for DCC.  Very fine wiring in very restricted spaces is easy to break at the soldered joints and considerable soldering skill is needed to effect repairs; some of us old codgers remember working on Triang or Hornby Dublo locos that used live return chassis and motors with replacaeble carbon brushes.  If you lost or broke the retaining spring you could make one out of one a paper clip or one of mummy's hair clips, and there was little that an average 12-year old could not cope with in keeping the locos running.  By the time you were in your mid teens you were replacing wheels and gears with Romfords and considering building whitemetal kits.

 

The modern scene is less amenable to this sort of thing, and some of us run into trouble or find ourselfs scarily close to the boundaries of our comfort zone when we try it on with modern RTR, and the trend is towards locos with 'no user accessible parts inside'; if it fails outside the warranty, you have to buy a new one!  'Whaddya mean, you've detailed/repainted/weathered/given it new transfers/nameplates/crew to your own needs and now you have to do all that again, you've put up with this for years with your tv, washing machine, and so on.  We can make it repairable, and we can provide better QC, but you wouldn't like the RRP'.

Edited April 10, 2022 by The Johnster

[woodenhead]

At least now the newer manufacturers are considering the mortals when it comes to things like speakers and chipping, little lift out panels to avoid having to take the model apart just to put in your chip of choice

[SamThomas]

On 08/04/2022 at 14:11, BroadLeaves said:

 I don't think ao.com put a couple of slices of bread in a toaster or plumb in a washing machine and run a test cycle before they ship them to you.

Revently bought two Curry's own brand washing machines & they ;

 

1) Actually test their machines with water or

2) Employ someone to chuck a cupful of water into them to give the impression that they do.

[Hal Nail]

Not having QC and being able to return defective goods for replacement, costs us nothing whereas as we would foot the bill for the alternative.

 

If the level of returns was generally as high as the OP has suffered, the manufacturers would be forced to do something so its probably just bad luck (sadly).

 

On balance, given the widely reported factors everywhere that are only forcing prices up, I'd rather live with the current approach personally but it has meant I inspect and test immediately and am far less reluctant to return things if not 100% happy than I used to be.

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Hal Nail

[woodenhead]

I think it comes down to if the model is BNIB or has been opened and whether the manufacturer has made allowances for failures if the QC has been kept to a minimum.  Good packaging also goes a long way towards ensuring models reach us in the condition God intended, we've seen from the broken Hornby models that perhaps improved packaging would resolve a lot of the apparent QC issues.  All the testing in the world won't resolve the results of a shaken and poorly handled crate of highly detailed models if the packaging is below par for the punishment it is going to receive.

 

However, in the OP's case, these were not BNIB models he was receiving, they had been handled by a third party to install chips, even if you are just inserting the pins, in many cases this can involve taking the body off and once you've done that there is the risk of damage.  In addition, put a chip in incorrectly and damage can occur to the electronics rendering a loco lifeless.  So I would expect any locomotive being chipped to be tested twice, before inserting the chip and again after before being shipped.

[halsey]

On 10/04/2022 at 15:09, woodenhead said:

At least now the newer manufacturers are considering the mortals when it comes to things like speakers and chipping, little lift out panels to avoid having to take the model apart just to put in your chip of choice

 

.............................as with the Bachmann Double Fairlie which was my last fail and the catalyst for the original post.............

 

 

[Phil Parker]

This is a good reason to buy from actual model shops - Hereford Model Centre is only 13 miles from you and I recall seeing a test track in there when I've visited.

[Chrisr40]

3 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

This is a good reason to buy from actual model shops - Hereford Model Centre is only 13 miles from you and I recall seeing a test track in there when I've visited.

Offset your cost of using bricks and mortar shops v Internet against the pain in the chuff returning stuff is

[Phil Parker]

Just now, Chrisr40 said:

Offset your cost of using bricks and mortar shops v Internet against the pain in the chuff returning stuff is

 

To be fair, any offsetting during a visit to the HMC is offset by the extra goodies I find to buy in that fantastic shop...