Is it just me.................RTR problems

[The Johnster]

20 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Not having QC and being able to return defective goods for replacement, costs us nothing whereas as we would foot the bill for the alternative.

 

 

Agreed, but it's not as straightforward as this.  Better QC would be a cost passed to the consumer, resulting in higher prices still at a time when they are rising sharply, and I would expect them to double within the next year or so as fuel prices skyrocket (thank you very much, Mr Putin you ****).  But returning faulty models is a time consuming faff and frustrating, especially if you've been waiting eagerly for a new release.  Johnster would not have been a happy bunny if his famous Bachmann 94xx had not run nearly perfectly out of the long awaited box, and it has settled down to become an excellent performer. 

 

I have the impression that Bachmann spend more on QC than Hornby, and that this accounts for both the difference in prices and increasingly poor reputation red box have for bits falling off and running problems.  But there is no way of confirming this, it is none of our business and a matter for the individual companies concerned.  H are not out of their financial woods, so I can understand their need to keep prices down and market share up, but they still need all the goodwill they can muster, and an impression of poor overall quality does not play well with this requirement.

[halsey]

7 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

This is a good reason to buy from actual model shops - Hereford Model Centre is only 13 miles from you and I recall seeing a test track in there when I've visited.

 

FYI - to avoid confusion I always buy on line but from actual (retail premises based) model shops (unless an eBay "risky" buy) all well rated on RMW.

[woodenhead]

Arcadia does test everything, don't even need to ask, he has the loco on the track in the blink of an eye and asks if you are satisfied.

 

When it comes to chips, I get all mine from Digitrains, I'd like to visit but it's a bit of a drive to Lincolnshire, but their service is second to none, and they are always able to offer advice.  Based on that experience, I've paid more for an item through them than I could have sourced elsewhere simply because I felt the advice given was worth the difference in the price.

 

I also for a long time steered away from soldering my own chips even selling locos that ran perfectly well but lacked pin install for DCC.  It was only this year that I finally saw sense and had a go - on a ten year old Farish 04, followed quickly by a similar 08.  The money saved in doing this rather than selling the old ones to replace with new ones has gone on a Rapido 28 with Sound.

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

FYI - to avoid confusion I always buy on line but from actual (retail premises based) model shops (unless an eBay "risky" buy) all well rated on RMW.

 

With Bachmann (and Peco) you can only buy from physical model shops as they don't supply mail-order only establishments. However, if the model goes in the post, the good folks at Yodel etc. can still undo any amount of QC. If you visit the actual shop, they should let you take it out of the box and place the loco on the track for a run. I've even taken several out and picked the best runner from amoung them.

[halsey]

12 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

This is a good reason to buy from actual model shops - Hereford Model Centre is only 13 miles from you and I recall seeing a test track in there when I've visited.

 

I don't do shopping of any kind - I don't like traffic, parking charges, queueing etc etc - 1/2 hr on the internet save masses of time and easily offsets the low returns rate - that wasn't my point - my point was that the retailers could save themselves wasted time with a testing option offered to customers (to get over the box having been "opened") - 3 min radius loops of popular scales and 10 mins each way would discover 99.9% of all problems and provide a USP I would certainly welcome.

 

J

[halsey]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

 

I have the impression that Bachmann spend more on QC than Hornby, and that this accounts for both the difference in prices and increasingly poor reputation red box have for bits falling off and running problems.  

 

All the locos referred to were Bachmann! - I wouldn't entertain Hornby I do appreciate it has a solid fan base.

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

I don't do shopping of any kind - I don't like traffic, parking charges, queueing etc etc - 1/2 hr on the internet save masses of time and easily offsets the low returns rate - that wasn't my point - my point was that the retailers could save themselves wasted time with a testing option offered to customers (to get over the box having been "opened") - 3 min radius loops of popular scales and 10 mins each way would discover 99.9% of all problems and provide a USP I would certainly welcome.

 

J

But that takes up time and space which in a small shop may not be feasible - each loco being tested needs to be watched, especially if the test track is in a public space, if you sell several locos in a day that could be quite a chunk of the day lost with 20 minutes testing per loco plus time to unbox and rebox.  And then what radius curve do you use, you cannot go minimum radius, not all RTR work on the tightest curves so you are probably wanting radii 3 or higher. 

 

I agree that a loco that has been modded should be tested so that it functions before and after, but expecting the shop to do a lengthy running test is probably asking too much of many if not all modelling shops.  We spend a lot more money on a new TV, washing machine or suchlike and I don't expect John Lewis (as someone at the premium end of the retail range) to have tested them thoroughly before I receive them.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, halsey said:

 

All the locos referred to were Bachmann! - I wouldn't entertain Hornby I do appreciate it has a solid fan base.

 

Yes, I know.  I was speaking as I found; all my Bachmann locos run faultlessly and bits don't fall off them.  I don't have any particular brand loyalty or bias, and buy locomotives that are suitable for repainting and renumbering into actual locos that were allox to Tondu shed, 86F, between 1948 and 1958 (apart from the two NCB colliery shunters and a Rule 1 BR Standard 3MT tank).  But I have had problems with Hornbys, both new and secondhand.  The breakdown is like this, out of 16 locos in service at the moment, 11 are Bachmanns and 5 are Hornby, but this is simply because Bachmann happen to make more of the locos I want than Hornby do; I Hornby 2721 on Bachmann 57xx mech, 1 Hornby 42xx, 1 Bachmann 45xx, 2 Baccy 4575, 1 H 5101, 2 Baccy 56xx, 2 Baccy 57xx, 2 Baccy 8750, 1 Baccy 94xx, 1 Baccy 82xxx, 1 Hornby W4 Peckett and 1 Hornby (Dapol style) Hunslet Austerity.  Of the Hornbys, both the 42xx and the 5101 have dropped parts including crankpins, and the 5101 has had to have the rear faces of it's cylinders and the motion bracket glued back into place.  The Hunslet, bought secondhand, took a good bit of fiddling and tweaking to get the best performance out of, and the W4 has been a good runner out of the box, and a near perfect runnern now it has bedded in!

 

So, my experience of Bachmann products is that they are excellent, run well by default, and can be handled without fine detail being lose so long as some care is taken, though of course I am not aware of problems solved by previous owners of my various secondhand ones.  My experience of Hornby is that bits are liable to drop off, and these are sometimes serious components that affect running, not delicate fine detail.  Dropping a crankpin, which has happened on both my large GW tank engines, resulted on the 42xx in the piston coming out of the cyldinder and digging into the ballast, causing a spectacular somersault and minor, fortunately repairable, damage to the loco!  The W4 cannot be faulted, and Hornby cannot be blamed for any of the shortcomings of the Hunslet, which is a Dapol design.  It is very track sensitive because there is no vertical play in the chassis which is very rigid, so track must be dead level, and gear meshing is critical; too tight and the loco jams, too loose and the gears don't engage, and some fine tuning was needed to get this secondhand loco running well.  The 2721 gave so much trouble that I eventually gave up and used the secondhand Baccy 57xx I origninally bought to upgrade a Lima 94xx, now scrapped.

 

I therefore regard Bachmann as a safer and more reliable, if more costly, pair of hands when it comes to both new and secondhand RTR.  I have no experience of other makes of RTR locos, no Oxford, Heljan, Accurascale, or recent Dapol, and no Hattons, Kernow, or Rails commissions, so cannot comment on them.  But I would be happy to buy from any of them if they were to produce any loco that I don't have from Tondu in the 1948-58 timeframe, so anyone who turns up with a 44xx, Collett 1938 31xx, or an 1854, or for that matter a better 2721 which would mean that the 57xx chassis could go back under it's original body, would find a willing customer in the mean inner city streets of Cardiff...

 

My philosophy is to buy good quality 21st century tooled RTR where it is available (my definition of good quality for eBay purposes being the presence of NEM pockets), poorer quality older toolings where there is no alternative, to be worked up as best I can, to build kits if no RTR is available, to alter RTR by cut'n'shut/kitbashing if that is the only way to provide myself with a loco, or, at the last resort, to scratch build.  There are cheats to help with this, for example my previous 5101 was an Airfix-based Hornby with no cab detail and the motor visible through the cab cutouts, so I used crew to block the view of the cab interior.  The 2721 has the Bachmann gear worm visible through the firehole door, and my prototype 2761 , last of the class at Tondu, was a half cab to the end, so I've used a combination of crew and a canvas weather sheet to hide the offending worm. 

 

2761 is a challenging model to own even with it's Bachmann mech.  The scale compromises are impossible to get rid of and it is clear in a broadside on view that the splashers do not align with the wheels, but I've replaced the buffers, chimney, dome, safety valve bonnet, glazed the windows and put real coal in the bunker, so she doesn't look too bad at a distance in poor light downhill with a following wind and after half a bottle of vodka.  Rule 1 until a decent model is produced!

 

 

[SM42]

The big problem with a pre dispatch test is that is subjective to the tester 

 

It moved up and down is a test. Whether they would discard because it waddled along  was a bit jerky starting or was it a full power both ways test and it passed 

There is no QC on the test, and even then the postal system will test its durability.

 

I've had one loco arrive that was pre tested but awful on arrival. The retailer was surprised and I have no reason to suspect they didn't test like they said they had. 

 

They couldn't replace as sold out so 

a warranty repair was sought.

It appears something in the drive train came loose in transit.

 

  I probably could have done it myself but at least the repair didn't cost me and I didn't have the faff. 

 

Anything mail order has a higher risk than picking it up in person

 

Andy

[Right Away]

On the rare occasion that I am able to purchase a locomotive (these days), it is first tested by inverting and the axles are checked to ensure they can collect power by touching a 9v battery to each pair of wheels; valve motion operation is observed at the same time. The battery is reversed and the wheels run in the opposite direction. This is a good time to check that smaller details such as sanding pipes are present and not in danger of falling off.

If, at this point, things are looking OK the engine is test run on a 4th radius test track in both directions and forwards and backwards; ie, clockwise - forwards, clockwise - backwards, anticlockwise - forwards, anticlockwise - backwards. The idea is to try and even out any bias to the curvature of the circle of track. The whole exercise from opening the box takes around an hour and a half but I regard it as time well spent.

Some may regard this as overkill and I agree it is a bit of a performance but if the model has survived thus far, it is ready for its decoder, the fitting of accessories and finally any weathering.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Right Away
correction

[The Johnster]

I wonder if something akin to the motor trade's Pre Delivery Inspection could reduce the number of models returned under warranty, a checklist to be signed off on before the model is passed to the customer.  Models returned under warranty are a burden to the manufacturers, as a replacement must be provided to the customer at cost to the company, as well as damage to reputation and goodwill.  A PDI routine might be viable if it costs less than the above! 

 

Perhaps something like; remove model from box (or carry out before it is boxed), check that all parts are present, check running in both directions with 9v battery, sign PDI certificate and put model back in box.  Less than a minute per model unless the PDI is failed, in which case it can be handed to a closer inspection and repair department.

 

I have developed a checking routine which I apply to all locomotives, new or secondhand, when they come into my posession, as follows; remove from box, visually examine, put on track and run in both directions, take body off and carefully remove keeper plate, drop the wheels out, clean the coloured grease lube out with a spray electrical switch cleaner, leave for an hour or overnight for the switch cleaner to evaporate, and apply non-mineral machine oil as sparingly as you can manage (too much collects crud and messes up pickup conductiviity) to the points illustrated in the owner's manual sheet with the exploded drawing that comes with the model.  If this is not present, such as in the case of a secondhand loco, it can be downloaded as a pdf from the manufacturer's website.  I don't like the coloured grease lube, which attracts crud and can solidify in transit or over periods of storage.  I apply the oil with a syringe, but a droplet on the end of a pin will do as well.

 

This routine should not be necessary, but I have found it useful not only in forestalling potential problems but in familiarising oneself with the processes of removing the body, accessing the interior, and removing wheels to attend to pickups.  If there are outside cylinders, it is a good idea to remove the big end crankpin with a nut spinner and take the connecting rod, crosshead, and piston rod out; this will make life much easier when you come to re-assemble the loco.  When you replace the keeper plate, pay close attention to the 'set' of the pickups against the rear of the wheel tyres, and confirm that they will bear across the full sideways play of each wheelset.  

 

I insert small screws, crankpins, and the like in a lump of BluTac, which prevents their becoming sacrifices to the Carpet Monster.

 

As I do not have a test track circuit, I then run the re-assembled chassis in for about half an hour in each direction, starting out at about 3/4 power and decreasing in steps until good slow running is achieved, using crocodile clips from the track, with the chassis raised on Lego bricks*.  While this is being done, check for smooth and quiet running, listening for clicks and scrapes, and that wheels revolve true and straight.  Then, put the body back on and test run in both directions on the track to confirm that nothing is fouling anywhere.  Your loco is now ready to go into service.

 

 

*Lego shops will sell you a plastic pot about 6" tall by about same diameter,full of whatever bricks you want for £6, and the bricks are useful for all sorts of things, chassis raising included, as well as as formers for square building and wagon kits, supports for all sorts of things, assembly jigs.  Brilliant!

[Phil Parker]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Perhaps something like; remove model from box (or carry out before it is boxed), check that all parts are present, check running in both directions with 9v battery, sign PDI certificate and put model back in box.  Less than a minute per model unless the PDI is failed, in which case it can be handed to a closer inspection and repair department.

 

I doubt you could get a model in and out of its box in under a minute, let alone check it properly for loose bits and give it a run. 

 

Then there is the question of running quality. Is simply moving OK or do we expect a certain undefinable quality of movement? What happens if this can only be achieved after running in? 

 

None of which helps if it's then handed to a delivery service who lob it over your fence from a speeding van. 😉 

[kevinlms]

On 09/04/2022 at 05:02, The Johnster said:

 

 

 

The big RTR players have to walk a knife edge between competitive pricing, satisfying their real customers (who are the shareholders, not us), production and other costs,

Sorry any business that thinks that share holders are much more important than customers, have got it wrong.

Customers will buy a product once and if it fails to meet expectations, why would they come back? Surely that is NOT in the shareholders best interest.

 

Buying model trains is something a manufacturer would like it's customer to do more than once. Unlike say a major bank loan, where the customer is stuck with it for years. Yes, it can be renegotiated, but you can't keep doing that without affecting your credit rating.

[Phil Bullock]

Surely a big factor in all of this is the collectors market …. Probably bigger than those with train sets or model railway.

 

Models sold to them will most likely never be run and will either sit static in a display case or even in their original box. In both cases their running qualities will never be tested and the owner supplier and manufacturer will remain in blissful ignorance of any QC issues pertaining to locomotion. 
 

What percentage of the market might this be I wonder? Those who keep them in the original boxes most likely will not want them opened for test running……

[PMP]

6 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I doubt you could get a model in and out of its box in under a minute, let alone check it properly for loose bits and give it a run. 

 

 

 You can. 

 

Obvs this doesn’t include the cardboard carton, so add another 10 seconds. This video was done to demonstrate just how easy it is to get the Bachmann 94xx out of its ice cube, as it was claimed too difficult/tight etc etc on this model.
One of those protagonists may or may not have have posted on this thread that it takes  a minute to check a new model 🙄

Edited April 12, 2022 by PMP

[RedgateModels]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

Surely a big factor in all of this is the collectors market …. Probably bigger than those with train sets or model railway.

 

Models sold to them will most likely never be run and will either sit static in a display case or even in their original box. In both cases their running qualities will never be tested and the owner supplier and manufacturer will remain in blissful ignorance of any QC issues pertaining to locomotion. 
 

What percentage of the market might this be I wonder? Those who keep them in the original boxes most likely will not want them opened for test running……

 

Yes, I've seen video of at least one avid Hornby Dublo/Wrenn collector who examines the wheels of the loco with an eyeglass to make sure it has never been run. Not my thing but as you say it takes all sorts 😃

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

Surely a big factor in all of this is the collectors market …. Probably bigger than those with train sets or model railway.

 

Models sold to them will most likely never be run and will either sit static in a display case or even in their original box. In both cases their running qualities will never be tested and the owner supplier and manufacturer will remain in blissful ignorance of any QC issues pertaining to locomotion. 
 

What percentage of the market might this be I wonder? Those who keep them in the original boxes most likely will not want them opened for test running……

I reckon 50-70% of new loco sales. The vast majority of my toy train purchases are 'used' from eBay or sellers like Ellis Clark and most of the locos have clearly never been run to any significant extent, if at all. The condition of the box often takes up more of the item description than the condition of the loco.

 

Add to that the number of times I've read here, for example in the zinc pest thread, statements like "I checked the loco when I bought it but it's been sitting in the loft/shed/spare room for 10 years'; so  more unused products.

 

As you say the manufacturers won't be getting any adverse feedback on these items sitting in their boxes.

[AndrueC]

18 hours ago, Chrisr40 said:

Offset your cost of using bricks and mortar shops v Internet against the pain in the chuff returning stuff is

A valid point and supporting local shops in this instance has merit. However the process of returning an item shouldn't be painful.

* Book courier (£10 or less postage for a model train unless very large scale, but anyway the retailer is legally obliged to refund this). Larger retailers will do this for you.

* Print label and stick on original packaging.

* Drop package off at local shop or wait for courier to pick it up.

 

Of course if you choose to go to your nearest Post Office, stand in a queue for half an hour then negotiate a transaction with the counter staff it may well be painful. Probably more expensive as well

Edited April 12, 2022 by AndrueC

[halsey]

8 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

 

 

Of course if you choose to go to your nearest Post Office, stand in a queue for half an hour then negotiate a transaction with the counter staff it may well be painful. Probably more expensive as well

 

I never go to a Post Office always doorstep collections............................😀 but then the Hermes Guy is a long standing friend so I do get VG service.

[Legend]

19 hours ago, halsey said:

 

I don't do shopping of any kind - I don't like traffic, parking charges, queueing etc etc - 1/2 hr on the internet save masses of time and easily offsets the low returns rate - that wasn't my point - my point was that the retailers could save themselves wasted time with a testing option offered to customers (to get over the box having been "opened") - 3 min radius loops of popular scales and 10 mins each way would discover 99.9% of all problems and provide a USP I would certainly welcome.

 

J

 

Hereford did test locos before shipment , I dont know if they still do it . I certainly received a Hornby Met Camm unit that had a little note saying "tested by.........." on it , but that was probably 10 years ago !    

[Steamport Southport]

Model shops testing them or the manufacturers?

 

 

Worth bearing in mind any retailer could be in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015* by opening and using an item without permission. Any retailer should know that. It's tampering with goods and could mean a model that is sold as new is now deemed as "used". They are basically breaking the law.

 

Best to leave it alone and leave all opening to the customer. If it's faulty or damaged then return it. Quite simple really.

 

 

*Look it up and read it if you are an insomniac, it's online. All retailers should have a copy in their premises and by rights should know it. 

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

Yes, I've seen video of at least one avid Hornby Dublo/Wrenn collector who examines the wheels of the loco with an eyeglass to make sure it has never been run. Not my thing but as you say it takes all sorts 😃

 

James May's Toy Stories ISTR.

 

The one where he later asks for the box to be binned after buying a model at auction, but I reckon that bit was for the cameras.

 

 

Jason

[andyman7]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I have the impression that Bachmann spend more on QC than Hornby, and that this accounts for both the difference in prices and increasingly poor reputation red box have for bits falling off and running problems.  But there is no way of confirming this, it is none of our business and a matter for the individual companies concerned.  H are not out of their financial woods, so I can understand their need to keep prices down and market share up, but they still need all the goodwill they can muster, and an impression of poor overall quality does not play well with this requirement.

Bachmann is part of a group with their own production facility, which is why I think they have much more consistency in what is delivered. Hornby use a number of suppliers (having been badly burned when Sanda Kan closed down a decade back and left them scrabbling to source new manufacturing capability in China); the downside of this appears to be that there is greater inconsistency in what gets delivered as there is a less embedded relationship.

Edited April 12, 2022 by andyman7
Spelling

[The Johnster]

12 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I doubt you could get a model in and out of its box in under a minute, let alone check it properly for loose bits and give it a run. 

 

Then there is the question of running quality. Is simply moving OK or do we expect a certain undefinable quality of movement? What happens if this can only be achieved after running in? 

 

None of which helps if it's then handed to a delivery service who lob it over your fence from a speeding van. 😉 

 

I was suggesting a fast basic check, ideally just before putting the model in the box, at the packing plant, visual check and confirmation that the wheels turn in both directions; I reckon that could easily be done in less than 60 seconds.  Perhaps it should be called a pre-boxing inspection, the analogy with a car PDI suggests a full inspection of multiple components, which isn't practical on all models though a set percentage removed from the line and examined like this is basic QC procedure.  Thinking about it, it is probably a bit ambitious to expect anyone to take the loco back out of the box once it's been put in there, and it would take more than a minute!  Running quality, haulage, slow running, gear meshing, pickup adjustment and such is too much to ask.

 

At least my PBI would ensure that models run when the customers take them out of the boxes and put them on their layouts rather than have to send them back under warranty for minor, easily preventable faults. An extra minute per model in the packing plant will reduce productivity and increase costs, of course, but I couldn't say if it would be to a greater or lesser extent than the money saved by reduction in models returned under warranty and the postage costs that the company incurs.  This would be the bottom line of course, but there is also the company's reputation and image to consider.

 

I completely agree about delivery services, remembering my Post Office drop kick training for sorting parcels...

[AY Mod]

14 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

was suggesting a fast basic check, ideally just before putting the model in the box, at the packing plant, visual check and confirmation that the wheels turn in both directions; I reckon that could easily be done in less than 60 seconds. 

 

I've explained before that Bachmann test 100% of their locos before final packing. Of course transit and initial handling by shop or customer could impact a 100% outcome.