Hornby Tier System- An Update.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

TBH, the Rule One mob and collectors between them probably account for many more sales than all we "serious" modellers combined.

 

Whilst we may want/need half a dozen Black Fives or thirty-odd West Countries (guilty) they will generally be more interested in something they don't already own.

 

I therefore think that fears that, because all the "low-hanging fruit" have been picked, the RTR trade is doomed to contract, are greatly overstated.

 

John

Worthwhile bearing in mind that over recent years a new 4mm/00 'manufacturer' has arrived in the marketplace at a rate of roughly one per annum.  And only one has gone (and seemingly that was entirely down to mismanagement rather than poor understanding of the market).   One who a few years back was seen as a basket case and likely to go under at any time has not only survived but is busily introducing totally new 00 models.

 

Excluding purely retailer commissioners of new tooling but including joint ventures involving a retailer I think there are currently c.15 concerns/brands in the 00 r-t-r market although some of them have only thus far offered/promised one or two models while some have produced a model and then moved on to the next one.  This includes some who work on a crowd-funding or pre-payment basis and don't sell through retail outlets but at least 11 of that c.15 do sell through retail outlets of some sort or another and at least 7 have a wide range of retail outlets which are certainly increasing in the case of two of them thus providing a greater range of products for retailers.

 

So in reality as far as producers are concerned there is no contraction and a lot of expansion (and they are not all chasing the same markets although they could perhaps all be reasonably considered as being after a slice of the overall 00 r-t-r cake)

[SHMD]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

the problem with this image, is the tank still has its turret.

 

I would have thought a tank, minus its turret, and impaled in a field may be contemporary, as would tractors towing tanks, and of course opening rear doors displaying a stolen washing machine inside.

 

 

 Ah, but this tank has a Tractor in front of it.

 

 

Kev.

[bigherb]

4 hours ago, Drifter said:

 

 

 

Will they be doing ships?

[ChrisMitchell]

9 minutes ago, bigherb said:

 

Will they be doing ships?

 

already announced by Revell 🤣🤣🤣

 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by ChrisMitchell

[Bernard Lamb]

6 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

And the major plastic kit manufacturer in Ukraine has announced a set of 1/35th Ukrainian soldier figures with an AK47, mobile phone (taking a picture) and a V sign victory salute for posing next to a Russian Tank, you just have to admire their resilience and determination during this war.

But do the AK47s use NATO or Russian ammo.?

A bit like the situation with 00 and P4.😀

Bernard

 

[boxbrownie]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

But do the AK47s use NATO or Russian ammo.?

A bit like the situation with 00 and P4.😀

Bernard

 

They use Ukrainian ammo, that’s where they are made 😉

 

Strictly speaking it looks like only one of those soldiers is using the Vepr Bulpup Ukrainian AK47 the other looks a bit generic, like most of them are.

Edited April 16, 2022 by boxbrownie

[Robin Brasher]

 

 

Great pictures of the Ukrainian War.

 

Back to topic.  I have ordered a Rule 1 rake of LNER coaches, that may be in short supply, for my model of the Swanage Railway from the Swanage Railway shop which is my local shop and is in tier 2. Will you please let me know if I have made the correct decision or should I have ordered directly from Hornby, which I assume is in tier 1 or a tier 1 shop wherever that exists? Whatever you reply I am going to keep my order with my local shop so as not to undermine it and not to upset a gentleman in admin.

 

Last year I ordered a Rule 1 rake of Coronation Scot coaches from the Swanage Railway shop. Hornby delivered some to the shop but told them that they were unable to deliver the others which seems strange as I would have thought people would have ordered the set. I think I ended up buying the rest directly from Hornby although they claimed they had run out of them.

[APOLLO]

We are all entering a very different and rapidly changing world. Model shops, manufacturers (Hornby, Bachmann etc) and their Chinese contractors who actually make our models. Inflation, wages. raw materials, energy, transportation costs all increasing seemingly exponentially. The tale and causes of it is well discussed.

 

Our models today are very fine detailed and are thus expensive taking into account the above. Long lead times and limited production runs mean Hornby (etc) need to sell out models quickly, not have them hanging around as per years past, and sell at as near RRP as possible, hence the tier system. Hard on Model Shops I do agree though.

 

Take a staple item, A (Bachmann) Mineral wagon - most of us need several some many. An Airfix one was two bob for many years (and a fine kit it is too). Only a few years ago a Baccy one was around £8, now RRP is £27.95, a rake of 30 would cost just under £840 - serious money indeed.

 

We all spend our pennies as we wish. My modelling budget will be decimated by home energy costs more than doubling this year, also petrol, food etc getting expensive by the day. Most of us are in the same boat though with differing levels of disposable spend.

 

I won't moan (seeing what is going on in Ukraine), Henceforth I will buy what I can afford, and what I need, but my days of off the cuff see it, like it, buy it model spending are gone, perhaps for ever,

 

Brit15

 

 

[Johann Marsbar]

7 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Please tell me that's not a wind up & provide a link - I just have to have one of those.

 

I suggest a browse of the Scalemates site.....

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/master-box-mb35223-defence-kyiv-march-2022--1411273

 

I hasn't realised that they were producing such things either, but a significant number of the 1/35 military kits come from Ukraine nowadays.

I've got a few ones originating there still to make in my storage cupboard.......

[Robin Brasher]

One advantage of the high prices is that most people are careful about what they buy. I have ended up with over 1,000 models that spend most of their time stored in boxes that are too good to take to the tip and almost impossible to sell. If the items had always cost the equivalent of £30 for a wagon, £70 for a coach and £210 for a locomotive I would have been far more selective about what I bought. One disadvantage of the tier system is that you can end up without a must have item even if you can afford it.

 

[bude_branch]

25 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

One disadvantage of the tier system is that you can end up without a must have item even if you can afford it.

 

 

This is probably what worries me most.  If I need a set of coaches (I model the SR), I need a full set not half a set so, unless I can be sure of getting the full set, then I don't buy anything.

[Willie Whizz]

What concerns me is that, as the level of price and the level of detail of models continues to increase, the levels of underlying build quality and reliability and their robustness in actual operational use and handling, and the availability of spares and servicing, seems (from my own experience and from numerous accounts on here) to be declining. We are being asked to pay more and more for products that are only truly worth so much extra if kept in a glass case and admired. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Willie Whizz

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

What concerns me is that, as the level of price and the level of detail of models continues to increase, the levels of underlying build quality and reliability and their robustness in actual operational use and handling, and the availability of spares and servicing, seems (from my own experience and from numerous accounts on here) to be declining. We are being asked to pay more and more for products that are only truly worth so much extra if kept in a glass case and admired. 

 

How much servicing does the average model need? When I visited Pete Watermans WCML layout, after 3 months of running on a massive track, with each loco covering several real miles each day, there were no dead locos. None at all. I'd suspect very few people put more miles on their models than he did.

[Robin Brasher]

The build quality of Hornby models varies. The motors of my H class and air smoothed Bulleid Pacific 'Royal Mail' burnt out shortly after running in and Hornby repaired them under guarantee. The gears of my T9 no longer engage with the driving wheels. These are production faults as evidenced under the topics in RM Web but not in the magazines. Some of the models like the Q class are so delicate that bits fall off when you open the box. On the other hand models like Princess Elizabeth and Bittern have given good service for years. The instructions often say you just need to oil the axles and connecting rods but you need to do more than that if a locomotive develops a fault.

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

These are production faults as evidenced under the topics in RM Web but not in the magazines

 

We can only comment of faults evident at the time of review, whether on that sample or proven through other means. The H Class I received was faulty (unrunnable) and its return requested for which I compiled a report. it's replacement never materialised so we never reviewed it, at that point I was told no others were faulty. 😅

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Balgrayhill said:

These things have been said since the first £100 loco, and most probably from LONG before, yet the hobby continues to attract new manufacturers, sinking considerable amounts of money into highly detailed products that by and large sell out.  Look at Accurascale's Deltic - large production run, almost completely sold out.

HOWEVER, though not purely down to rising prices, my annual tally of new Hornby locos this year will be precisely two, and that presupposes that they get the second one out by Dec.31st! 

 

In numerical terms, that's around 30% of my recent typical purchasing level, and well under 20% of what I was amassing at the height of my extravagance. Some, though not a huge amount,  of my budget, is being redirected to other providers. Total expenditure, across the board, this year actually looks like being a bit less than it would have been ten years ago. Higher prices easily wiped out by reducing the quantities bought.

 

I'm working on doing something similar at the supermarket!😃

 

In the meantime, over £3k has been spent building up a new camera outfit in as many months as I was anticipating it would take in years. A big chunk of my modelling budget lost to the hobby for a lack of stuff that interests me. One hobby loses, another gains.

 

Higher prices have influenced me in one way, though. Back when main-line loco prices were hovering around the £100 mark, I was still a bit of a devil for impulse buys with little or no real connection to my interests. I haven't gone wildly "off-piste" for at least two years now, a habit well-and-truly broken! 

 

Hornby will be restored in my favours when they make (for example) some different Bulleid Pacifics, a/s MN's in later condition, Rebuilts of both sizes with different tenders, etc.  Till then, most of the boxes crossing my doorstep look like being in colours other than red.... 

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

36 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

How much servicing does the average model need? When I visited Pete Watermans WCML layout, after 3 months of running on a massive track, with each loco covering several real miles each day, there were no dead locos. None at all. I'd suspect very few people put more miles on their models than he did.

You obviously don't own (m)any Hornby Rebuilt WCs or T9s.

 

Those break even when you aren't using them!

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

 

 

Great pictures of the Ukrainian War.

 

Back to topic.  I have ordered a Rule 1 rake of LNER coaches, that may be in short supply, for my model of the Swanage Railway from the Swanage Railway shop which is my local shop and is in tier 2. Will you please let me know if I have made the correct decision or should I have ordered directly from Hornby, which I assume is in tier 1 or a tier 1 shop wherever that exists? Whatever you reply I am going to keep my order with my local shop so as not to undermine it and not to upset a gentleman in admin.

 

Last year I ordered a Rule 1 rake of Coronation Scot coaches from the Swanage Railway shop. Hornby delivered some to the shop but told them that they were unable to deliver the others which seems strange as I would have thought people would have ordered the set. I think I ended up buying the rest directly from Hornby although they claimed they had run out of them.

 

You seem to be running some weird stuff down to Swanage, even by Rule One standards!😃

[boxbrownie]

50 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

How much servicing does the average model need? When I visited Pete Watermans WCML layout, after 3 months of running on a massive track, with each loco covering several real miles each day, there were no dead locos. None at all. I'd suspect very few people put more miles on their models than he did.

He uses Hornby O gauge stuff? 😄
 

Just kidding…….

Edited April 16, 2022 by boxbrownie

[SamThomas]

59 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

How much servicing does the average model need? When I visited Pete Watermans WCML layout, after 3 months of running on a massive track, with each loco covering several real miles each day, there were no dead locos. None at all. I'd suspect very few people put more miles on their models than he did.

Any actual data on that please Phil ?

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Any actual data on that please Phil ?

Well, the layout is 76 feet long so each circuit requires at least twice that and all trains ran it at least once an hour, 6 days a week, so you can do the maths. And at the end of the three months, there were (according to Pete) no worn out locos, something he was as suprised about as I was.

[Robin Brasher]

53 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

You seem to be running some weird stuff down to Swanage, even by Rule One standards!😃

If you think that is weird you should have seen what we were running on our club's Evercreech Junction layout. A4 Bittern has visited Swanage so I thought the Coronation Coaches would look better than the West Coast Mainline coaches. The coaches also reminded me of a card game of 'Speed' that I played with my family and one of the cards showed the beaver tail observation coach.

[PaulRhB]

New tier 1 exclusive paint sample. 
 

pic courtesy Mr E Hurst  

Edited April 16, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Robin Brasher]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

We can only comment of faults evident at the time of review, whether on that sample or proven through other means. The H Class I received was faulty (unrunnable) and its return requested for which I compiled a report. it's replacement never materialised so we never reviewed it, at that point I was told no others were faulty. 😅

If you have a look at the H class topic you will find that the models were manufactured with too much grease on the gears which was causing the motors to overheat.  One problem with magazine reviews is that they don't do long term testing. My H class ran well for about half an hour before it overheated and I had my T9 for a few years before the gears stopped engaging whereas they do still engage on 70 year old Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang locomotives.

 

Incidentally I cannot access the RM Web site on Google as the controls are blocked by huge advertisements and I have had to use Avast.

[Dunsignalling]

Just now, Robin Brasher said:

If you have a look at the H class topic you will find that the models were manufactured with too much grease on the gears which was causing the motors to overheat.  One problem with magazine reviews is that they don't do long term testing. My H class ran well for about half an hour before it overheated and I had my T9 for a few years before the gears stopped engaging whereas they do still engage on 70 year old Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang locomotives.

 

Incidentally I cannot access the RM Web site on Google as the controls are blocked by huge advertisements and I have had to use Avast.

 

The T9 gears themselves seem to be OK. At least, I've not needed to replace any.

 

They stop engaging because the motor mount falls apart due to Mazak rot and the worm is no longer held in contact with them.

 

John